The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

sepheronx wrote:
And the dutch report didn't say Russia did it either.  So are you adding your own content now?  You sound like the Ukrainians....

No, it did not, as it did not have the mandate to do that.

However, we now know that the Russian MoDs lies about Carlos the non-existing traffic controller was nonsense, we do know that the "witness" of the returning Su-25 pilot Russia was parading around was nonsense, we know that the in Russian media ridiculed Higgins was correct about the launching site while the Buk manufacturer was dead wrong, and we know that the launch site was well within the separatist area.

Unless we pretend that maps from late August shows the situation in the middle of July, that is.

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
And the dutch report didn't say Russia did it either.  So are you adding your own content now?  You sound like the Ukrainians....

No, it did not, as it did not have the mandate to do that.

However, we now know that the Russian MoDs lies about Carlos the non-existing traffic controller was nonsense, we do know that the "witness" of the returning Su-25 pilot Russia was parading around was nonsense, we know that the in Russian media ridiculed Higgins was correct about the launching site while the Buk manufacturer was dead wrong, and we know that the lainch site was well within the separatist area.

Unless we pretend that maps from late August shows the situayion in the middle of July, that is.

And how do we know this?  MoD has radar data, simple as that (it could have easily been that they are relating to the idea that Ukraine was tailing the Mh-17 to protect their Su-25, which is very much possible).  They didn't state the Su-25 shot it down.  As well, they are correct that no air data controller info was released, and it was also questioned by others.  No one stated about Carlos.  And how was Almaz Antey wrong?  MoD also asked why the airspace was open and why the plane was diverted.  A lot have asked the same question.  What was Ukraine's answer? Nothing.

Almaz Antey provided data as to which type of missile would have been used. Since they are the manufacturer, they would know far better than anyone what kind of it. And their reports are open for all as well.

If you can actually provide the appropriate data rather than claims, that would be nice.  As well, Russian MoD provided their evidence outright.  But here is the kicker, no one else actually provided any evidence.  But statements.

sepheronx wrote:

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
And the dutch report didn't say Russia did it either.  So are you adding your own content now?  You sound like the Ukrainians....

No, it did not, as it did not have the mandate to do that.

However, we now know that the Russian MoDs lies about Carlos the non-existing traffic controller was nonsense, we do know that the "witness" of the returning Su-25 pilot Russia was parading around was nonsense, we know that the in Russian media ridiculed Higgins was correct about the launching site while the Buk manufacturer was dead wrong, and we know that the lainch site was well within the separatist area.

Unless we pretend that maps from late August shows the situayion in the middle of July, that is.

And how do we know this?  MoD has radar data, simple as that.  They didn't state the Su-25 shot it down.  As well, they are correct that no air data controller info was released, and it was also questioned by others.  No one stated about Carlos.  And how was Almaz Antey wrong?

If you can actually provide the appropriate data rather than claims, that would be nice.  As well, Russian MoD provided their evidence outright.  But here is the kicker, no one else actually provided any evidence.  But statements.

What are you talking about? They have calculated the launch site from the damage pattern on the plane and the passengers. AA pretended that the launch site was somewhere else during its June press conference:



White is their launch site, yellow is Higgins one.

And who would know better?  The maker of the missiles or someone who didn't even have the access to the system in the first place?

I can see where you got the idea of the air controller: https://www.rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

But they specifically mentioned on the concept of Social media.  But various other points do stand.  Then there is this of course:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j

Like I said, Almaz Antey's findings are apparently open and was submitted.

So questions remain:

1) Air Traffic controller tapes. Where are they?
2) Why did they allow civil planes fly over a warzone were antonov jet(s) were blown out the sky before hand
3) Did Ukraine give full access to their air defense arsenal for the investigation?

Three of which are not answered either. Such questions need to actually be also investigated before anyone can come to a real conclusion. Almaz Antey, being the developer of said systems, would also have full knowledge of what its systems capable of. So their investigation needs to also be accounted for.

sepheronx wrote:And who would know better?  The maker of the missiles or someone who didn't even have the access to the system in the first place?

I can see where you got the idea of the air controller: https://www.rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

But they specifically mentioned on the concept of Social media.  But various other points do stand.  Then there is this of course:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j

Like I said, Almaz Antey's findings are apparently open and was submitted.

So questions remain:

1) Air Traffic controller tapes.  Where are they?
2) Why did they allow civil planes fly over a warzone were antonov jet(s) were blown out the sky before hand
3) Did Ukraine give full access to their air defense arsenal for the investigation?

Three of which are not answered either.  Such questions need to actually be also investigated before anyone can come to a real conclusion.  Almaz Antey, being the developer of said systems, would also have full knowledge of what its systems capable of.  So their investigation needs to also be accounted for.

1. In the report.
2. Mistake of Ukraine, they should be punished for that one.
3. Did Russia give full access to the 53rd?

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:And who would know better?  The maker of the missiles or someone who didn't even have the access to the system in the first place?

I can see where you got the idea of the air controller: https://www.rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

But they specifically mentioned on the concept of Social media.  But various other points do stand.  Then there is this of course:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j

Like I said, Almaz Antey's findings are apparently open and was submitted.

So questions remain:

1) Air Traffic controller tapes.  Where are they?
2) Why did they allow civil planes fly over a warzone were antonov jet(s) were blown out the sky before hand
3) Did Ukraine give full access to their air defense arsenal for the investigation?

Three of which are not answered either.  Such questions need to actually be also investigated before anyone can come to a real conclusion.  Almaz Antey, being the developer of said systems, would also have full knowledge of what its systems capable of.  So their investigation needs to also be accounted for.

1. In the report.
2. Mistake of Ukraine, they should be punished for that one.
3. Did Russia give full access to the 53rd?

1. Quote the report please.  Page # and link if so.

2. Yes, they are responsible.

3. And what does it matter if Russia gave it or not?  Was it ever asked?  The question remains though, what about Ukraine's stash?  Buks were in service for decades in Ukraine.  The plane blew up in Ukraine.  Pretty clear to me.  Also, Miltorov stated that numbering systems for buks are not indications to what units they belong in as he himself worked in the military.

As well:

http://tass.ru/en/world/828410

Seems that the investigation is far from impartial.  Almaz Antey, having both the equipment and the technical knowhow, did tests and submitted it.  They did nothing with it.  I think it is far from impartial.

Edit: BTW, why is it that satphotos of Russian airplanes in Syria were very clear and gave good indication as to Russia's movement in Syria, yet the only sat photo was of a really horrible grainy photo of tractors on the field? These are clearly what is supposed to be evidence of Russia's involvements. So where is it though?

sepheronx wrote:
As well:

http://tass.ru/en/world/828410

Seems that the investigation is far from impartial.  Almaz Antey, having both the equipment and the technical knowhow, did tests and submitted it.  They did nothing with it.  I think it is far from impartial.

One thing at a time.

Let us pretend Russia was responsible. You do not have to think so, we are just pretending, okay?

Let us also pretend that Russia was doing its bit to obscure the truth.

Should they still use that information to be "impartial", you think?

sepheronx wrote:

Edit: BTW, why is it that satphotos of Russian airplanes in Syria were very clear and gave good indication as to Russia's movement in Syria, yet the only sat photo was of a really horrible grainy photo of tractors on the field?  These are clearly what is supposed to be evidence of Russia's involvements.  So where is it though?

What does this have to do with anything?

The launch site was calculated even by AA for the report, and they put it in the same area as the Dutch, the Ukrainians and Higgins. That area was controlled by separatists at that time, and that is the bottom line.

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
As well:

http://tass.ru/en/world/828410

Seems that the investigation is far from impartial.  Almaz Antey, having both the equipment and the technical knowhow, did tests and submitted it.  They did nothing with it.  I think it is far from impartial.

One thing at a time.

Let us pretend Russia was responsible. You do not have to think so, we are just pretending, okay?

Let us also pretend that Russia was doing its bit to obscure the truth.

Should they still use that information to be "impartial", you think?

Well, seeing as how it wouldn't matter if they were responsible for it or not, but it is on the investigators to look at all sides to it, they have to be impartial.  Regardless.  Not take orders or turn a blind eye.  Add to that, when the makers of the system provides their data with actual examples from said tests, then it gives us the indication that it should also be used as it is a great way to compare evidences of the shrapnel and the like.  One should look at it. Or ask for further tests to be done live with on the sight experts from the investigative countries.

But since none of that happened and they just brushed it off, gives the indication that they couldn't really care.

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Edit: BTW, why is it that satphotos of Russian airplanes in Syria were very clear and gave good indication as to Russia's movement in Syria, yet the only sat photo was of a really horrible grainy photo of tractors on the field?  These are clearly what is supposed to be evidence of Russia's involvements.  So where is it though?

What does this have to do with anything?

The launch site was calculated even by AA for the report, and they put it in the same area as the Dutch, the Ukrainians and Higgins. That area was controlled by separatists at that time, and that is the bottom line.

Has to do with the fact that is where their so called claims came from that it is Russian. So called un-verified sat photos. So I bring into question the claim that the Buk even came from Russia which you seem to insinuate in your earlier comments. Since you are quick to judge and all beyond what even the investigation claims.

Was it controlled by separatists? Besides a claimed map, do we have any other form of evidence?

sepheronx wrote:

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:And who would know better?  The maker of the missiles or someone who didn't even have the access to the system in the first place?

I can see where you got the idea of the air controller: https://www.rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

But they specifically mentioned on the concept of Social media.  But various other points do stand.  Then there is this of course:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j

Like I said, Almaz Antey's findings are apparently open and was submitted.

So questions remain:

1) Air Traffic controller tapes.  Where are they?
2) Why did they allow civil planes fly over a warzone were antonov jet(s) were blown out the sky before hand
3) Did Ukraine give full access to their air defense arsenal for the investigation?

Three of which are not answered either.  Such questions need to actually be also investigated before anyone can come to a real conclusion.  Almaz Antey, being the developer of said systems, would also have full knowledge of what its systems capable of.  So their investigation needs to also be accounted for.

1. In the report.
2. Mistake of Ukraine, they should be punished for that one.
3. Did Russia give full access to the 53rd?

1. Quote the report please.  Page # and link if so.

2. Yes, they are responsible.

3. And what does it matter if Russia gave it or not?  Was it ever asked?  The question remains though, what about Ukraine's stash?  Buks were in service for decades in Ukraine.  The plane blew up in Ukraine.  Pretty clear to me.  Also, Miltorov stated that numbering systems for buks are not indications to what units they belong in as he himself worked in the military.

As well:

http://tass.ru/en/world/828410

Seems that the investigation is far from impartial.  Almaz Antey, having both the equipment and the technical knowhow, did tests and submitted it.  They did nothing with it.  I think it is far from impartial.

Edit: BTW, why is it that satphotos of Russian airplanes in Syria were very clear and gave good indication as to Russia's movement in Syria, yet the only sat photo was of a really horrible grainy photo of tractors on the field?  These are clearly what is supposed to be evidence of Russia's involvements.  So where is it though?

Well Kub M1 unit where i served had numbering somewhat like 22467, 22876, 22406 then suddenly one resupply vehicle is 576... it did not really follow any logic unless inside that unit, it was maybe part of upper infrastructure where certain types of vehicles among brigade have same number of digits. This however would lead to fact that big systems like USSR/Russia/Ukraine would end up having maybe 15 launchers with 312 number on it. I highly doubt some unit on Kuril Islands cares if there is another 415 launcher in Krasnodar, they are in the books anyways entered by their chasis number. Just to make it clear ALL transloaders, TELs, P40 radars, 1S91 engagement radars and other vehicles that follow the unit had same messy numbering, mostly 5 digit except i belive transloaders which had 3 digit, but do not take my word for granted here i wasnt in logistics.

And as one Captain said "messier designation and nomenclature on your vehicles is, the better, enemy will have no clue what, where and how many you have".

KoTeMoRe wrote:Not so easy. The Area limited by Kiev was expanded both By Almaz Antey and The Board. Path of the missile contradicts the initial assumption it came from Left Left. They show the missile crossed the axis of flight. That looks werid but makes Snezhnoe almost impossible as well. Remember who pushed for Snezhnoe to be the firing point?

I haven't been following this thread...has this been posted

Wow...the ukies with their high tech have pin pointed it to a few meters  

Dforce wrote:Higgins

Eliot Higgins has been found to be a liar and a fraud, clearly working on an agenda. The very founder of FotoForensics.com has distanced himself from him, stating that Higgins demonstrates well how NOT to do ELA.  Image forensics experts such as Jens Kriese have also criticised Higgins "work" as unprofessional and liable to bias. He also beleives he's still right about Syria and the Ghouta sarin attacks even though he's wrong. Quoting Higgins as a source devalues you argument completely, I advise avoiding it. Nothing like satire to conclude him succinctly.  

The Dutch "multiNATO, er, I mean multinational" Team can't be trusted... there's an element of truth to every lie, but it's still a lie all the same. Might as well just have Russia conducting the investigation all by itself for all it's worth. Yeah, the shoe on the other foot doesn't feel so comfortable now does it?

The ATC data has not been released in full, all we have is a slight transcript just around the event. Hell, they took so long to come up with even just that it would be a wonder if they hadn't been doctored. Again, feel free to provide a link to the full length flight recording like Sepheronx asked. While you're at it could you release those US satellite photos? Also, please explain why Ukraine gets to be in a not-so-secret non-disclosure pact with its bros? Why Malaysia wasn't even included on the official investigation team to begin with? Why the Dutch got their 122 tons of gold back from the US right around the time this was all happening?

Dforce wrote:2. Mistake of Ukraine, they should be punished for that one.

Whoa whoa whoa, did you just agree that that was Kiev's fault? Well I'll be damned, that's exactly what I've been saying since the aircraft was shot down! It doesn't matter who carried out the final act now does it really? Kiev was complicit in the crime! But have they been held accountable or punished? No, and they won't, for the same reason that this whole investigation is a farce. The narrative is it's Russia's fault, and that is the end of it.

Dforce wrote:PS.  I expect that this member gets  a harsh warning for calling me an idiot. The Forum pretends to treat every member the same, right?

Wait, you just called him a truther? I'm assuming you weren't meaning that as a positive term, therefore it was derogatory? I'd call that almost hypocritical. Fascinating. Also, you must of missed the full on flamewar that went down in one of the Syria threads just recently. If you can't handle being called an idiot then I'm sorry to say, you should probably get off of the internet. But if you really want special privilege because you feel hurt, then I'm sure he'll apologise accordingly.

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Dforce wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
And the dutch report didn't say Russia did it either.  So are you adding your own content now?  You sound like the Ukrainians....

No, it did not, as it did not have the mandate to do that.

However, we now know that the Russian MoDs lies about Carlos the non-existing traffic controller was nonsense, we do know that the "witness" of the returning Su-25 pilot Russia was parading around was nonsense, we know that the in Russian media ridiculed Higgins was correct about the launching site while the Buk manufacturer was dead wrong, and we know that the lainch site was well within the separatist area.

Unless we pretend that maps from late August shows the situayion in the middle of July, that is.

And how do we know this?  MoD has radar data, simple as that.  They didn't state the Su-25 shot it down.  As well, they are correct that no air data controller info was released, and it was also questioned by others.  No one stated about Carlos.  And how was Almaz Antey wrong?

If you can actually provide the appropriate data rather than claims, that would be nice.  As well, Russian MoD provided their evidence outright.  But here is the kicker, no one else actually provided any evidence.  But statements.

What are you talking about? They have calculated the launch site from the damage pattern on the plane and the passengers. AA pretended that the launch site was somewhere else during its June press conference:



White is their launch site, yellow is Higgins one.

Higgins ? No offense but anyone using Higgins as reference/proof has to be troll or very well paid to compensate for making fool of himself.

Now since we are talking about "Situation in Ukraine" i have to share this, coz this is sad at the best.


Text does not matter much photo says everything.

^^^

Hmmm....Hospitals using home made wheelchairs....the "perks" of the righteous revolution I guess


This is interesting...

CSTO Will Take Part Along With OSCE Monitoring Mission
http://novorossia.today/csto-will-take-part-along-with-osce-monitoring-mission/

Dforce wrote:Are you lot swallowing EVERYTHING here?

And what words does Obama whisper to you when you swallow..

No dforce, rodinazombie does not 'get it' according to your version of what happened. You know that the rebels are more likely to have done it than the russians, yet you ignore that and go straight to the 'we know the russians did it' narrative just to feed your hatred of russia.

With regards to maps, i think its quite clear that despite the maps giving us a general idea of the frontlines. Thats all they were. They were p4oven to be incorrect on many occasions by both sides. So in order to prove that the rebels were in possession of the territory, they are going to have to come up with something more solid than an unreliable map written by someone on the internet.

This is a map captured from commander of 1st Battalion of 95th Seperate Airmobile Brigade as they retreated. It shows ukrops defensive positions around a farm at Zaroshchenske to the south of Shakhtersk, and the position of a Buk. Another part of the map, not published, shows the position of a Buk at the village of Gruzko-Zoryanske, which is 3km West of Illovaisk. Remember that the soldier of the Buk battery had made status reports on his VK page showing they had reached Illovaisk by 16 July. Of course enemies will say this map is forged, but they need to prove it. However, the links and screenshots to the VK page were posted to MP very soon after MH17 came down and I do not recall anybody at the time calling them fake. A pity that forum is closed, because tho the ukrops VK page was quickly closed, the screenshots would still be on the forum.

Tho the map from ukrops I posted yesterday was from a later date, I do not claim infallibility, it really does not matter as I already said that kot-ivanov's maps were inacurate on his own admission, and that ukrops maps were fantasy. The reality on the ground is that on 17 July ukrops were in the suburbs of Shakhtersk and pressing all along the line, so they were in the area marked by the Dutch as potential launch site area. Edit: While Shakhtersk is clearly not in the area marked by the Dutch, that is, IMO, irrelevant as ukrops were by Shakhtersk and that is were the finger points to a launch site. Also ukrops were in the area marked by the Dutch, mostly the western and southern area, but there was no fixed front, only villages or hills or road junctions held by one side or the other and all in confusion.
http://lifenews.ru/news/164439

Cyberspec wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:Not so easy. The Area limited by Kiev was expanded both By Almaz Antey and The Board. Path of the missile contradicts the initial assumption it came from Left Left. They show the missile crossed the axis of flight. That looks werid but makes Snezhnoe almost impossible as well. Remember who pushed for Snezhnoe to be the firing point?

I haven't been following this thread...has this been posted

Wow...the ukies with their high tech have pin pointed it to a few meters  

Allow me to make use of your picture. Here we can see that there is a discrepancy  between the path designed by the NLR and physical evidence. If the path starts anywhere within Ukrainian point, then the missile went head on and didn't cross the plane's axis of flight. It's simply impossible. Even Almaz Antey's calculations on NLR data are barely right.

Remember the Plane was shot over Torez.

Further.
This article on "antifacist" tells about how German media are skeptical about the MH17 report and are very critical of Kiev http://antifashist.com/item/nemeckaya-pressa-sledovateli-schitayut-ukrainu-prichastnoj-k-katastrofe-boinga.html#ixzz3oY3UXJ13 The article quotes ARD "taggeschau" which is German equivalent of Rossiya 24, BBC, CNN etc, and ARD are very critical of Ukraine. http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/mh-siebzehn-bericht-105.html
I also link to the comment page for the "taggeschau" article http://meta.tagesschau.de/id/104117/absturz-von-mh17-ermittler-kritisieren-ukraine-scharf Nearly all the comments are against Kiev with such as "What reality does Kiev live in?", "It was Soviet made missile, not Russian", "What is being suggested here? that the rebels shot down the plane? with what burden of proof? There is still no evidence for this", and a comment saying essentially that what Kiev says has no more credibility than anything Walter Ulbrich said, clearly from an "Alte Ossi". It becomes clearly, and not only about MH17, that in Europe any support for Kiev evaporates and seemingly only the anglophone countries, with no legitimate interests in Ukraine and Russia, are left jumping and screaming.

Khepesh wrote:
Tho the map from ukrops I posted yesterday was from a later date, I do not claim infallibility, it really does not matter as I already said that kot-ivanov's maps were inacurate on his own admission, and that ukrops maps were fantasy. The reality on the ground is that on 17 July ukrops were in the suburbs of Shakhtersk and pressing all along the line, so they were in the area marked by the Dutch as potential launch site area. Edit: While Shakhtersk is clearly not in the area marked by the Dutch, that is, IMO, irrelevant as ukrops were by Shakhtersk and that is were the finger points to a launch site. Also ukrops were in the area marked by the Dutch, mostly the western and southern area, but there was no fixed front, only villages or hills or road junctions held by one side or the other and all in confusion.
http://lifenews.ru/news/164439

We let us see what the rebels were reporting that day:

Breaking news: Marinovka taken & Southern Cauldron sealed!
15:50 - July 16, 2014 - Briefing From the Militia
translated by Gleb Bazov

Marinovka has been taken by the Militia. The punitive forces have been totally encircled. The southern cauldron has been firmly sealed. The Ukrainian forces have only one chance to survive - to surrender to the Militia or to be interned on the territory of Russia.

On other areas of the southern front, the Militia also continues an active offensive. Artillery attacks on the Junta columns are being conducted. The Militia periodically uses Grad systems.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/breaking-news-marinovka-taken-southern.html

You find the same on Slavyanskyski:

15:50 – July 16, 2014 – Briefing from the Militia

Marinovka has been taken by the Militia. The punitive forces have been totally encircled. The southern cauldron has been firmly sealed. The Ukrainian forces have only one chance to survive – to surrender to the Militia or to be interned on the territory of Russia. On other areas of the southern front, the Militia also continues an active offensive. Artillery attacks on the Junta columns are being conducted. The Militia periodically uses Grad systems.

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/17/briefings-july-16-2014/

So, both the sepoys and the ukrops agree on what they were controlling at the time, but still you do not want to admit facts....

Dforce wrote:

We let us see what the rebels were reporting that day:

Breaking news: Marinovka taken & Southern Cauldron sealed!
15:50 - July 16, 2014 - Briefing From the Militia
translated by Gleb Bazov

Marinovka has been taken by the Militia. The punitive forces have been totally encircled. The southern cauldron has been firmly sealed. The Ukrainian forces have only one chance to survive - to surrender to the Militia or to be interned on the territory of Russia.

On other areas of the southern front, the Militia also continues an active offensive. Artillery attacks on the Junta columns are being conducted. The Militia periodically uses Grad systems.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/breaking-news-marinovka-taken-southern.html

You find the same on Slavyanskyski:

15:50 – July 16, 2014 – Briefing from the Militia

Marinovka has been taken by the Militia. The punitive forces have been totally encircled. The southern cauldron has been firmly sealed. The Ukrainian forces have only one chance to survive – to surrender to the Militia or to be interned on the territory of Russia. On other areas of the southern front, the Militia also continues an active offensive. Artillery attacks on the Junta columns are being conducted. The Militia periodically uses Grad systems.

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/17/briefings-july-16-2014/

So, both the sepoys and the ukrops agree on what they were controlling at the time, but still you do not want to admit facts....

The issue is about a Buk being at Zaroshchenske, not Marinovka which is more than 30km to the west. The reports about Militia attacking are about actions against the southern boiler which streched from Saur-Mogila to Sverdlovsk, not on the front between Donetsk and Snezhnoe which was being pressed by ukrops and continued to be pressed with increasing severity until the counter offensive. The reports on the sites you quote are about the attacks on the southern boiler, the maps show the area from Snezhnoe and off to the east, not the west and to Shakhtersk. They only mention of Shakhtersk I found, without reading every word, is of an attempted ukrops attack with SU-25 on Militia column heading between Shakhtersk and Torez. So, what have these reports about Marinovka got to do with report of Buk at Zaroshchenske?

Go easy on Dforce guys, he had a rough year and by the looks of it next one will be no picnic either...

Since Russia is walking off sanctions, EU states are at each other's throats, Ukraine spinning down the sh*tter, refugees keep flooding in Europe, Saudis getting screwed militarily and financially, ISIS getting raped by VKS, etc,etc... basically NAF could (if they wanted to) shoot down five airliners on live TV and no one could do jack sh*t about it since Ukraine is old news...

And now Big D will declare my previous sentence as a proof that NAF shot down MH17....



Also some real news:

"EU Taxpayers and World Bank Stuck With Ukraine's Gas Bill"

http://russia-insider.com/en/business/eu-taxpayers-and-world-bank-stuck-ukraines-gas-bill/ri10507

Khepesh wrote:

Dforce wrote:Are you lot swallowing EVERYTHING here?

And what words does Obama whisper to you when you swallow..

Nasty

Where is the love?

"New Oxford Atlas Recognizes That Crimea is Part of Russia"

http://sputniknews.com/world/20151014/1028533625/oxford-university-press-atlas-crimea.html#ixzz3oZNDIhQh



"Big country that is often in the news"... priceless!