Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

RTN wrote:please note that here in the US we have corrected the deviation from target by virtue of rapidly and collaboratively deploying ordnance like JDAM.

I do not understand your point RTN.

The degree of deviation from target is not a function of PCAS systems, but exclusively of the ordnance used in the engagement.

RTN wrote:Consequently the CEP of a 500kg dumb munition, delivered from an altitude of 5000m is now >2m.

Sorry RTN, but where this idea come from ?

PCAS has nothing to do with the increase of the precision of "dumb" munitions, but merely with significantly shortening the time from target identification to its engagement by part CAS support aircraft.

In the tests of PCAS where always used PGM delivered from short range (very often with laser homing ones).
This is a test of PCAS with the engagement completed, from 8,5 km from target, by a MV-22 with a third party designated laser guided AGM-117 Gryffin missile; the level of deviation from the laser aim point is about 2 m.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqehbwPCfpg

medo wrote:On the video Su-34 in Syria is equipped with TV guided bombs KAB-500Kr for night attacks. Anyone know, if those bombs have IIR homing head to operate at night or they have TV guided homing head and Su-34 have to use Platan complex with them?

The KAB-500Kr, KAB-500-OD, KAB-1500Kr corrected air bombs are fitted with TV/terrain-matching homing heads and various types of warheads. TV homers with target data processing correlation algorithm can "remember" target location and correct bomb's flight trajectory until the impact on the target, thus realizing the "fire and forget" principle.

Such homing heads can help defeat low-contrast and masked targets provided that terrain reference points and target coordinates related to them are available.

The KAB-500Kr, KAB-500-OD, KAB-1500Kr corrected air bombs make part of weapon systems of such front-line aircraft types as Su-27, Su-30, Su-34, Su24M, MIG-29 and others.

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/518/519/

The KAB-500Kr is a 350kg free-fall penetration bomb fitted with a nose-mounted TV guidance system, and has associated control surfaces fitted to its rear end.

The bolt-on front end is a constant diameter tube-like container, with four fixed clipped triangular stabilising fins at the rear end where it is joined to the bomb, and with a glass hemispherical nose.

There is a strake running along the bottom of the bomb to the rear end command datalink antenna.

The add-on tail section has four large clipped triangular fins, with elevator type control surfaces.

The bomb body is fitted with standard Russian 250mm spaced suspension lugs.

The KAB-500Kr is 3.05m long, has a body diameter of 350 mm, a tailspan of 0.75 m and weighs 525 kg.

The bomb contains around 195kg of HE in a total warhead weight of 380kg.

Once the nose-mounted TV seeker has acquired and been designated onto the target, the bomb is released from the aircraft and the TV homing system then guides the weapon to the target automatically.

It can engage concealed targets by the operator defining the target's location by marking the required reference point on his TV display in the aircraft before bomb release.

http://www.cat-uxo.com/#/kab-500kr-bomb/4584081966

KAB-500KR bomb was deployed successfully during the Russian military campaign in Chechnya in the 1990s. The weapon was deployed by SU-24 Fencer and MiG-27 Flogger aircraft performing strike missions.

http://www.deagel.com/Bombs-and-Guidance-Kits/KAB-500KR_a001035001.aspx

Cyberspec wrote:The KAB-500Kr, KAB-500-OD, KAB-1500Kr corrected air bombs are fitted with TV/terrain-matching homing heads and various types of warheads. TV homers with target data processing correlation algorithm can "remember" target location and correct bomb's flight trajectory until the impact on the target, thus realizing the "fire and forget" principle.

Such homing heads can help defeat low-contrast and masked targets provided that terrain reference points and target coordinates related to them are available.

KAB 500 are being directed towards the target using SVP 24. So what is the need for terrain-matching homing heads?

jhelb wrote:

Cyberspec wrote:The KAB-500Kr, KAB-500-OD, KAB-1500Kr corrected air bombs are fitted with TV/terrain-matching homing heads and various types of warheads. TV homers with target data processing correlation algorithm can "remember" target location and correct bomb's flight trajectory until the impact on the target, thus realizing the "fire and forget" principle.

Such homing heads can help defeat low-contrast and masked targets provided that terrain reference points and target coordinates related to them are available.

KAB 500 are being directed towards the target using SVP 24. So what is the need for terrain-matching homing heads?

SVP-24 is not a targeting pod, just a point of impact computing device: it is used for enhance the precision of unguided bombs up to numbers close to the ones using GPS  as their terminal guidance system, like Jdams are.
When an even greater precision (less than five meters) is necessary you would in both case still need other types of terminal guidance systems: SALH, IIR, MMW radars or as in the case of KAB-KR TV/terrain matching.
In this case SVP/24 or GPS can still be useful as they serves as an intermediate course guiding system i.e. taking the guided bomb as so close possible to the target and so allowing optimal condition for the terminal guidance system chosen.
KR homing heads use a  more reliable scenario matching mode instead of just target contrast, something that can explain the preference russians accord to this type of homing head over the others, while westener use SALH above all others systems.

Regarding TV/terrain matching homing heads... what they mean is that the seeker can be aimed at a point in relation to other things on the ground.

For instance you have an open field with a large tree in its centre and a small bush about 50m to its left.

the target might be under camouflage netting that the TV sensor cannot detect or more specifically cannot differentiate from the grass.

Using terrain matching homing head rather than target the tree or the bush you can target a point between the bush and tree where a camouflage net is hiding trenches with enemy soldiers or an HQ.

Equally their might be some cars or a tractor but between them under heavy camouflage is a tank... the TV based seeker can be locked onto the actual target by using visible point targets as a reference point to the actual target/point of aim.

I saw a "Gefest & T" SVP-24 brochure that was for Su-17/-22 modernization long time ago but can not find out it now. Does anyone have it? Thank you.

And laser/GPS guided bombs are even cheaper, yet how many are there stockpiled in Russia? 500?

Russia does not have any GPS guided bombs... such weapons would be useless as shown in the conflict in south ossetia when the US turned off civilian GPS signals in the region.

Laser and Satellite guided weapons are not strategic weapons...

Militarov wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Majority of Soviet stockpile is long gone, you cant upkeep such devices forever.

The cruise missiles are cheap, you can buy thirty-sixty of them for the price of an aircraft.

1000 cruise missile = 20-30 SU-35

And laser/GPS guided bombs are even cheaper, yet how many are there stockpiled in Russia? 500?

That showing planned decision and difference between the us and russia military doctrine,than anything else.

GarryB wrote:

And laser/GPS guided bombs are even cheaper, yet how many are there stockpiled in Russia? 500?

Russia does not have any GPS guided bombs... such weapons would be useless as shown in the conflict in south ossetia when the US turned off civilian GPS signals in the region.

Laser and Satellite guided weapons are not strategic weapons...

Emm....no. Russian satelite guided bombs at this moment use two band reciever Kompas PSN-2001 for both GPS and Glonass.

And to my knowledge Russia did not use any satelite guided bombs in 2008.

Singular_Transform wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Majority of Soviet stockpile is long gone, you cant upkeep such devices forever.

The cruise missiles are cheap, you can buy thirty-sixty of them for the price of an aircraft.

1000 cruise missile = 20-30 SU-35

And laser/GPS guided bombs are even cheaper, yet how many are there stockpiled in Russia? 500?

That showing planned decision and difference between the us and russia military doctrine,than anything else.

Right.

Emm....no. Russian satelite guided bombs at this moment use two band reciever Kompas PSN-2001 for both GPS and Glonass.

And to my knowledge Russia did not use any satelite guided bombs in 2008.

Yeah... my radio gets an enormous range of frequencies too.

GPS is a US system that is very restricted in its civilian version... it has serious altitude and speed limitations that makes it pretty much useless most of the time for weapons guidance... and that is for a reason.

In times of conflict such channels are normally turned off or scrambled so as to be worse than useless.

The receivers in Russian weapons might be dual band but they would be of no value to the design and use of the system.

It would be like a US bomber flying over Nazi Germany with a secure radio link to Lord Hawhaw.

And what does how many sat guide bombs the Russians had in 2008 got to do with how many cruise missiles they have stockpiles now?

GarryB wrote:

Emm....no. Russian satelite guided bombs at this moment use two band reciever Kompas PSN-2001 for both GPS and Glonass.

And to my knowledge Russia did not use any satelite guided bombs in 2008.

Yeah... my radio gets an enormous range of frequencies too.

GPS is a US system that is very restricted in its civilian version... it has serious altitude and speed limitations that makes it pretty much useless most of the time for weapons guidance... and that is for a reason.

In times of conflict such channels are normally turned off or scrambled so as to be worse than useless.

The receivers in Russian weapons might be dual band but they would be of no value to the design and use of the system.

It would be like a US bomber flying over Nazi Germany with a secure radio link to Lord Hawhaw.

And what does how many sat guide bombs the Russians had in 2008 got to do with how many cruise missiles they have stockpiles now?

You said "such weapons would be useless as shown in the conflict in south ossetia when the US turned off civilian GPS signals in the region". Not sure why it would matter if Russians did not use any GPS guided bombs, and from what i am aware very few if any GPS navigation systems were at that time used by Russian forces. I did not mention their number at all.

Well, RuAF insists still on having dual band recievers, for domestic service, while i cant say for sure the reason i have few theories.

All i am saying that number of such weapons in Russian stockpile even today is very small. And they are significantly cheaper than any cruise missile.

Militarov wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Emm....no. Russian satelite guided bombs at this moment use two band reciever Kompas PSN-2001 for both GPS and Glonass.

And to my knowledge Russia did not use any satelite guided bombs in 2008.

Yeah... my radio gets an enormous range of frequencies too.

GPS is a US system that is very restricted in its civilian version... it has serious altitude and speed limitations that makes it pretty much useless most of the time for weapons guidance... and that is for a reason.

In times of conflict such channels are normally turned off or scrambled so as to be worse than useless.

The receivers in Russian weapons might be dual band but they would be of no value to the design and use of the system.

It would be like a US bomber flying over Nazi Germany with a secure radio link to Lord Hawhaw.

And what does how many sat guide bombs the Russians had in 2008 got to do with how many cruise missiles they have stockpiles now?

All i am saying that number of such weapons in Russian stockpile even today is very small. And they are significantly cheaper than any cruise missile.

...And using a Gefest-T upgrade with dumb iron bombs gets the same job done and its even cheaper...come at me bro!

You said "such weapons would be useless as shown in the conflict in south ossetia when the US turned off civilian GPS signals in the region". Not sure why it would matter if Russians did not use any GPS guided bombs, and from what i am aware very few if any GPS navigation systems were at that time used by Russian forces. I did not mention their number at all.

I used the conflict in South Ossetia to make the point that GPS signals are civilian only for a power like Russia and therefore worse than useless as the US CONTROLS THE SIGNALS.

There were plenty of Russian soldiers who used cell phones and also bought commercial civilian GPS hand helds to assist them during that conflict and they were rendered useless by US actions.

You said:

And laser/GPS guided bombs are even cheaper, yet how many are there stockpiled in Russia? 500?

To which I replied that GPS guided bombs would be of no value to Russia.

GPS or Navstar is a US system controlled by the US.

Russia would not benefit from stockpiling weapons using a form of guidance that relys on the US.

All i am saying that number of such weapons in Russian stockpile even today is very small. And they are significantly cheaper than any cruise missile.

Opinion... or can you provide an actual figure/list of weapons they have stockpiled...

Dumb bombs are cheaper still when delivered accurately with a Gefest & T upgraded aircraft.

You guys are arguing about nothing and something we cannot get full details about. Russia does have dual signal bombs (GPS/GLONASS) guided bombs for reasons beyond me really (other than export potential and high accuracy at beginning of conflict before signals for GPS drops by US command.

As well, we are fully unaware of Russia's stockpiles. Most speculated they didn't have enough kalibr missiles but they are proven wrong by Russia's use of them in Syria. Even Russia recently launched cruise missiles in Syria and not much was mentioned about it.

And yes, for Russia's campaign in Syria, there is little to no point in using guided munitions when Russia's stockpile of dumb bombs are probably so massive it's unbelievable and using Gefast & T upgrade gives it near similar (still not as accurate) as these other guided munitions.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Militarov wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Emm....no. Russian satelite guided bombs at this moment use two band reciever Kompas PSN-2001 for both GPS and Glonass.

And to my knowledge Russia did not use any satelite guided bombs in 2008.

Yeah... my radio gets an enormous range of frequencies too.

GPS is a US system that is very restricted in its civilian version... it has serious altitude and speed limitations that makes it pretty much useless most of the time for weapons guidance... and that is for a reason.

In times of conflict such channels are normally turned off or scrambled so as to be worse than useless.

The receivers in Russian weapons might be dual band but they would be of no value to the design and use of the system.

It would be like a US bomber flying over Nazi Germany with a secure radio link to Lord Hawhaw.

And what does how many sat guide bombs the Russians had in 2008 got to do with how many cruise missiles they have stockpiles now?

All i am saying that number of such weapons in Russian stockpile even today is very small. And they are significantly cheaper than any cruise missile.

...And using a Gefest-T upgrade with dumb iron bombs gets the same job done and its even cheaper...come at me bro!

That is all nice and dandy however Gefets cant and is not really equivalent to replace laser, TV and satelite guided munition. Its just making general purpose bombs alot more useful, its not really making them comparable to systems listed above.

miketheterrible wrote:You guys are arguing about nothing and something we cannot get full details about. Russia does have dual signal bombs (GPS/GLONASS) guided bombs for reasons beyond me really (other than export potential and high accuracy at beginning of conflict before signals for GPS drops by US command.

As well, we are fully unaware of Russia's stockpiles. Most speculated they didn't have enough kalibr missiles but they are proven wrong by Russia's use of them in Syria. Even Russia recently launched cruise missiles in Syria and not much was mentioned about it.

And yes, for Russia's campaign in Syria, there is little to no point in using guided munitions when Russia's stockpile of dumb bombs are probably so massive it's unbelievable and using Gefast & T upgrade gives it near similar (still not as accurate) as these other guided munitions.

Actually we do know that majority of guided munition Russians used were built post 2011. i belive Kotemore (or someone else i am not sure) posted pics of crates with stamp dates on them, and that though time dates were closer and closer to present day. That most likely means that stockpiles are of quite token amounts.

When its about Soviet stockpiles of general purpose bombs majority are gone. FAB-250-270s built in late 2000s appeared in Syria.

GarryB wrote:

You said "such weapons would be useless as shown in the conflict in south ossetia when the US turned off civilian GPS signals in the region". Not sure why it would matter if Russians did not use any GPS guided bombs, and from what i am aware very few if any GPS navigation systems were at that time used by Russian forces. I did not mention their number at all.

I used the conflict in South Ossetia to make the point that GPS signals are civilian only for a power like Russia and therefore worse than useless as the US CONTROLS THE SIGNALS.

There were plenty of Russian soldiers who used cell phones and also bought commercial civilian GPS hand helds to assist them during that conflict and they were rendered useless by US actions.

You said:

And laser/GPS guided bombs are even cheaper, yet how many are there stockpiled in Russia? 500?

To which I replied that GPS guided bombs would be of no value to Russia.

GPS or Navstar is a US system controlled by the US.

Russia would not benefit from stockpiling weapons using a form of guidance that relys on the US.

All i am saying that number of such weapons in Russian stockpile even today is very small. And they are significantly cheaper than any cruise missile.

Opinion... or can you provide an actual figure/list of weapons they have stockpiled...

Dumb bombs are cheaper still when delivered accurately with a Gefest & T upgraded aircraft.

As i said arleady in another reply, Gefest is all fine, but its not to be compared with kit or integral onboard guidance systems, not in a million years. If it was Russians wouldnt invest so heavily last few years in various PGMs and put pressure on Kompas to if possible increase their production of recievers. As they currently have very limited production capabilities.

The Russians have never been an all their eggs in one basket type of designer.

Just because a bomb has laser guidance does not mean you can just release it at any angle and any speed and it will hit its target.

You need to be able to line up the target and release it at the right moment... so the Gefest & T upgrade will improve the performance of all weapons... guided or otherwise.

Money well spent.

Not entirely sure where to ask a question like this, but throughout Russia's intervention in Syria, there has been mention of a targeting system for the Su-24 (an no doubt other aircraft) that supposedly gives dumb-bombs accuracy similar to that of guided bombs. I believe the targeting system is being referred to as svp-24, though I am not 100% sure.

Anyway, my question is, how does this targeting system differ from the stock standard CCRP bombing mode that has been used for the best part of the last half-century?

For quite some time, have aircraft been able to autonomously calculate their flight envelope for bomb delivery, so what is different about this svp-24 system? how can it provide such accuracy if there are still some environmental effects, such as wind for example, that could derail and calculations made from solely the aircraft parameters (A problem with CCRP for dumb-bombs)?

It is SVP-24 by Gefast & T. You are correct on that. The difference is more of a sensor fusion using this third party software/hardware that determines lots of factors when trying to drop dumb bombs. As well, it does add a GPS/Glonass subsystem and other targeting structures (using radar to make mapping and what not). It is a simpler add-on system but that has proven to be extremely effective. There are other options too like ground crew who can help the aircrafts by painting targets with a laser (this kind of system been around for a long time) but this is just a newer variant of that.

Think of it as the CCIP system the F-16 had, but it uses more sensors and it more accurate>

Note CCIP stands for Continuously Computed Impact point... in computer games it is a target marker that floats in the HUD showing the impact point of the selected weapon if it were to be released at that time.

Unlike most bombing systems you can use it in free flight... most previous systems you put on the aircrafts autopilot and that flew the aircraft level and at a constant speed and the bombs were automatically released.

And claims this cannot replace guided weapons is bullshit.

If you can get comparable accuracy then why not use cheap and simple unguided bombs to replace expensive and complicated guided munitions that are not that much more accurate.

GarryB wrote:Think of it as the CCIP system the F-16 had, but it uses more sensors and it more accurate>

Note CCIP stands for Continuously Computed Impact point... in computer games it is a target marker that floats in the HUD showing the impact point of the selected weapon if it were to be released at that time.

Unlike most bombing systems you can use it in free flight... most previous systems you put on the aircrafts autopilot and that flew the aircraft level and at a constant speed and the bombs were automatically released.

And claims this cannot replace guided weapons is bullshit.

If you can get comparable accuracy then why not use cheap and simple unguided bombs to replace expensive and complicated guided munitions that are not that much more accurate.

I agree with your last comment 100%, but I think you have mistaken CCRP and CCIP. The former, and the one i was referring to, CCRP, stands for continuously calculated release point, which can also be used in so called "Free flight". It is the more complex of the two but has been used extensively over the last several decades.

CCRP requires the pilot to designate a point on the ground (the target) prior to flying over. The internal computers then calculate the aircraft's flight envelope (Speed, Alt, AoA, acceleration etc...) and provide the pilot with the necessary heading information to the target. He need only follow the HUD prompts and the weapons will be released automatically, during level flight (so long as the trigger is held for the duration). Even the base model Su-27 has a CCRP system. CCIP on the other hand, requires entering a dive onto the target. The latter is more of a CAS method than that of a front-line bomber.

Miketheterrible:
I appreciate the input, and i am certainly not suggesting you are wrong, but I think I am failing to grasp something very fundamental here. To me, a Dumb bomb is a dumb bomb. It has no moving fins, no laser-homing tech, no wind-assisted guidance. Once it is dropped from the aircraft, it is on a fixed, predetermined path to the ground (predetermined by the environmental factors, not the pilot). So with that in mind, the aircraft could have a whole list of sensors at its disposal, but it is never going to account for dynamic events.

For example, assume the aircraft was able to use its targeting sensors to find the perfect firing solution for the pilot. He presses the trigger, and the bomb is away. now, if everything stayed exactly the way it was when the sensors were able to analyse it, the pilot would be home-free. However, in reality, wind is dynamic and changes on a whim. Over a fall of 5,000 metres (the distance the RuAF claimed they were bombing from) wind would have a massive influence over the bomb's flight path. So my question is. How does an aircraft-bound sensor changing this fact? How does it predict something so dynamic and changeable as wind?

Cheetah wrote:

GarryB wrote:Think of it as the CCIP system the F-16 had, but it uses more sensors and it more accurate>

Note CCIP stands for Continuously Computed Impact point... in computer games it is a target marker that floats in the HUD showing the impact point of the selected weapon if it were to be released at that time.

Unlike most bombing systems you can use it in free flight... most previous systems you put on the aircrafts autopilot and that flew the aircraft level and at a constant speed and the bombs were automatically released.

And claims this cannot replace guided weapons is bullshit.

If you can get comparable accuracy then why not use cheap and simple unguided bombs to replace expensive and complicated guided munitions that are not that much more accurate.

I agree with your last comment 100%, but I think you have mistaken CCRP and CCIP. The former, and the one i was referring to, CCRP, stands for continuously calculated release point, which can also be used in so called "Free flight". It is the more complex of the two but has been used extensively over the last several decades.

CCRP requires the pilot to designate a point on the ground (the target) prior to flying over. The internal computers then calculate the aircraft's flight envelope (Speed, Alt, AoA, acceleration etc...) and provide the pilot with the necessary heading information to the target. He need only follow the HUD prompts and the weapons will be released automatically, during level flight (so long as the trigger is held for the duration). Even the base model Su-27 has a CCRP system. CCIP on the other hand, requires entering a dive onto the target. The latter is more of a CAS method than that of a front-line bomber.

Miketheterrible:
I appreciate the input, and i am certainly not suggesting you are wrong, but I think I am failing to grasp something very fundamental here. To me, a Dumb bomb is a dumb bomb. It has no moving fins, no laser-homing tech, no wind-assisted guidance. Once it is dropped from the aircraft, it is on a fixed, predetermined path to the ground (predetermined by the environmental factors, not the pilot). So with that in mind, the aircraft could have a whole list of sensors at its disposal, but it is never going to account for dynamic events.

For example, assume the aircraft was able to use its targeting sensors to find the perfect firing solution for the pilot. He presses the trigger, and the bomb is away. now, if everything stayed exactly the way it was when the sensors were able to analyse it, the pilot would be home-free. However, in reality, wind is dynamic and changes on a whim. Over a fall of 5,000 metres (the distance the RuAF claimed they were bombing from) wind would have a massive influence over the bomb's flight path. So my question is. How does an aircraft-bound sensor changing this fact? How does it predict something so dynamic and changeable as wind?

Figure it out. I already explained it. Sensors and data calculation done by the onboard computer before dropping the bomb. So far, it works great. Don't believe it? be my guest. Not like I give a shit.