The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

Nazi government crushing Ukranian economy into a ground ... nice job bandits

National Bank of Ukraine has worsened the forecast drop in GDP to 11.6%

Viktor wrote:Nazi government crushing Ukranian economy into a ground ... nice job bandits

National Bank of Ukraine has worsened the forecast drop in GDP to 11.6%

It has to be much larger than that I think. Simply put, Ukraine lost a whole republic (2 mil tax payers, major businesses, huge agricultural land, tourism) and 3.5 mil people (or more) in east Ukraine which holds roughly 25% or more of Ukraines industrial base. Once again, more taxpayers. There is no way that they only dropped 11.6%, unless they count the IMF loans.

sepheronx wrote:

Viktor wrote:Nazi government crushing Ukranian economy into a ground ... nice job bandits

National Bank of Ukraine has worsened the forecast drop in GDP to 11.6%

It has to be much larger than that I think.  Simply put, Ukraine lost a whole republic (2 mil tax payers, major businesses, huge agricultural land, tourism) and 3.5 mil people (or more) in east Ukraine which holds roughly 25% or more of Ukraines industrial base.  Once again, more taxpayers.    There is no way that they only dropped 11.6%, unless they count the IMF loans.

I agree, I think they still count Donbass and Lugansk as before. Them alone make just under 20% GDP.

Not sure what this means on the ground

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The leaders of the Normandy Quartet countries managed to agree on the procedure of the withdrawal of heavy weapons in eastern Ukraine, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Friday. "We were able to agree on the withdrawal of heavy weapons," Merkel said following Normandy Four talks in Paris. "There is hope for progress. We are moving toward each other," Merkel added.

On the whole, the results of the Friday Normandy Four talks in Paris set a positive tone, Angela Merkel said adding that she was satisfied with what participants achieved during the meeting.

"I believe that we have achieved today all that we could achieve. The process is still underway. There is hope that despite some delay, certain progress has been made," Merkel said following Normandy Four talks in Paris. "On the whole, we can speak about a positive tone, that we managed to achieve during the today meeting and could discuss serious issues," the chancellor added.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151002/1027939405/merkel-weapons-withdrawal-ukraine.html#ixzz3nRCnYVYT

OSCE making some noise about seeing TOS-1 in the LPR hands.

International monitors say they have found a new type of Russian-made rocket system in rebel-held eastern Ukraine.

The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) spotted the powerful TOS-1 Buratino multiple rocket launcher in Luhansk.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34425454

higurashihougi wrote:

Erk wrote:OSCE making some noise about seeing TOS-1 in the LPR hands.

International monitors say they have found a new type of Russian-made rocket system in rebel-held eastern Ukraine.

The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) spotted the powerful TOS-1 Buratino multiple rocket launcher in Luhansk.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34425454

Well, OSCE... and BBC...

Dunno whether I have severe discrimination against these names, but that makes me stop reading the full articles.

And let me guess, their cameras ran out of batteries again just before they tried to p photogRaph them?

Kiev getting the paperwork in place!

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The Kiev forces started to withdraw heavy artillery of less than 100mm caliber from the line of contact in the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbass on Saturday, a spokesman for the Ukrainian General Staff said Saturday.

"The process began on October 3. The withdrawal process started with drawing up lists of weapons and equipment, which must be removed from the contact line," Vladislav Seleznev told RIA Novosti.

Earlier in the day, the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) began the pullout.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151003/1027959980/kiev-withdrawing-heavy-arms-in-donbass.html#ixzz3nUwhtQGC

Viktor wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Viktor wrote:Nazi government crushing Ukranian economy into a ground ... nice job bandits

National Bank of Ukraine has worsened the forecast drop in GDP to 11.6%

It has to be much larger than that I think.  Simply put, Ukraine lost a whole republic (2 mil tax payers, major businesses, huge agricultural land, tourism) and 3.5 mil people (or more) in east Ukraine which holds roughly 25% or more of Ukraines industrial base.  Once again, more taxpayers.    There is no way that they only dropped 11.6%, unless they count the IMF loans.

I agree, I think they still count Donbass and Lugansk as before.  Them alone make just under 20% GDP.  

Don't forget this is with half those regions simply barred from the stats and without Crimea. In reality Ukraine is in the gutter. It will take a lot of time to get the country back in working order and this is exactly why they won't be able to do it. Cooking the books can only help you so much (just watch Greece although on a different predicament).

"Troll factory" in Ukraine. Mighty Internet warriors.

Militarov wrote:
"Troll factory" in Ukraine. Mighty Internet warriors.

Is that themess I see on that screen?

flamming_python wrote:

2. What is happening in the Republics? Everything is finished, we fought for restoration of the oligarchs neo-slave system, we were used and anybody who does not play by the system rules will be liquidated.

I'm so sick and tired of this rubbish, how much more is there to take?

The war was not against the 'oligarchs neo-slave system' - that was actually more the Maidan line (which ofc succeeded only in strengthening it)

The war was against the illegal Ukrainian government and its unconstitutional authorization of military force against the Donbass. More generally, it was also against Ukrainian ultra-nationalism and chauvinism against Russian-speakers and the Russian language in general.
But FFS, what it was not, I repeat, was against the 'oligarchial' system, or capitalism, or whatever the hell else. Are those the slogans that the Donbass's population rose up for in March? That those same people stopped BMDs with their hands and feet, and confronted armed soldiers for in April and May?
No, it was not. So stop twisting the aims of their struggle. Akhmetov was even actively courted by the DNR authorities - and long before Stelkov resigned and Russia entered the fray, I'll have you know too. The anti-oligarch line was only ever pursued by Mozgovoj and several other (influential) figures. It was not the reason for the uprising, nor the reason that most of the foreign volunteers had to come and join the fight.

You are quoting from a post I made, so I will reply. If that quote by Dubovoy so enrages you, then instead of ranting here, then rant at him and tell him to stop "twisting the aims of their struggle". As he is a fighter and been wounded in action, I suggest that it is also very directly his struggle as well. Sent your complaints here https://vk.com/id205292010

Viktor wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Viktor wrote:Nazi government crushing Ukranian economy into a ground ... nice job bandits

National Bank of Ukraine has worsened the forecast drop in GDP to 11.6%

It has to be much larger than that I think.  Simply put, Ukraine lost a whole republic (2 mil tax payers, major businesses, huge agricultural land, tourism) and 3.5 mil people (or more) in east Ukraine which holds roughly 25% or more of Ukraines industrial base.  Once again, more taxpayers.    There is no way that they only dropped 11.6%, unless they count the IMF loans.

I agree, I think they still count Donbass and Lugansk as before.  Them alone make just under 20% GDP.  

No.

Crimea and Novorossia are not part of their statistic. Otherwise fall would be much bigger.

Those numbers are for territory that is under Kiev control only.

"International monitors say they have spotted a new kind of Russian weapons system in rebel-held Ukraine this week, possible evidence of Moscow's continued interest in Ukraine even as it focuses on Syria. The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which is monitoring a ceasefire in eastern Ukraine, reported that its monitors had seen a mobile TOS-1 'Buratino' weapons system for the first time. The Buratino is equipped with thermobaric warheads which spread a flammable liquid around a target and then ignite it. It can destroy several city blocks in one strike and cause indiscriminate damage. Only Russia produces the system and it was not exported to Ukraine before the conflict broke out, according to IHS Jane's Group and the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which track arms exports.

The OSCE's findings are embarrassing for the Kremlin, which has turned down its rhetoric on Ukraine and shifted attention to Syria, where it has begun air strikes. The report comes before President Vladimir Putin holds talks in Paris on Friday with the leaders of Germany, France and Ukraine on the peace process. The Russian defense ministry did not reply to written questions from Reuters about whether Ukrainian rebels were supplied with the weapon or where it had been exported.

Russia denies its military is even in Ukraine. But there have been numerous signs that Moscow backed the rebels with troops and equipment. Reuters reporters spotted two burnt-out tanks last year which military experts identified as Russian army tanks in rebel-held territory. Alexander Hug, deputy chief monitor of the OSCE monitoring mission to Ukraine, told Reuters by phone monitors had spotted the Buratino at a rebel training area in the village of Kruhlyk.



"We saw the weapon on that training ground," Hug said. "Both sides agreed a year ago to withdraw heavy weaponry from the line of contact. Having them near the line of contact is of course a concern as this weapon should be in storage and not be used." Hug said the weapons system was "indiscriminate and very destructive." The Popular Mechanics website called TOS-1 "hell on earth" for anyone it targeted.

According to IHS Jane's and the Stockholm Institute's unofficial arms transfers database, Russia has only exported the system to Azerbaijan, Iraq and Kazakhstan. Ukraine said it did not possess the Buratino. "We have not got them and we have never had it in service," Vladislav Seleznyov, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military, told Reuters. "The Russian army has it. It was used against us in the area of Donetsk airport."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-idUSKCN0RW0UL20151002

I wont comment anything myself ill just say: "Hmm..."

No photo showing the system and identifiable location, no truth to the statement.

Militarov wrote:"International monitors say they have spotted a new kind of Russian weapons system in rebel-held Ukraine this week, possible evidence of Moscow's continued interest in Ukraine even as it focuses on Syria. The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which is monitoring a ceasefire in eastern Ukraine, reported that its monitors had seen a mobile TOS-1 'Buratino' weapons system for the first time. The Buratino is equipped with thermobaric warheads which spread a flammable liquid around a target and then ignite it. It can destroy several city blocks in one strike and cause indiscriminate damage. Only Russia produces the system and it was not exported to Ukraine before the conflict broke out, according to IHS Jane's Group and the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which track arms exports.

The OSCE's findings are embarrassing for the Kremlin, which has turned down its rhetoric on Ukraine and shifted attention to Syria, where it has begun air strikes. The report comes before President Vladimir Putin holds talks in Paris on Friday with the leaders of Germany, France and Ukraine on the peace process. The Russian defense ministry did not reply to written questions from Reuters about whether Ukrainian rebels were supplied with the weapon or where it had been exported.

Russia denies its military is even in Ukraine. But there have been numerous signs that Moscow backed the rebels with troops and equipment. Reuters reporters spotted two burnt-out tanks last year which military experts identified as Russian army tanks in rebel-held territory. Alexander Hug, deputy chief monitor of the OSCE monitoring mission to Ukraine, told Reuters by phone monitors had spotted the Buratino at a rebel training area in the village of Kruhlyk.



"We saw the weapon on that training ground," Hug said. "Both sides agreed a year ago to withdraw heavy weaponry from the line of contact. Having them near the line of contact is of course a concern as this weapon should be in storage and not be used." Hug said the weapons system was "indiscriminate and very destructive." The Popular Mechanics website called TOS-1 "hell on earth" for anyone it targeted.

According to IHS Jane's and the Stockholm Institute's unofficial arms transfers database, Russia has only exported the system to Azerbaijan, Iraq and Kazakhstan. Ukraine said it did not possess the Buratino. "We have not got them and we have never had it in service," Vladislav Seleznyov, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military, told Reuters. "The Russian army has it. It was used against us in the area of Donetsk airport."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-idUSKCN0RW0UL20151002

I wont comment anything myself ill just say: "Hmm..."

sniff sniff... do I detect the tang of fresh bovine excrement?...

Does anyone have a legitimate kill list of the people and organizations that were wrecked in Debaltsevo ??

i ask this because having an all out war was never the plan, so what incentive was there in attacking Debaltsevo ? I know for sure, Isa Munaev - the Chechen who led the Second Chechen war was there. He got a nice death. There were reports of foreign fighters there too. I would like to know, but never found anything of this sort.

War in Donbass is over. I have mixed feelings about the outcome.

What is this 'neo-slave holding system' that we are discussing here ?? I fail to see what has changed. Please someone help me out.

For one last time -

SLAVA NOVOROSSIO !!

https://petition.president.gov.ua/petition/11936

Akula971 wrote:
What is this 'neo-slave holding system' that we are discussing here ?? I fail to see what has changed. Please someone help me out.

I can explain, sort of, but only in the form of a history lesson, so please excuse if this is essentially all known to you, and anybody else, which I am sure it is.
I admit that I had not heard this specific phrase used until Dubovoy used it a few days back. I presume he is saying that this became a war for business interests, not the people. It is of course possible to say that if some oligarch gets rich, then commerce is working and we all, or most of us, have jobs and increase our standard of living, essentially normal capitalism, something I am part of with all my shares in ventures in Siberia... However, the issue that some have seen is that of the existance of oligarchs, not of capitalism per se in some form. The west once had oligarchs, normally called plutocrats back in the days, the Vanderbilts and Rockefellers etc. These were like old style medieval barons and their workers bonded laborers, slaves in all but name, and with the ability to move from one "slave" owner to another, or none, but then have no work and your life will quickly slip down the sewer in societies with no safety net. Not all these oligarch/plutocrats were scum, but the philinthropists were rare. With the rise of socialism, in different forms, and trade unions, the plutocrats needed to fade into the background and change their ways. Today they still exist to an extent, Bill Gates was essentially a plutocrat, but not some "robber baron" stamping the peasants faces into the ground, and mostly today the very large corporations are not owned by one individual, but groups, hedge funds etc. In 1991 when the state collapsed a number of very unscrupulous individuals, mostly with crimminal minds, took the opprtunity to steal state property and become very powerful and rich, the oligarchs. Some still exist and live on the riches they stole, others have risen over the years from the swamp they invest, particulary in Ukraine, probably the most corrupt country in the world. The oligarchs control peoples lives, and politicians, to an extent that simply does not exist in other countries. They in fact have become the politicians, Poroshenko for example and there is no normal life, everything is owned by one or other oligarch, it is medieval, it is one of the truely bad things that was destroyed in the 1917 revolution and has returned with a vengence. Some in Donbass see what happens and have made the conclusion that this war became to preserve the business interests of oligarchs and their friends, at the expence of the blood of those who fight and the population. This is a point that of course can be debated, but the fact of the matter is that some fighters do see this as a war for oligarchs, Mozgovoi said so openly and paid the price, which rather suggests he was wcorrect, otherwise why kill him. Others, like Dubovoy, are now saying in public what they once kept to themselves. Also remember that a few months back "Rusych" returned to Russia saying they were sick of what was happening in Donbass, so, I wonder what they were sick of. That these are fighters who are saying these things should cause people, particulary on military networks, to pay attention. The rants of sofa warriors, me included, count as nothing to the words of those who have fought and been wounded. Anybody can disagree with them of course, that is normal, but the fighters have, IMO, moral superiority.

flamming_python wrote:

I deliberately avoided quoting your name in my post because I wanted to take a stand against the point in general, and not to attack you or anyone else in particular.

I don't know this guy either and I didn't know he was a vet. But like I said, I don't want to attack anyone, I wanted to just make the point in general - 'uprising against oligarchs' was not a prime motive for the majority of local people who rebelled nor the majority of those who came to join them in their struggle.

And really such naivety and slogans are best reserved for the Maidan zombies (ever misled, ever fools) - not for the supporters of Novorussia. If your illusions about the world rule your expectations and goals, your parallel world will sooner or later collide with the realities of Realpolitik and then it will be shattered and so too will you be. See the world for what it is first, accept it and how it works, and only then try and change it.

The survival of Novorussia was guaranteed by Russia last fall, with that came Russia's patronage too - and Russia is certainly in no crusade to rid the world of oligarchs.

I'll refer to my reply to Akula971 in my post № 22 about why I think Dubovoy made his remarks. History tells us now it was with medieval robber barons and princes and kings who had all the power, and some do not want all that garbage to continue in Ukraine. These oligarchs may have been curbed in Russia, tho there are still a few who need curbing further as they live their luxurious lives on the back of property they stole, and some who lost all in 1991 do not forget who stole from them, from the people. This is not some new 1917 Bolshevik revolution, it is to bring a system to Ukraine that is seen as normal to any other country. It is not normal in most countries to have a system such as exists in Ukraine, and irrespective of what Akhmetov has or has not done, it is seen by some as simply unacceptable that such a person, and all the rest of course, can wield such power and influence. These oligarchs corrupt the normal commercial and political process and as such their continued existance is a block to normal life and the ending of this war in a way that will be beneficial not only to Donbass, but all Ukraine. Notice that while I join with shouts for Kiev to fall, I do not join with shouts for Ukraine to totally collapse as a state, as that will be bad for everybody, bad for Russia as we do not need Zimbabwe or Congo in Europe and right on the border. The EU or US will not pick up the pieces if Ukraine collapses, so who does that leave realistically....

Gennadiy Dubovoy was a fighter/journalist with "Sparta", nearly all the photos and video you have seen of "Sparta" were made by him. He left "Sparta" and was then wounded during the fighting for Nikishino. The photos and video you have seen of "Viking" this summer on the Volnovakha front are from Dubovoy. It is a little surpising you are not aware of this.

Yesterday at camp of Ukrops 54th Brigade at Cherkassy in Dnepropetrovsk oblast, a tank caught fire and exploded killing four and wounding a number of others http://news-front.info/2015/10/04/vsu-v-shoke-ukrainskij-tank-vzorvalsya-pryamo-v-lagere-54-j-brigady/

Putin’s Global Game Changer

Contrary to the expectations of many experts who were predicting a “second Munich” from Vladimir Putin in New York, the Russian president made no grandiose proclamations during his address to the UN General Assembly. In fact, he was outwardly far milder than one might have imagined. By comparison, Obama’s emotional speech, which was replete with strident but unsubstantiated claims, seemed sad, and occasionally even comical. For example, there was a passage about the ouster of Assad, but then less than a day later the US position flip-flopped …

After the speeches, Putin and Obama sat down for a nearly two-hour conversation, after which the US president could not even rouse himself sufficiently to emerge to speak to journalists. The Russian president conducted an exhaustive press conference on his own.

What is the takeaway from those last three days in September, which, according to many observers, lay to rest the idea of a unipolar world?

First of all, the US is making profound changes in its attitude to Poroshenko’s regime in Ukraine, assembling a reserve set of “politicians” and revoking its green light for military action. Incumbent PM Yatsenyuk is more likely to be replaced by Sergey Lyovochkin, former head of ex-president Yanukovych’ administration and memner of “Opposition Bloc”. Given the pacification of Kiev and the Southeast in accordance with the Kremlin’s terms, the US withdrawal from Ukraine – and the withdrawal of Ukraine itself into the shadow of the world’s agenda – the US wager on the “Opposition Bloc” makes perfect sense.

The very next day in Minsk, Aleksandr Zakharchenko and Leonid Kuchma confirmed that weapons of a caliber less than 100 mm. would be pulled back 15 km. behind the front line, which actually signifies an end to the hostilities. For the preceding seven months no one had been able to reach an agreement on this point. At the same time, Kiev admitted that it had committed war crimes in the Donbass: several stories on this topic appeared over the course of a single day in the Ukrainian media, from the admission that Oles Buzina had been killed by commandos from a special forces unit of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, to an acknowledgment of crimes committed by “territorial” battalions. Obviously this would not have happened without an order from the American embassy. To this must be added the resignation of Evelyn Farkas, the Pentagon’s top official overseeing military relations with Russia and Ukraine. Ms. Farkas had held that position for five years. She will officially leave her post in late October. It should be noted that this senior official had insisted on retaliatory measures against Russia’s policy in Ukraine and had also facilitated the provision of financial aid to Kiev.

And all this occurred less than a day after Vladimir Putin’s speech in New York and his meeting with Obama. That means that all these events were the result of a deal. And in fact, these are only the first fruits. Clearly there is more to come. But the trend is clear – the US has acknowledged the legitimacy of Russian claims that Ukraine is within Russia’s sphere of interest.

russiajets-608903Second, the situation in and around Syria changed dramatically over the course of one day. The US is no longer insisting on Assad’s resignation. The US is not opposing Russian military involvement in operations against ISIL and is prepared to enter into immediate negotiations with Russia about the formation of a united front against terrorists. Russia’s air force launched strikes on ISIL strongholds after Assad asked Moscow for military assistance, and the Federation Council approved the use of the Russian air force against the terrorists in Syria. That would have been inconceivable even on the morning of Sept. 28. But only a day and a half later this was the reality, which is evidence of the dramatic change in the entire global geopolitical picture.

Time magazine had written about this just the day before.

If Putin can get Obama to go along with his proposal as well, it would mark one of the greatest diplomatic triumphs of his 15 years in power.

This means Russia’s victory is now official. The only question is – victory over whom?

What I mean is – I would like to emphasize that this is not a victory over Obama, as many experts are simplistically trying to present it, but over a powerful supranational grouping, which uses the United States as a battering ram in order to plunge the world into a new Middle Ages. And this group’s reaction to the agreement between Putin and Obama quickly followed. Right out of the blue Hillary Clinton launched into a tirade of criticism against Obama. But she was not lambasting him over agreements with Russia on Syria and Ukraine, as one might have expected, but over a purely domestic issue – ObamaCare.

Leaving aside for the moment the content of his speech, which has already been picked over for quotes, let us try to answer the main question – why did Putin have to address the “international community” at all? Couldn’t he have just published an article in any international media outlet? The answer is very simple – for the same reason he had to help a flock of young Siberian cranes get to where they needed to go. The content of Putin’s New York speech takes a distant second to the psychological component of his message to the leaders of the world community and the global decision-makers in the West. Time will reveal the significance of that. But, looking at how the global picture evolved between Sept. 29 and 30, we can see that Putin really got through to the intended audience for his statements. And he was more than just heard – specific agreements have now been reached with Moscow regarding the first steps for getting out of the quagmire into which the backstage elites have led the world.