Syrian Air Defence Force

Yes but matters of range and missiles which can be fired vs one attack considering during about 30 mn.

The point is that with an IADS they will have a better idea of what is happening... the launch of 300 cruise missiles could be seen as a serious attack... so any aircraft spotted in the distance that might have contributed to that attack would be worth targeting, but aircraft would also be scrambled to engage incoming missiles of such a large attacking force too, while most of the cruise missiles in the end will largely be shot down by short and medium range weapons most of the time.

When numbers appear to make it a big attack then launch platforms become targets to reduce the enemies capacity to continue the attack...

Syrian NextGen Buk-M2 Defense System Repels Israeli Attack - Report (VIDEO)

On Sunday, the Israeli Air Forces carried out an attack against the Damascus International Airport. A Russian military spokesman confirmed that Syrian-operated air-defense missile systems destroyed seven Israeli missiles, successfully repelling the attack.

According to the Syrian Muraselon news outlet, Syrian Air Defense Forces on Sunday afternoon used the latest version of the Buk-M2 Air Defense Missile System to repulse the Israeli attack.

The following video provided by Muraselon captures the moment a Buk-M2 fired twice, reportedly intercepting two missiles fired by Tel Aviv toward Syrian territory.



The Buk-M2 surface-to-air missile system provides long range and high accuracy to ward off enemy attacks, according to Muraselon.

Israeli missile attack occurred at 1:32 pm Moscow time from the Mediterranean Sea by four IAF F-16 fighters launched several guided missiles.

Later a Russian military spokesman confirmed that Syrian air defences had repulsed the Israeli attack, which was aimed at the Damascus International Airport, southwest of the Syrian capital.

According to the Russian military, Syrian-operated Pantsir and Buk air defence systems destroyed seven Israeli missiles.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201901211071660619-syrian-next-generation-defense-system-repels-israeli-attack/

after the war, Syria if it has any money to do so or puts aside some money for procurement will most likely be spend on air defence and aircraft as both will be in a sorry state. Its navy has seen very little action during the war and should still be relatively in tact although could have suffered from neglect due to the conflict but basic patrolling along with Russia forces should be enough. Ground forces will have to make do with whats left over from the war, and any donations given by Russia. For short range AD they will most likely keep soviet systems in place but could also upgrade such systems as ZSU-23-4, Zu-23-2 with new radar and MANPAD or strela 10, as has been done by other countries. The 52-k (85mm) and KS-19 (100mm) could be upgraded similar to the Iranian Sa-ir system. ZSU-57-2 turned into iranian Bahman system, and any left over Zu-23-2 could also be used as Mesbah-1 system, these could all be done fairly cheaply and with help from Iran. The systems such as S-125, Sa-6, Sa-2, Sa-5 could be upgraded with help from, Russia, Belarus, Iran and China, but missiles stock would be dependent on what Russia has left in stock if any, as they have been shipping masses of these stocks into Syria. Syria if they have any money to procure will most likely buy more S-300, Buk-M2, Pantsir, and maybe Buk-M3, If there lucky S-300VM. its very unlikely to buy/receive S-400 or Tor-M2 due to the cost, and Israel throwing a hissy fit about S-400. Although a good radar network is equally important to network everything together. And although a decent AD network also needs the aircraft element of AD, buying ground based AD systems are cheaper buy and maintain than aircraft and are purely self defence system which makes it more difficult to other countries to complain or place sanctions, in compared to aircraft which can be used as a means of attack/aggression.

anyone elses views very much welcome

@d_taddie2


Few country in the world, defence system can be purely "defensive".  Japan and Germany are the exceptions. But here, their defence need completely met by USA.  Even to the point of nuclear umbrella. Russia and Syria situation different. Russia wants to be part of  " World economy", and for this reason can not antagonise the USA.  So when it comes to Syria, it has to compromise over it's defence. It can not fulfill that function fully, like USA  and Germany or Japan. There was a time, when Soviet Union had a separate economy to the west. Not sensitive to sanctions. Not part of multinational economic order. Then it could fully defend Cuba. Including nuclear umbrella.

Iran's position, is now similar to the position of Soviets, during cold War. For this reason Iran can defend Syria without compromise or collusion with the west. So Syria and Iran can develop a defence policy, not purely defensive and more efficient. Lebanon's Hezbollah not being attacked by Usrael. Why? Because it will retaliate. Russia can not replace Iran role in Lebanon. And as it is, can not fully protect Syria. Iran can. But not by pure defensive measures. So if You ask me, then I have to say, that certainly Iran can help. But what of Russia in Syria? The answer is that Russia does not have to supply air defence to Syria. It does not have to supply planes that can not shoot Turk or Usrael planes. In fact it has to do very little or can do little. Leave defence of Syria to Syrians by allowing basic defence industry and some offensive Rockets. This Iran can build. Russia indirectly offering funds. Then Russia just defending own naval base only and neutral. Having economic relation with Syria and Usrael and EU and USA. And Iran having economic relation with Russia and China. Russia's new geopolitical position dictating new realities.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:after the war, Syria if it has any money to do so or puts aside some money for procurement will most likely be spend on air defence and aircraft as both will be in a sorry state. Its navy has seen very little action during the war and should still be relatively in tact although could have suffered from neglect due to the conflict but basic patrolling along with Russia forces should be enough. Ground forces will have to make do with whats left over from the war, and any donations given by Russia. For short range AD they will most likely keep soviet systems in place but could also upgrade such systems as ZSU-23-4, Zu-23-2 with new radar and MANPAD or strela 10, as has been done by other countries. The 52-k (85mm) and KS-19 (100mm) could be upgraded similar to the Iranian Sa-ir system. ZSU-57-2 turned into iranian Bahman system, and any left over Zu-23-2 could also be used as Mesbah-1 system, these could all be done fairly cheaply and with help from Iran. The systems such as S-125, Sa-6, Sa-2, Sa-5 could be upgraded with help from, Russia, Belarus, Iran and China, but missiles stock would be dependent on what Russia has left in stock if any, as they have been shipping masses of these stocks into Syria. Syria if they have any money to procure will most likely buy more S-300, Buk-M2, Pantsir, and maybe Buk-M3, If there lucky S-300VM. its very unlikely to buy/receive S-400 or Tor-M2 due to the cost, and Israel throwing a hissy fit about S-400. Although a good radar network is equally important to network everything together. And although a decent AD network also needs the aircraft element of AD, buying ground based AD systems are cheaper buy and maintain than aircraft and are purely self defence system which makes it more difficult to other countries to complain or place sanctions, in compared to aircraft which can be used as a means of attack/aggression.

anyone elses views very much welcome

do you mean that tor m2 is more expensive than Buk?

not exactly sure on costs but i have seen many mentions on the forum of Tor being expensive, and Buk M3 has far greater range than Tor and with limited long range systems that will likely be in service after the war they will more likely want a longer ranged system thats cheaper than S-300VM and S-400, also Syria currently operate the Buk M1/M2 so the system will be similar to what they already use, so likely less training involved. as for costs maybe someone can shed more light, but what ive seen mentioned many say its an expensive system (tor)

A bit of a catch 22... the TOR system is expensive but also quite capable, but while the latest models are supposed to have a range of 32km it is in a different category to the BUK which is firmly a medium range system.

It is interesting because the SA-6 KUB was a rocket/ramjet powered missile, and it was replaced initially by the SA-11 BUK which is a pure rocket powered missile, then the SA-17 BUK and the current BUK which are both rocket powered, but for a medium and for long range missiles I suspect it is only a matter of time before they look at combined rocket scramjet because scramjets offer speed performance above rockets unlike ramjets, which does not offer advantages in speed but only in range generally.

Scramjet offers speed and range advantages and might be the basis for the replacement of the BUK...

Ironically although the TOR is not cheap to buy, the missiles are very simple and cheap command guided missiles so a TOR system together with trailer mounted missiles ready to launch could offer the best solution for point defence... with vertical launch the trailers can be simple and can engage targets from any direction without needing to be pointed properly before hand... you don't need to cover all directions and hope the threat does not come from one way like Patriot, or need to be able to point them where you need them like Pantsir... makes the trailers simpler and cheaper yet offers the best coverage.

Pantsir also uses cheap simple command guided missiles that can be produced locally in enormous numbers if need be.

https://youtu.be/FAxkcPoLYcQ

https://youtu.be/W9wAfqBd_T0

https://youtu.be/KdjpaDJZNxM

Specialist defensive or offensive weapons, only useful in predictable or non evolving situations. Most modern battle situations are rapidly evolving with unexpected threats. Also it is not always  possible to defend against some threats effectively, even if old tactics or weapon  are used . Simple bullet still kills on battlefield. Even if we fully expect it. The only effective answer, is a bullet in return. The cost of simple unguided rocket or artillery shell is always lower than guided SAM. They are wealthier and can out produce us in symmetric battles. Gone are the days of pistols at dawn at ten paces. This pure defensive policy did not stop Syria oil pipe, from being blown up. Because Syria had SAM. Some SAM, still useful against expected air threats. But does not form a rational defence policy against new weapons or offensive  and unexpected tactics by enemy, as well as relying on numerical superiority. Syria can not be defended using this irrational policy.

There must be a good chance that Syria might buy Iranian SAMs rather than Russian on cost grounds.

No. Iran and Russia should not play cards early and reveal hand. They will soon know frequency and able to form defence against this expected threat. Same problem with countering with symmetric long range AA missile against them. They have more of them and they can innovate more quickly by spending money, we don't have. Best save this weapons for critical period. Best answer is retaliate offensively by missiles. Not waste too much money on jets or SAM.  Putting pressure on these segment of armed forces and revealing our hand. They should not expect the Spanish inquisition.

nomadski wrote:
No. Iran and Russia should not play cards early and reveal hand. They will soon know frequency and able to form defence against this expected threat. Same problem with countering with symmetric long range AA missile against them. They have more of them and they can innovate more quickly by spending money, we don't have. Best save this weapons for critical period. Best answer is retaliate offensively by missiles. Not waste too much money on jets or SAM.  Putting pressure on these segment of armed forces and revealing our hand.

I was thinking long term, after the war is over as per d_taddei2's original question. Mind you its really an insurgency rather than a war.

Isos wrote:

JohninMK wrote:There must be a good chance that Syria might buy Iranian SAMs rather than Russian on cost grounds.

With what money ? Russia saved them and helps them in any possible way. Iran not that much. If they turn to Iran rather than Russia, Assad will have an "incident" the next day. Russian made it clear Assad is not an important piece of the game.

OK I used the word "buy" when I should have used "get".

Syria is part of Iran's forward defence network as has been shown by Iranian support to date. Why would that change as Israel is still there as a threat? Iran will want to keep its influence in Syria, the cost of a few AD batteries is peanuts.

No. No Iranian AD. THE AD is like girl virginity. If you use it, then you loose it. I don't think Russia will turn away from Syria, if Syria more close to Iran. It is not a question of Assad. But the Shia and Hezb. They can not replaced so easy. And Russia loose Iran, if fight Hezb. And loose Syria too. Loose loose game. No Assad needed by both Iran and Russia. Defence policy of Syria and position of Russia not rational or tenable. Assad can " get" plenty Iranian unguided rocket short range. Problem solved. Peace.

https://youtu.be/LnF1OtP2Svk

Isos wrote:If it was "peanuts" they would have more of them for their own forces.

With the new sanctions it will be even more difficult. Not to mention that Israel is free to bomb everything they want in Syria.

They can send shitty system that cost nothing but that won't help stop Israel that uses state of art missiles and jets.

Most basic air defence system right now that can stop israeli missiles is pantsir and it cost 15 million. Iran can't do better than that for less money.

You are missing my point. At the moment Iran's help to Syria is costing them a lot more than the money for SAMs. After the war is over that will end and, in the great scheme of things, as I said, SAMs in Syria are peanuts for a forward AD system protecting Iran as well as Syria.

Since when has sanctions had any real effect on Iranian supplies to Syria?

I thought older SAM systems and Buks were having an effect on IAF incoming. Anyway, once the war is over and that is what we are talking about here NOT NOW, its a whole new ballgame with Israel.

Let's not go that far

Iran has an economy. It's more or less an Autarky. But what makes Iran's economy rather weak on the outside is it's religious banking structure and the IRGC companies

The religious banking system has created massive infrastructure and business structure. Thing is, they don't pay taxes and there really isn't much of a way of taxing them in the future as they don't have proper documentation of their assets. But it accounts for approximately 20% of Iran's GDP. That's about 20% a Grey economy (smaller than Russia's 38%). Now add in IRGC business and it's a lot the same. So Iran's budget is small but the military aspect (IRGC branch, not army) has tens of billions of dollars in disposable income. They could in theory finance the whole thing (Iran's overall defence) and even build assets in Syria. The government not so much.

This is the problem with Iran. It's disjointed in terms that central command doesn't actually have much power. There are two other groups in Iran who hold almost a quarter of Iran's overall economy and the government has no control over them or access to that money. If they did, it would solve a lot of Iran's problems. But may create new ones with other people fighting to keep power. IRGC won't give that up. They are completely seperate from Iran's overall military.

Pantsir is not a cheap system to buy, but its operational costs are actually cheaper than any western system... the missiles it uses are cheap command guided missiles with no expensive seeker or onboard guidance system that is destroyed with each use...

I rather suspect the Russians could develop a cheap simple short ranged missile that Syria could produce itself in enormous numbers... I rather suspect such a missile would be very popular in the region with Iran and Iraq wanting them too... the Russians wouldn't make a lot of money on producing the missiles, but with royalties for production the missiles would get made and they would make money too.

The Russians could make improved models with higher tech materials resulting in higher performance missiles which might cost a little more but could be used by one vehicle in each battery for more difficult targets... they could develop trailers that carry ready to launch missiles with no electronics or expensive components except servo motors to point it in the required direction so when it is empty it does not matter if it gets hit by the enemy.

The vehicles themselves can retain their missiles during engagements and use them last... perhaps with a rivetment or protected underground building they could drive in to when they are out of missiles while they reload... I mean it would be like digging a deep hole in the ground and putting a concrete roof on it... you could give it dozens of entrances and park all sorts of stuff in there during a raid... make it 20m deep and not many air forces could bother you down there...

Satellite image reveals Syria’s S-300 system is combat ready

BEIRUT, LEBANON (11:20 P.M.) – A new satellite photo of the Syrian military’s S-300 system revealed that it is currently combat ready.

In a photo posted on the Russian publication, Avia.Pro, the S-300 system can be seen combat ready, despite previous reports alleging that Syria was not using it.

“A commercial spacecraft was able to capture in the images the deployment area of ​​the S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems in Syria. Satellite images appeared for the first time in six months, and, notably, they were taken after a number of countries criticized the Russian air defense systems, saying that Russian-made systems were completely removed from Syria,” the publication said.

According to the publication, “the S-300 air defense launchers are still in a combat position, obviously ready to immediately repel air strikes within their radius of destruction. Among other things, experts pay attention to the fact that the S-300 deployment area is fully equipped, which indicates that the S-300 will continue to be here for a long time.”



It is not clear how long this S-300 unit has been deployed in this part of the country, but it does confirm that the Syrian Armed Forces are still actively using this Russian-made air defense system.

Much of the criticism regarding the S-300 system has come from Chinese publications, who argue that Syria has been more successful using their radar units than Russia’s.

Despite the arguments about which country’s equipment works better, the Syrian military has maintained that they use both for maximum protection of their airspace.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/satellite-image-reveals-syrias-s-300-system-is-combat-ready/

Assume this is their S-300 knock off. Wonder if it interfaces with the Russian/Syrian IADS?

spriters
@spriters11
3h
Israeli media: Syria will replace the Russian S-200 system with the Iranian Bavar-373 air defense system.

Over the past 16 months, Israel has made every effort to prevent the transfer of this Iranian system to Syria. It didn't work out.

Hypothetical. We have to deal with actual facts now on the ground. Are there 400 Su30 with pilot on the ground now? No, there are 2000 destroyed centrifuges and a murdered General and half a dozen murdered scientists and a dozen destroyed ships and 1800 specific sanctions and.............

Also I support Iran providing Bavar AD to Syria. As long as Iran has more advanced system, incase of American or Usrael attack against mainland Iran. Also this modern system only to be used in case of massed attacks by aircraft, justifying their use.

The Usraelis are dying to find out the operational use of such systems. Turn it on baby, it turns me on.... Best resistance forces use Rockets and drones and BM against Usrael mainland. In offensive operation. They have called it a change from strategic defence to strategic offence. Let them turn it on, and turn us on instead.  I believe that the offensive armaments are on their way.

https://youtu.be/ik6UIh5nMHg

Time now for the Usraelis to play tree soldiers. LOL.

JohninMK wrote:Assume this is their S-300 knock off. Wonder if it interfaces with the Russian/Syrian IADS?

spriters
@spriters11
3h
Israeli media: Syria will replace the Russian S-200 system with the Iranian Bavar-373 air defense system.

Over the past 16 months, Israel has made every effort to prevent the transfer of this Iranian system to Syria. It didn't work out.

Not sure what missile the Bavar-373 will come with but stats below.
Operational
range
Sayyad-2: 40–45 km
Sayyad-2C: up to 75km
Sayyad-3: 120-150 km
Sayyad-4: 210 km
Flight altitude
Sayyad-2: up to 27 km
Sayyad-2C: up to 30 km
Sayyad-3: 27-30 km
Sayyad-4: 30-40 km
Maximum speed
Sayyad-2: Mach 3.6-4
Sayyad-2C: Mach 4.5+
Sayyad-3: Mach 4.5-5.1

Iran had a multitude of AD systems and it's s double edged scenario, Iran gets to test it's AD systems and make any adjustments, while Israel gets to see how effective Iran's systems are and see any weaknesses. Although Iran has a lot less to lose, an AD system costs less than any aircraft Israel has so worse case for Iran they lose and AD system a few troops, Israel worse case lose an aircraft and a pilot. Israel comes off worse although I highly doubt Israel will test to that capacity and most likely play it safe sitting in its own or Lebanon air space and fire missiles from there. In which case Iran could be the one who has more to lose. But either way there is no substitute for combat experience.

I’m very interested in seeing the performance of it. Essentially going up against one the most potent and modern AFs in the world. If it has the beans, israel will be forced to abandon its go it alone rhetoric...and its strategy. Others too for that matter.
Was this system built with Russian input and assistance?