China's development as a superpower

The problem is that the EU is not a power.... it remains a vassal state subservient to the US.

Until they can start making their own decisions there is not much point in talking to them...

GarryB wrote:The problem is that the EU is not a power.... it remains a vassal state subservient to the US.

Until they can start making their own decisions there is not much point in talking to them...

Oh Gary, again stuck in the past.

Maybe you should follow and see how politics develop. Its a core goal of France to crush USA out of Europe.

Germany supports this.

Are you telling me USA ordered Germany and France to vote against USA imposing UNSC sanctions on Iran?

Are you telling me USA ordered France and Germany to walk out the WHO reform process started by USA. With french and german diplomats saying that USA has no authority to demand anything regarding the WHO?

US influence in Europe is limited to small eastern european shitholes like Poland and the Baltics.

According to newest EU rules, US companies are even excluded from new defense projects.

P.s: When will New Zealand stop its Corona Paranoia? Crazy how much facism you willingly allow because a cough and cold.

Aristide wrote:

GarryB wrote:The problem is that the EU is not a power.... it remains a vassal state subservient to the US.

Until they can start making their own decisions there is not much point in talking to them...

Oh Gary, again stuck in the past.

Maybe you should follow and see how politics develop. Its a core goal of France to crush USA out of Europe.

Germany supports this.

Are you telling me USA ordered Germany and France to vote against USA imposing UNSC sanctions on Iran?

Are you telling me USA ordered France and Germany to walk out the WHO reform process started by USA. With french and german diplomats saying that USA has no authority to demand anything regarding the WHO?

US influence in Europe is limited to small eastern european shitholes like Poland and the Baltics.

According to newest EU rules, US companies are even excluded from new defense projects.

P.s: When will New Zealand stop its Corona Paranoia? Crazy how much facism you willingly allow because a cough and cold.

If the NATzO serfs of Uncle Swine-shit were really independent, then they would not be sucking his schlong as to natural gas imports.
You have no leg to stand on with your absurd claims that NATzO vassals are free to do as they please. The only time that was true
for France was when de Gaulle was in office. Micron, Hollande, Sarkozy are/were all pathetic sock puppets. Sarkozy engaged in
the gang rape of Libya, Hollande cut off France's own testicles in the Mistral case because yanquis snapped their fingers and the
trained poodle had to respond. France also dished out over 8 billion dollars in imperial bank fines to the yanquis for daring to not conform
to the yanqui script exactly.

The EU is cannon fodder for the anglos. Like during the 1930s, the anglos think that they will use you idiots to roll over Russia
to find the final solution to the Russian "problem". And you idiots will oblige with a smile. Because Navalny and "novichoke".

kvs wrote:

Aristide wrote:

GarryB wrote:The problem is that the EU is not a power.... it remains a vassal state subservient to the US.

Until they can start making their own decisions there is not much point in talking to them...

Oh Gary, again stuck in the past.

Maybe you should follow and see how politics develop. Its a core goal of France to crush USA out of Europe.

Germany supports this.

Are you telling me USA ordered Germany and France to vote against USA imposing UNSC sanctions on Iran?

Are you telling me USA ordered France and Germany to walk out the WHO reform process started by USA. With french and german diplomats saying that USA has no authority to demand anything regarding the WHO?

US influence in Europe is limited to small eastern european shitholes like Poland and the Baltics.

According to newest EU rules, US companies are even excluded from new defense projects.

P.s: When will New Zealand stop its Corona Paranoia? Crazy how much facism you willingly allow because a cough and cold.

If the NATzO serfs of Uncle Swine-shit were really independent, then they would not be sucking his schlong as to natural gas imports.    
You have no leg to stand on with your absurd claims that NATzO vassals are free to do as they please.   The only time that was true
for France was when de Gaulle was in office.    Micron, Hollande, Sarkozy are/were all pathetic sock puppets.   Sarkozy engaged in
the gang rape of Libya, Hollande cut off France's own testicles in the Mistral case because yanquis snapped their fingers and the
trained poodle had to respond.    France also dished out over 8 billion dollars in imperial bank fines to the yanquis for daring to not conform
to the yanqui script exactly.

The EU is cannon fodder for the anglos.   Like during the 1930s, the anglos think that they will use you idiots to roll over Russia
to find the final solution to the Russian "problem".     And you idiots will oblige with a smile.   Because Navalny and "novichoke".


 

Yeah sure and because of this we press US influence out of Europe at evry day.

USA is a rival, Russia is a minor rival since it has no economic power and China is a rival.

We place China and USA as threat and focus on them. With Russia we will see, cooperation in economy and science is possible.

As Macron says, american influence is poison. So is chinese influence.

The Mistral thing i see different. That deal should never have happened from the start. Neither France nor Russia profited from this.

P.s. I dont care about Nawalny, Russia can kill who it wants on its territory as long its no french citizens, thats none of our business.

But maybe use the german stuff sarin or tabun next time. At least that stuff works. The russian chemical weapons seem to be not very effective.

France has killed alot of our enemies but we do it more smart than that.

A car accident here, a plane crash there.


What matters now is that we all sit this shit out. France heavily invested in NS II as well and we would not like to see that investment go down.

I would add that with some interruptions, France served the US interests ever since she helped the 13 colonies fight the British. If France was truly independent, she would've joined Italy in the BRI deal with China.

Oh Gary, again stuck in the past.

Maybe you should follow and see how politics develop. Its a core goal of France to crush USA out of Europe.

Hahahahaha... you say I am stuck in the past and then say in the future France wants to stop being told what to do by the US and have the same for the rest of Europe.... doesn't that mean I am stuck in the present, and you are dreaming of a different future from today?

I can fully understand that, but that just makes me right and you a wishful thinker... which is fine.

Germany supports this.

Germany agrees with France not to be told what to do by the US... is that because that is what they actually want or is it because France told them so and they just do as they are told like good little sheeple like the rest of Europe.

Are you telling me USA ordered Germany and France to vote against USA imposing UNSC sanctions on Iran?

Hahahahaha.... nice creative accounting there... they didn't vote against the US... the Abstained and let Russia and China vote against the US and the Dominican Republic...

They didn't have the balls to actually vote against them even though they wanted the vote to fail... good little lapdogs... master is angry but you still might get a cookie and a walk.

Are you telling me USA ordered France and Germany to walk out the WHO reform process started by USA. With french and german diplomats saying that USA has no authority to demand anything regarding the WHO?

The US has no authority demanding reforms of WHO or the world court or WADA, but europe never actively acts against them when they do.

US influence in Europe is limited to small eastern european shitholes like Poland and the Baltics.

They have more influence there because their governments are based on fear of the non existent threat from Russia, but all of Europe is afraid of big scary Mr Putin... which is honestly very funny, because US demands over weakening workers rights and food standards means Mr Trump or Mr Biden are by far the much greater threats to everyone.

According to newest EU rules, US companies are even excluded from new defense projects.

Hahaha... how long will that last... and when they get sued or find there are US companies they need to cooperate breaking those rules will be ignored. The EU uses Microsoft products... there is no western alternative.... there is no competition for the contracts.... they just get them every term.

P.s: When will New Zealand stop its Corona Paranoia? Crazy how much facism you willingly allow because a cough and cold.

We have had 23 deaths... how is France going?

Yeah sure and because of this we press US influence out of Europe at evry day.

Who is telling you that? There is a lot of anti Trump feeling because he is so open and honest in the way he abuses his subjects in Europe, but if Biden wins you will be asking the master which country to invade next...

With Russia we will see, cooperation in economy and science is possible.

Cooperation like delivering products paid for....???

As Macron says, american influence is poison. So is chinese influence.

Standard western propaganda... what you say is true, but reversed... french and US influence is poison to China and to Russia for that matter, but fortunately your leaders are making sure they only get small doses and are building up their immunity...

The Mistral thing i see different. That deal should never have happened from the start. Neither France nor Russia profited from this.

Russia is selling equipment and helicopters to Egypt.... along with other land based systems, they got a good look at a modern helicopter carrier and were given enough time to decide what they liked and what they would prefer changed... at 30K ton I guess they are changing a bit.... including making it more ice resistant and better suited to their standards... and they pretty much got their money back... what was not to like.

The only problem for them was that they wanted them faster, but this delay means work for their workers... almost certainly four ships, but possibly more if they can adapt them to other roles like hospital ship... and as I said the delay will mean they can make the modifications they want and have more time to develop the support infrastructure and support ships needed to operate it properly...

But maybe use the german stuff sarin or tabun next time. At least that stuff works. The russian chemical weapons seem to be not very effective.

If they wanted him dead good old fashioned lead poisoning, or car accident, or crashed plane would be much easier and cheaper to organise with nothing tying anything to anyone... Navalny didn't get novachok in his system till he was handed over to the German military... they probably used their own supply which is probably why he isn't dead.

France has killed alot of our enemies but we do it more smart than that.

A car accident here, a plane crash there.

Or you could talk to them and they will commit suicide...

What matters now is that we all sit this shit out. France heavily invested in NS II as well and we would not like to see that investment go down.

Screw NSII, I am sure there is an outclause like with Mistral. Just redirect the pipe to Kaliningrad...

It takes a chart to put it into perspective.


It's a race to the bottom for US trade

If there ever was a time when you could see a trend solidly in motion, now is it.

That the Western, previously civilized world is in decline has been known to anyone with an ounce of curiosity and even just a modicum of analysis of data points.

Before Xi’s ascension to power one could have argued that this trend was worrying, but not terrifying.

What makes it terrifying is that Xi managed to abolish the two-term limit for his presidency with an overwhelming majority (2,959 to 2 and 3 abstaining votes — no prizes for guessing where those 5 guys are now).

He then proceeded to have his name enshrined in the constitution. No shit.

You may recall Xi’s “anti-corruption” purge from a few years back.

Well, this was Xi’s own internal secret police, designed to kill (literally) any opposition from within the CCP.

Today’s China, or should I say CCP, is not the same CCP of Deng Xiaoping. Today’s CCP is an ideological global weapon of control, and it is spreading like cancer.

P.s: When will New Zealand stop its Corona Paranoia? Crazy how much facism you willingly allow because a cough and cold.

We lost 26 people to the Corona Virus so far and you talk about Facism.... I have not worn a mask in months... I think for about a week three months ago we had to wear them. Everything is open except international travel, which means we can go on holidays around our own country on the cheap... we have no restrictions at all, but you call us fascist...

What is the situation in France at the moment? No deaths? No Restrictions? No problems with Migrants?

What makes it terrifying is that Xi managed to abolish the two-term limit for his presidency with an overwhelming majority (2,959 to 2 and 3 abstaining votes — no prizes for guessing where those 5 guys are now).

The suggestion that five men were killed is amusing... the Clintons probably killed 1,000 times more than that when Bill was in power and leading up to and after Hilary failed to get into office... it seems if America does it it is OK...

kvs wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:China doesn't need nor wants to be a superpower. Being a major regional power with Global reach is enough: 
https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/the-eurasian-century-has-already-begun/?mc_cid=4fcea32b9e&mc_eid=5455568640

https://www.juancole.com/2020/08/bruited-investment-beijing.html

But since China is competition to Uncle Swine-shit, it will be targeted as an "existential threat" anyway.   Russia is getting the same treatment.
Yanquis will not even tolerate large trade outside of their control.  

China has tried to keep a low profile, in keeping with the Deng directive of "not shining too bright", things have been going so well for them that they want to extend that state of affairs as long as they can, growing off the globalist system in a steep trajectory that will have them surpass the US in nominal GDP sometime this decade.

In fact China already is ahead of the US, not just in global trade, domestic market and industrial might, but also in real GDP, since their currency is being kept artificially low. The real value of the Yuan is around 3-4 per US$, nearly twice as valuable as its current exchange rate. So china's real GDP today stands around twice its current $16 trillion value, well ahead of the US' $21 trillion GDP.

China will ride its current path for another 5-10 years, then switch gears from an export-based economy with a weak currency to a savings-based economy with a strong currency once its domestic market becomes much larger than the US', and it completely dominates Asian and global markets, at which point it will outsource its lower-end manufacturing to places like Africa, Pakistan or Indonesia and take over the mid/high end, exporting cellphones, trains, planes, cars, chips etc.

Right now China is trying to lay low, buying off a lot of the US political establishment and dangling its domestic savings market as a giant carrot for Wall Street and Blackrock, who ultimately run the US foreign policy. They will be able to keep this up until they get too big to bother with the acquiescence of the western deep state.

China will use its currency and the digital Yuan to unseat the US$ as the global fiat currency, at which point the US will no longer be able to print its way out of its massive debt (currently at $50 trillions, much larger than the stated $28 trillion), and as a result the US will have to scale back its massive global military apparatus and retreat to its North American sphere.

China's central bank has accumulated as much as 30,000 tons of gold, about 15 times as much gold as it has declared, while the US' official 8,000 ton gold reserve hasn't been audited in decades and is likely much smaller. Once China calls out the Fed's bluff and officially lays down its cards, the US$ will suffer a major blow.



The main difference between China and coutries like the US, UK or France is that Xi is running his country with the economic and political interests of his people as the paramount driver, which is the opposite for the parasitic class ruling western countries, which views their people as a hostile element that has to be expoited and controlled.

Therein lies the relative success of China, as well as Russia's, which is in the same boat, though its human resources and recent history make it a lot more fragile than China. But there is no question that the future of both of these countries is very bright, thanks to the leadership of Xi and Putin.

I think that graphic is a bit misleading. It is not showing the total dollar volume of trade, but the marginal domination across different
countries. So the US and its pals are not quite at 25% of global trade but they are sliding. That is a good thing. These clowns
are brazenly trying to run a global colonial racket covered by the "democracy" fig leaf.

Much of the production in China came from western businesses setting up factories and production for their shit, and Chinese "managers" building a few extra factories they run making "similar stuff".

It is not rocket science to make a factory to assemble shoes, and with the enormous profits you make with your first factory you can build several others to send to other markets that can't afford the expensive western originals even though they are made in the same factories.

There is no special secret western design that makes US designed shoes better than Chinese designed shoes... the science is the same... they have professional athletes and doctors who specialise in feet and walking...

They are the super cheap slave labour that produces western stuff for western companies so much of the stuff you buy... whether it is a western brand or a Chinese brand... it will all be made in China these days...

The point is that the western public will be shocked and rebel against that because they want locally made stuff to get local people in work, but there is no real way to create such jobs in the west where the workers can earn a living wage and the product is affordable enough to be competitive on the western markets.

The real irony is that US companies will sell sports shoes and hiking boots for 400-500 dollars but they can't afford to pay western workers a living wage to make them... what is wrong with their product model that they need to pay children a dollar a day to make such expensive footware... what wages are the CEOs and managers getting... and the people making the big money are not the people making the shoes and certainly not the people selling the shoes... where does the money go?

The 1% owners of course... obscenely rich getting slightly richer... it is why the west is so broken.

Maybe China will get it right.

The US itself proves that it could operate an economy without offshore sweatshops until the 1980s and the right-sizing and down-sizing
spasm of the late 1980s and 1990s. China was a tool for the US and western elites to get more filthy lucre. They threw their workers
under the bus and used trickle down from the arrival of insane profit margins (thanks to dirt cheap production costs) to sustain the
middle class for a while. But this middle class is a dead man walking since the trickle down is attenuating. The sweatshops are developing
into places where workers get paid more and more over time.

The globalist project was all about sweatshops and sky high profit margins for western elites. The current US political split over Trump
nationalists and Biden globalists is all about accepting or rejecting the reality of dying globalism. The Demonrat party and the deep state
think that they can run the globalist colonial racket forever. They ignore the clear signs that it is falling apart. The hate for China is
that it is one of the reasons that the colonial racket is no longer sustainable. China is giving the US and its pals existential competition
on the global scene by playing by much fairer rules. The self-anointed guiding lights of humanity simply cannot compete since they are
rotten colonialist trash.

It is interesting though is it not?

It is readily accepted the anti Chinese and anti Russian propaganda in europe and the big powerful areas of the west... without any evidence of course.

They say... we have been bad and done some terrible things but China or Russia will be worse... totally ignoring the fact that China and Russia don't want to be colonial powers like the US and west are.

From a tiny country in the south Pacific it really does not matter much who is in charge because big bully countries are mostly the same, yet it is US companies that under TPP want to be able to sue our government if they lose money here for not meeting out product requirements... the Chinese and Russians don't seem to want to control our laws and health and safety rules.

My attitude is give them a chance and let them either succeed or fail... but honestly they would struggle to be bigger bastards than what we have had in the past...

You have almost nothing left to offer China.....
Where would the Russians be now if China turned its back on them ? They would have to launch nuclear weapons right away..If China turned its back on Russia, other countries would also turn their backs.
You underestimate China and overestimate Russia.
All NATOphiles and Russophiles behave as if the Berlin Wall is still standing and there is no one but the West and Russia...
Those times are over...

The Chinese have discipline, a term that equates to science fiction in Russia and in the West.
I am the biggest "fan" of China on this forum and I don't hide it.

Scorpius wrote:

You're missing out on some opportunities. Let's say you sold some advanced weapons to China or India, and they want to copy them. In order to copy modern high-tech weapons, you must not only know the detailed process of technological production, up to the effort of tightening fasteners (India actually destroyed dozens of its Su-30MKI due to the fact that Indian workers at the assembly plant tightened fasteners on power structures too much, which led to accelerated wear and tear cracking). You must have the entire technological chain - from the production of structural materials to the assembly and testing of large components and final products.
Well, if you want it, Russia has specialists who will help you create these technological chains. Russia will invest the proceeds from these transactions in further research and development of new weapons.

China seems to do fine in copying Russian equipment.  Then they do their own modifications and then proclaim them to be far superior to Russia's and that Russia's is shit.  I aint kidding, J-16 is an example of them trying to peddle that their crap is actually better than Russia's.

India doesn't have that ability just yet.  They instead copy the cheaper, smaller items like assault rifles and what not.  But then, somewhere in the last 15 years, decided it was better to buy overpriced shit from the west and or try to come up with something that is using nothing but Israeli and western parts (Tejas or their tank).  Ends up being shit and barely affordable mind you.  But they will continue this and will not even go for Russian even if Russia offers localized production and training.  As seen, Indian's rather be a bunch of cucks when it comes to weapons procurement.  Then again, it is very noticeable in their society how cucked they are.

Podlodka77 wrote:
You have almost nothing left to offer China.....
Where would the Russians be now if China turned its back on them ? They would have to launch nuclear weapons right away..If China turned its back on Russia, other countries would also turn their backs.
You underestimate China and overestimate Russia.
All NATOphiles and Russophiles behave as if the Berlin Wall is still standing and there is no one but the West and Russia...
Those times are over...

The Chinese have discipline, a term that equates to science fiction in Russia and in the West.
I am the biggest "fan" of China on this forum and I don't hide it.

You aren't very smart, and I have noticed this when you post about Chinese stuff.  Their stuff is shit. This has been evident with tank biatholons where their Type 96 breaks down horribly (losing treads), MBT turret falls off in Peru during showcase and or Iraq and Syria bitching about how the Radar doesn't even work nearly close to advertised.  You over estimate their crap.  They are just good at churning it out en mass like everything else they did.  But that is where they became so powerful, being able to churn shit out en mass and thus becoming the central manufacturing hub of the world.  But honestly, reduce the population of China down to that of the US or Russia, and then poof, out goes a major benefit of their entire country.  Oh, also add their crap drones that UAE was pissed off about how poor quality they are. Russia also faced this with Chinese engines for ships. The same engines China uses right now.... So I wouldn't praise them too much but you do you.

Since you are "smart", tell me which engine the Russians use in the tank biathlon on their T-72B3 tanks ?      
If you are so stupid that you believe that the Russians use the same tanks as the other members, then I don't know what to write to you..
The Russians win that biathlon because they use V-92S2F engines with a power of 1130 PS.
Chinese equipment is "crap" even though they have produced more J-10 aircraft than the Russians of all tactical aircraft since the early 2000s.
Two project 22350 frigates built since 2006 and only 8 operational corvettes operational since 2007.
That's good, isn't it, but Chinese equipment is "crap".

And the fact that you fart about the Chinese also applies to the Russians, for example the first crash of the only flight prototype Il-112, as well as the crash of the first production Su-57.

The Chinese already have more industrial robots per worker than the US. At this rate of growth they will likely surpass Germany and Japan in that metric.


The idea that China only has manpower is becoming increasingly less true as their economy progresses.

Good luck assembling machines with high precision and zero defects using manual assembly.

Where is Russia ?

Podlodka77 wrote:Since you are "smart", tell me which engine the Russians use in the tank biathlon on their T-72B3 tanks ?      
If you are so stupid that you believe that the Russians use the same tanks as the other members, then I don't know what to write to you..
The Russians win that biathlon because they use V-92S2F engines with a power of 1130 PS.
Chinese equipment is "crap" even though they have produced more J-10 aircraft than the Russians of all tactical aircraft since the early 2000s.
Two project 22350 frigates built since 2006 and only 8 operational corvettes operational since 2007.
That's good, isn't it, but Chinese equipment is "crap".

And the fact that you fart about the Chinese also applies to the Russians, for example the first crash of the only flight prototype Il-112, as well as the crash of the first production Su-57.

Russia is fighting a country if 40 million people helped by whole NATO and is winning.

China can't retake an island that is part of itself supported by noone.

They can build as much as they want type 055 destroyers, they are useless.

If their own j-20 is that good they shouldn't be building j-16 which is a copy the su-30.

To ISOS....

OK, just let me know when the war for that "island" starts....  
You have a colonial consciousness of history.
I don't think you are a colonialist, NO, but those are your views, and the present is already trampling on your views.
And while you are writing about the J-20, your France probably produced the last aircraft with the Rafale aircraft.
And that is now prehistoric, it was a long time ago..
At the time when the Rafale took off, the Chinese didn't even have a expressway.. So much for that...

To LYLE..

It's an old culture, my friend, and I don't worry about them.
We should worry more about what will happen to this poor, fucked-up, corroded and decadent Europe.
In a couple of dozen years it will be crowded, but with some other cultures.

Podlodka77 wrote:Since you are "smart", tell me which engine the Russians use in the tank biathlon on their T-72B3 tanks ?      
If you are so stupid that you believe that the Russians use the same tanks as the other members, then I don't know what to write to you..
The Russians win that biathlon because they use V-92S2F engines with a power of 1130 PS.
Chinese equipment is "crap" even though they have produced more J-10 aircraft than the Russians of all tactical aircraft since the early 2000s.
Two project 22350 frigates built since 2006 and only 8 operational corvettes operational since 2007.
That's good, isn't it, but Chinese equipment is "crap".

And the fact that you fart about the Chinese also applies to the Russians, for example the first crash of the only flight prototype Il-112, as well as the crash of the first production Su-57.

I seem to be speaking to someone who can't determine difference between mass production and actual technical characteristics and achievements.

And China seems to have trouble trying to get a serious jet engine going or, the fact India spotted the J-20 from roughly 180km away using Bars M radar.  Or as said, J-20 while in "mass production" seems to be being produced same time as J-20 and other jets.

I will say, Chinas industrial capabilities are top class and no competition. Their research base can be something else though.

If they weren't busy copying, I bet they would be further ahead than anyone else in actual capabilities.

To supplement lack of qualified specialists in Russia, they too are going route of roboticization. It's rather more important for countries like Russia or Japan with limited work force compared to China. Eventually China will face a glut in workforce but lack of work.

To Sepheronx....

Then explain to me who had better technical characteristics, tank T-34 or Pzkw VI Tiger ?
Answer me that question...
I'm not attacking you, you started it first. I told you that Russians also have many misfortunes and I did not want to list them all. Yes, China is better at hiding the breakdowns of its equipment, but it is certainly not as you write.

Now I see that you are "grabbing" on the Indian story for Su-30MKI and J-20 (which is probably heavy shit) while a few hours ago you wrote all the worst about India..
But as far as India is concerned, we agree - I don't trust them.

sepheronx wrote:And China seems to have trouble trying to get a serious jet engine going or, the fact India spotted the J-20 from roughly 180km away using Bars M radar.  Or as said, J-20 while in "mass production" seems to be being produced same time as J-20 and other jets.

All of China's mainline Air Force fighters in production right now, i.e. the J-16, J-20, J-10, use Chinese WS-10 series engines of model B or C. They are also progressively replacing the engines on older Flankers and J-10 aircraft from Russian supplied Al-31 engines to their own WS-10 series as the engine lifetime on those aircraft runs out. This clearly demonstrates they think their own engine is good enough at this point.

As for being able to spot the J-20, the variants in service have Luneburg lenses equipped if they aren't in actual combat. So that is not that surprising.