Project 955: Borei class SSBN

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there any aspect in which the borei is superior than the ohio or vanguard class SSBNs?

Ohio is not exactly new compared to Boreii.

Also, a more classified question you could not have asked.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there any aspect in which the borei is superior than the ohio or vanguard class SSBNs?

Borei is almost a generation and half ahead of Ohio and Vanguard

Superior in Acoustics , Sensors/Sonars , Hydrodynamics , Far Superior SLBM with PenAids ......I am sure there are many classified areas where we would not know how it performs.

Superiority of Borei will get better when Borei-A ( 955U ) comes into picture

Well thats a relief. So I geuss the only aspect the ohio is wuperior in is number, range and accuracy of missiles.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Well thats a relief. So I geuss the only aspect the ohio is wuperior in is number, range and accuracy of missiles.

Just the numbers since Ohio can carry 24 SLBM over 16 for Borei and 20 for Borei-A.


Bulava SLBM is far far ahead when it comes to break out potential against ABM , Accurace/Boost Phase Speed , Range would be equal.

Western ICBM/SLBM only have passive warhead , Bulava warhead is manouverable with possible retargetting potential.

Comparing Borei/Bulava with Ohio/Trident is really Apples to Orange Comparision.

Not to say West wont come up with new competing system just that how things stand now.

Putting 24 missiles in one sub is not an advantage... the number of strategic warheads the Navy operates is limited, so at between 1,200 and 1,500 warheads assuming an even number of warheads per service that means between 400 and 500 warheads carried in SSBNs.

Having 24 missiles in each sub assuming say 6 warheads per missile that means they can have a maximum of 2-3 Ohio class vessels with 144 warheads per vessel, 2 vessels carrying almost 300 warheads (288) or three vessels with 432, or four vessels with 576 warheads... 3-4 SSBNs simply wouldn't be a viable force... too vulnerable... too many eggs in one basket so to speak.

Just the numbers since Ohio can carry 24 SLBM over 16 for Borei and 20 for Borei-A.

Yes Austin ,and that without taking into consideration that SSBN(X), will have only 16 launch tubes instead of 24 of actual outdated Ohio, mantaining more or less the same submerged mass.

"Casually" this is exactly the design solution adopted for Pr 955/955U... .


KomissarBojanchev about comparison between Trident D5 and Bulava you have definitely selected the wrong sector; here the Russian scintifical lead over West is simply crushing (15 years...at least).

If you want to talk of the sectors where West truly enjoy a traditional lead over Russia , search in the microprocessor or UAV fields you will be much more lucky

12 or 24 tubes is a matter of where you place most of your Nuclear Warhead , US gave more stress on placing it on Submarine and SU/Russia were strong on Land ICBM.

So even though US had 24 tubes they had about 12 plus SSBN and much higher upload potential and operational tempo , compared to Russian SSBN and these were designed in Cold War where START agreement had higher limit then what it is today

Ofcourse with New Start things have changed and the new ceiling on Strategic Weapons means US and Russia would have 16 Tubes and low number of submarines

SSBN Alexander Nevsky to Pass State Trials in December

State acceptance trials of Project 955 Borei nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine Alexander Nevsky will be held in Dec 2012, reports RIA Novosti referring to press service of Sevmash shipyard.

According to the shipyard's press service, the submarine recently took the sea for trials. It was initially planned to put the sub into service in 2013. Later on, the then-minister of defense Anatoly Serdiukov said Alexander Nevsky would join Pacific Fleet in 2014.

First Borei-class submarine, SSBN Yury Dolgoruky which delivery was postponed several times, is ready for acceptance, said an insider of Sevmash. However, exact dates of commissioning are not reported.

Project 955 Borei nuclear-powered submarines will be armed with R-30 Bulava ballistic missiles. The missile has successfully passed all trials and will be put into service together with SSBN Yury Dolgoruky.

At present, Sevmash continues trials of SSGN Severodvinsk, lead sub of Yasen class. The submarine recently held first cruise missile firing tests, reports Interfax referring to a source in the shipyard.

http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16504

Russian Navy Commissions SSBN Yury Dolgoruky

Photo: SSBN Yury Dolgoruky in the White Sea. Forum.sevastopol.info
The Project 955 Borei nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) Yury Dolgoruky was commissioned into Russian Navy on Sunday, Dec 30, reported sources in defense industry.

"Signing of the acceptance certificate was preceded by successful completion of the closing phase of trials, including missiles' guidance command channel. The submarine-launched ballistic missile Bulava was commissioned along with the submarine. In the new year, Yury Dolgoruky will be in experimental service", the insider told Interfax.

As for him, the acceptance certificate was signed at Sevmash shipyard on Sunday in the presence of deputy defense minister Yury Borisov, Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Viktor Chirkov, president of United Shipbuilding Corporation Andrei Diachkov, and Director General of Sevmash shipyard Mikhail Budnichenko.

Deputy defense minister Yury Borisov earlier told reporters that SSBN Yury Dolgoruky would be commissioned at the end of 2012. "I hope that on December 30 we'll take the sub in service. That would be a kind of a stocking-stuffer, I've already planned out my trip to Sevmash", Borisov said then. He pointed out that all defects had been eliminated in accordance with the schedule, including problems of missile guidance channel.

On the same day of Dec 30, another Borei-class submarine SSBN Vladimir Monomakh was launched in Severodvinsk. According to RIA Novosti, the sub was laid down on March 19, 2006 on occasion of the Russian submarine fleet's 100-th jubilee.

Project 955 Borei fourth-generation submarines were developed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau (St. Petersburg). New technologies of shipboard radioelectronics and noise reduction were applied while their construction.

Basic weapon of the Borei-class submarines is ballistic missile system Bulava. Each sub may carry 16 solid-propellant ballistic missiles R-30 Bulava with flight range over 10,000 km equipped with independently targetable reentry vehicles.

Warhead of each Bulava missile consists of six reentry vehicles. Submarines are equipped with surfacing rescue chamber capable to accommodate all crewmembers.

SSBN Yury Dolgoruky was laid down in 1996 at Sevmash shipyard. Two batch subs, Alexander Nevsky and Vladimir Monomakh were keel-laid there in 2004 and 2006 respectively. First of them is undergoing shipyard's trials; the latter one is under construction.

In May 2012, defense ministry and United Shipbuilding Corporation signed three contracts for modernized Project 955A submarines; each of those 5 submarines will be capable to carry 20 Bulava ballistic missiles. The contract for designing of the lead sub under the modernized Borei project bearing working name of Svyatitel Nikolai was tied with Rubin design bureau; for construction of the lead sub - with Sevmash shipyard; for construction of 4-sub batch of upgraded Borei-class submarines – with United Shipbuilding Corporation.

Therefore, eight strategic submarines are to be built and delivered to Russian Navy till 2020 under arms procurement program; three of them are Project 955 Borei four-generation subs with 16 SLBMs Bulava each, and five are Project 955A Borei-A fifth-generation subs with 20 SLBMs Bulava each.

Seems Borei class can also fire strategic cruise missile unlike previous generation SSBN quoting Navy Commander Viktor Chirkov.

http://vpk.name/news/82257_apl_yurii_dolgorukii_smozhet_primenyat_vyisokotochnoe_oruzhie.html

The officials need to stop harping about 8 (or 10 lol) Boreys entering service before 2020, or start laying boats down like fire.

2nd and 3rd boat took 6.5 years to construct, and while construction can theoretically increase in speed, the new boats are a larger design anyways, so I have no reason to assume time will shorten magically. Then we need to add several years more time to commission. Now let's assume that the time between launch and commission will go down, since much of the wait was due to Bulava and lack of naval facilities to host the ship.

The 4th ship, laid down earlier in 2012, but work started some time earlier. It will probably be launched and commissioned before 2012.
What about the next boat? If a vessel is laid down in 2013, it will launch no earlier than 2018-2019...and it MIGHT be commissioned by 2020.

I don't see how more than 5 boats will be in service by the date that they keep harping about, and frankly I expect only 4 will realistically be in service.

Yasan is another issue all together. Don't see how these times will be met unless another shipyard is brought into the picture.
We will be lucky to have 10 boats of both types in service by 2020.

Back in Soviet times (and right after) Bars boats were built and commissioned in 2-3 years tops. What would it take to go back to that rate? Is it even possible, even with money?
We will see I guess.

Agreed production is a big bottle neck and mearly quoting figures wont magically make things work.

Add to that they are making the next class more complex then previous one leading to more time to solve issues , trial and commision it.

Add to comedy of numbers

http://vpk.name/news/82259_rf_vsled_za_yuriem_dolgorukim_poluchit_eshe_14_apl_borei_i_yasen.html

Russian DM now says there will be 15 Strategic Submarines and Attack submerine ""Following this submarine Russian Navy will receive seven strategic submarines of this class, and seven multi-purpose submarines," - said the Minister."


So he is now contradicting his boss putin who said 8 SSBN and 8 SSGN

With 6 Delta IV SSBN armed with brand new SS-N-23 Sineva and Liner SLBM, Russia doesn't need to hurry with Boreis.

The Sineva and Liner missiles have a range of over 11.000 km, 4 or more MIRV/MARV and the CEP is 100 or less meters. 96 such Beasts are a very potent force with TN warheads. You can always add the Topol-M and RS-24 ICBMs to the account. The only decent US strategic weapon is the Trident II SLBM, The Minuteman III is just to old to be a first class weapon!

http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/133253.html

Photos from Yuri Dolgoruki commision - including interior.

The 5th and 6th Boreis will be laid down this year.

http://www.navy.ru/news/navy/?ELEMENT_ID=134339

TR1, looks like you got your wish

Let's hope these plans materialize- if so we would get 6 Boreiis by ~2021, which is not bad at all, and at that pint the BDRMs can be retired as new boats come off the line.

The launch of Monomakh cleared slip space, and in short (relatively) order Dolgoruky and Severdovinsk will be handed over to fleet, so Sevmash can focus on completing Kazan.
Also if Belgorod is completed in a timely manner, this will make more much needed space for new builds.

Praying another 885 is laid down this year.

TR1 wrote:http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/133253.html

Photos from Yuri Dolgoruki commision - including interior.

Looks Good , I would have expected them to show more of interior picture ......all shiny LCD its the first Russian all digital submarine is what i read

Now we even have interior of Boreii, and still no decent external shots of Arihant?!?

Indian security must be amazing, or not a lot of interested civies with cameras.

TR1 wrote:Now we even have interior of Boreii, and still no decent external shots of Arihant?!?

Indian security must be amazing, or not a lot of interested civies with cameras.

Indian Security Estb is very paranoid when it comes to releasing photos , So dont expect any thing from Indian Estb when Arihant starts her sea trial may be some US Magazine via their Intelligence Source will publish the first picture of Arihant

TR1 wrote:The officials need to stop harping about 8 (or 10 lol) Boreys entering service before 2020, or start laying boats down like fire.

2nd and 3rd boat took 6.5 years to construct, and while construction can theoretically increase in speed, the new boats are a larger design anyways, so I have no reason to assume time will shorten magically. Then we need to add several years more time to commission. Now let's assume that the time between launch and commission will go down, since much of the wait was due to Bulava and lack of naval facilities to host the ship.

The 4th ship, laid down earlier in 2012, but work started some time earlier. It will probably be launched and commissioned before 2012.
What about the next boat? If a vessel is laid down in 2013, it will launch no earlier than 2018-2019...and it MIGHT be commissioned by 2020.

I don't see how more than 5 boats will be in service by the date that they keep harping about, and frankly I expect only 4 will realistically be in service.

Yasan is another issue all together. Don't see how these times will be met unless another shipyard is brought into the picture.
We will be lucky to have 10 boats of both types in service by 2020.

Back in Soviet times (and right after) Bars boats were built and commissioned in 2-3 years tops. What would it take to go back to that rate? Is it even possible, even with money?
We will see I guess.

You are probably being too conservative (maybe to avoid disappointment).
It is entirely feasible for Sevmash to deliver all 8 Boreis by 2020. It all depends on the funding of the project. The plant is capable to produce them (just like in Soviet times) at a more rapid pace then it has been thus far. With the lead ship (YD) already commisioned, the bugs cleared and the experience gained, the build time should be lower for the next units (possibly as low as 4 years between lay down and commision). The timing will depend on funding from the MoD.

I think US and Western Intelligence community will be salivating at the prospects of Borei class going on first detterent patrol , They would be stationing their latest Virginia class SSN and special Ships from US and NATO to gather as much as information possible from these new Subs.

I am sure the Russian Navy and Intelligence community might be scratching their heads to figure out how best to avoid getting detected by US/NATO SSN and Intelligence vessel

I am sure the Russian Navy and Intelligence community might be scratching their heads to figure out how best to avoid getting detected by US/NATO SSN and Intelligence vessel

If they actually managed to evade all western surveillance the direct result will be an enormous investment in western technology to make it detectable.


The best thing the Russians can do is have an old gramaphone on board with a noisy record to play while the sub is operating to make the west think she is easy to find and track... and then when she is needed... unplug the gramaphone... and disappear.

I remember reading about how noisy the Soviet subs were yet during the Cuban missile crisis all of a sudden they disappeared and appeared near Cuba... I suspect they already are playing that game...

GarryB wrote:If they actually managed to evade all western surveillance the direct result will be an enormous investment in western technology to make it detectable.

Does West Actually have the money these days with all those debt ?

The best thing the Russians can do is have an old gramaphone on board with a noisy record to play while the sub is operating to make the west think she is easy to find and track... and then when she is needed... unplug the gramaphone... and disappear.

I am sure there are better ways to do it then play gramaphone , your suggestion is hillarous though

http://interfax.ru/politics/news.asp?id=284781

5th Boreii will be named Alexandr Suvorov! Now that is a proper name.
The ship will only be laid down in July, on Navy Day though...
6th boat is planned for November 2013, will be named Mikhail Kutuzov.

http://interfax.ru/politics/news.asp?id=284781

Pretty late in the year, I think there is potential for the dates to slip.
For now I will stay with my estimate of 4 Boreiis by 2020.

Im more concern about 885 class and its time schedule than Borei.

I was reading somewhere about shipyard intentions to pop up Borei class ahead of schedule.

Yes here it is.

By 2018 it is planned to build eight submarines of this project.

LINK