Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

I doubt that Su-35 have jammer to jam Link 16 datalink, but for sure have ground based air defense, so in Russian air space Su-35 and other fighters will have also support of ground jammers, which could blind their opponents.

GarryB wrote:

but
also potentially high power jamming against Link
16 and GPS channels, as well as embedded IFF
capabilities.

His speculation. I have never seen the Russians claim any ability for it to jam anything.

As far as I am aware it can be used to scan for targets to basically detect their presence and very rough location, and likely can listen passively for emissions.

it seems true

Geolocate on JTIDS. Many extol the advantages bestowed by ‘Network Centricity’. However, if passive L-Band radars in ‘sniffing’ mode detect emissions from JTIDS nodes – or IFF – then the geolocation of these emitters can be performed at long range. This knowledge then confers a combat advantage to those with the L-Band sensors.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-140909-1.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

The internal weapon capacity of the F-22 and F35 is pathetic and external pylons will be used as soon as possible to make them useful tools of war.

The Su-35 is not stealthy, but its weapons and sensors make it so dangerous to the F-35 that the USAF is looking at an Su-35 equivalent in the Silent Eagle...

GarryB wrote:The internal weapon capacity of the F-22 and F35 is pathetic and external pylons will be used as soon as possible to make them useful tools of war.

I'll grant you the F-35, but not the F-22. The F-22 carries the exact same number of AAMs as an F-15, the only difference being that it only fits two WVR AAMs: two AIM-9 and six AIM-120.

GarryB wrote:The Su-35 is not stealthy, but its weapons and sensors make it so dangerous to the F-35 that the USAF is looking at an Su-35 equivalent in the Silent Eagle...

AFAIK the Silent Eagle is DOA since it failed to get an ROK order and failed to get export clearance to Saudi Arabia. Nobody in the USAF ever really took it seriously. Plus, good luck funding it.

I'll grant you the F-35, but not the F-22. The F-22 carries the exact same number of AAMs as an F-15, the only difference being that it only fits two WVR AAMs: two AIM-9 and six AIM-120.

Sorry, but I am not really impressed, the F-22 is supposed to be some god like aircraft flying high and fast and shooting down enemy planes left right and centre... with a 50% PK with AMRAAM against low tech unaware targets, and the likelyhood that if it is within sidewinder range with the enemy then the enemy is likely within IRST range of the F-22 then I am not hugely impressed.

I mean the Russians just have to come up with an X band noise jammer and fit it to the nose of a 122mm unguided rocket, and the first engagement between Su-35s with two 5 shot rocket pods with a total of 10 jamming rockets and the other 12 weapon points with wing tip jamming pods and 10 AAMs and the first AMRAAM coming in means one rocket fired and the HOJ feature of the AMRAAM meaning a kill... of an unguided rocket.

Sure the Su-35 might never see the F-22 at BVR, but the F-22 might never get a kill either.

Exercises with India proved it is not a case that US pilots are trained and everyone else is a note from their doctor away from being a suicide bomber.

Nobody in the USAF ever really took it seriously.

Yeah, cause they want to spend 200 million per plane on their F-35 "cheap Numbers plane", and retire to a nice well paid job at Boeing...

They claim Russia is not the enemy, yet they clearly are spending money on fighting Russia.

No other air defence system would require F-35s let alone F-22s.

Ahh well... when they find they actually have to start reducing their budget they might realise that apart from Russia and perhaps China they can do most jobs with F-16s and F-15s and that a modern Flanker equivalent would be much cheaper and much more effective in practical terms than F-22s and even F-35s.

With modern weapons being much more capable then certainly modern aircraft don't need to carry dozens of missiles, but for combat persistence it is nice to have more than a few.

Given how expensive a Silent Eagle would be, and the exhaustion of legacy airframes, I don't think we can extrapolate that the US is focused on potentially fighting Russia or China, with the acquisition of the F-35.

When the Su-35 operates with jamming rockets, please alerts me, because I honestly find the likeliness of that happening to be zero.

Is jamming rockets a huge step from the decoy rockets they already have for the S-13 rocket pods?

It would not be a very sneaky wartime trick if it was revealed in peacetime...

If it bothers you then replace jamming rockets with towed decoys:

I don't think we can extrapolate that the US is focused on potentially fighting Russia or China, with the acquisition of the F-35.

So which war are they going to need an all stealth fighter force for?

Cuba?

North Korea?

Iran?

I know... they want to return to Somalia.

The wars so far have been about oil, and resources, so lets use these criteria to work out who they are spending their money on defeating, while taking into account their claims that Russia is no longer the enemy even though they refuse to sign a piece of paper to that effect regarding ABM systems.

They need to penetrate modern capable defences that include S-300 and potentially S-400 SAMs and to come up against fighters of at least Flanker quality... and it isn't China or Russia?

I don't have an issue if they want to build their forces to fight Russia or China, they end up with hugely expensive stealth aircraft that are expensive to maintain and operate for a war that will be decided by nukes.

When you basically control the economic system for the whole world you can get away with just printing more money... of course the monsters they created... and I don't mean the Shah of Iran or Pinochet, I mean the international companies that bypass local laws and don't pay tax anywhere by being based in Ireland or some Island in the Carribean... will soon be beyond their control and will start amassing their own "armies".

Blackwater is probably giving the major corporations ideas too.

20 years ago if the banks had to have bailouts they would have been required to invest that money locally to create jobs and growth, but because there were no restrictions it went into max profit... factories in China or offshore accounts and enormous bonuses for CEOs... and no body cares.

The US has withdrawn from Iraq and hoped to maintain law and order there using Blackwater and other mercs whom are largely ex US service personel... a retirement program for people who don't want to be prosecuted for anything they might do...

BTW it wouldn't take much to design and build an Eagle II... with the current focus on BVR combat and a move away from dogfighting capability an F-15 sized aircraft with two big engines... it doesn't need a power to weight ratio above 1... a top speed of mach 2, the ability to fly for hours with a huge AESA radar, 5-6 g performance, and most importantly low operating costs and the ability to carry 20 missiles... A mix of Air to Air and Anti Radiation missiles would be ideal... especially if they are related... ie AMRAAM with an ARM function.
Most of the missiles can be semi recessed on the belly in every nook and cranny, with a nice big wing with lots of weapons pylons for multiple missiles.

AMRAAMs aren't heavy so it could have a weapon capacity less than an F-16.

With existing systems like JSTARS and AWACS and other assets it can go in first and deal with enemy aircraft and SAMs.

Operating with jammer aircraft like the Growler and any enemy plane that takes off or enemy ground radar that lights up will have a missile headed towards it very quickly.

During the post cold war period the only air force that has even come close to continuing to operate was Iraqs and that was only because of the size.

This new plane will not be stealthy, it will have an enormous AESA radar in its nose and the missile capacity to trade missiles with a group of threats at one time... including threats on the ground.

Most importantly it will cost 40 million dollars instead of 150 million plus.

GarryB wrote:Sorry, but I am not really impressed, the F-22 is supposed to be some god like aircraft flying high and fast and shooting down enemy planes left right and centre... with a 50% PK with AMRAAM against low tech unaware targets, and the likelyhood that if it is within sidewinder range with the enemy then the enemy is likely within IRST range of the F-22 then I am not hugely impressed.

Fine, you aren't impressed, but you haven't explained why carrying the F-15's AAM load internally is "pathetic" either.

GarryB wrote:They claim Russia is not the enemy, yet they clearly are spending money on fighting Russia.

No other air defence system would require F-35s let alone F-22s.

Except China. Or anyone else that buys a modern, "double-digit" SAM system to upgrade their air defense forces.

GarryB wrote:So which war are they going to need an all stealth fighter force for?

Do recall that SAMs did kill aircraft over Iraq and the FRY. Stealth aids survivability.

Plus, if NATO waited a year or so for Libya, you'd have seen F-22s flying around rather than EF-2000s and Rafales thanks to the presence of S-300s. Why design an aircraft that's an easy target for a modern, exportable SAM system like the S-300PMU-2 or HQ-9? Wait, I know...we'll sign the ABM paper if Russia signs one stating that they won't export the S-300P or S-400!

GarryB wrote:A mix of Air to Air and Anti Radiation missiles would be ideal... especially if they are related... ie AMRAAM with an ARM function.

That's called JDRADM or NGM and is in development: one missile to replace at the very least AMRAAM and HARM.

Fine, you aren't impressed, but you haven't explained why carrying the F-15's AAM load internally is "pathetic" either.

For the same reason I wouldn't be impressed with the Flanker if it came out with the same 5 weapon pylon configuration as the Mig-21.

The F-15 is a plane from the 1970s, now I realise that AMRAAM is much better than Sparrow and that the F-22 has other things going for it, but 150 million plus per plane for the same payload?

It is very much like the Subpar Whore-net detractors, or the F-14 mafia say about the new Hornet and the aircraft it was supposed to replace.

Putting those F-22 engines in an F-15 and the radar and other bits and bobs and upgrading it a bit... well look at it... that is pretty much what they did to create the F-22. At least the YF-23 is interesting.

The F-22 looks like an F-15 that has been left in the sun too long and the plastic has melted.

Except China. Or anyone else that buys a modern, "double-digit" SAM system to upgrade their air defense forces.

Yes, of course. Fiji buys an S-300V2 battery and all of a sudden F-15s wont cut it and the US needs F-22s...

Do recall that SAMs did kill aircraft over Iraq and the FRY. Stealth aids survivability.

Don't take this the wrong way Sean, but the US has made war so easy and safe... for Americans, that it has become the favoured option for politicians and media alike. Americans might think that is a good thing, but for the rest of the world it just makes you look bad, and worse it makes us feel unsafe in your presence.

Wait, I know...we'll sign the ABM paper if Russia signs one stating that they won't export the S-300P or S-400!

Hmmm, you need an ABM system to protect you from missiles Iran doesn't have and nuclear warheads they aren't developing, and Russia exports a few SAM systems to countries who fear the US might invade them if they don't buy them.

To be brutally honest I wouldn't trust a signature from the US that an ABM system would never be used against Russia anyway, so sign or dont sign... at the end of the day when you get to stage 3 or 4 of your world wide ABM system the Russians will simply use it as a reason to withdraw from the INF treaty and the new START treaty and simply build enough warheads to overwhelm any defence... I am sure that will make the US and Europe much safer...

PAK-FAs internal load is pretty pathetic if we consider it a successor to Su-27 as well.

David Cenciotti from 'The Aviationist' has an interesting piece on the Flanker vis-a-vis the F-22 and F-35:

the aviationist wrote:Forget the F-22 and F-35, this is a real Super Maneuverable Fighter plane: the Russian Su-35 Flanker-E

The Su-35 (NATO designation Flanker E), Russia’s latest version of the famous super-maneuverable multirole fighter jet has demonstrated its stunning capabilities during the first day of the 50th Paris Air Show at Le Bourget.

During its display, the 4++ generation aircraft has showcased some almost impossible manoeuvres, demonstrating unbelievable low-speed handling authority.

...

Aviationist

:russia

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

Will this possible ?

moskit wrote::russia

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

Will this possible ?

Only if the SU-35 has no radar, no active or passive counter measures, no MAWS and only one working engine, also if the F-35 has AWACS support, U.S BVR can't be done without AWACS or at the very least the F-35 hasn't demonstrated such abilities yet.

Update: This missile doesn't have a range of 250+km it has a killzone of around 60km and max range of 100+km which places it around the AIM-120C and R-77-1, and wow is this price tag for real 2mill pounds (GBP) a pop.

AlfaT8 wrote:

moskit wrote::russia

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

Will this possible ?

Only if the SU-35 has no radar, no active or passive counter measures, no MAWS and only one working engine, also if the F-35 has AWACS support, U.S BVR can't be done without AWACS or at the very least the F-35 hasn't demonstrated such abilities yet.

Update: This missile doesn't have a range of 250+km it has a killzone of around 60km and max range of 100+km which places it around the AIM-120C and R-77-1, and wow is this price tag for real 2mill pounds (GBP) a pop.

What is the no escape zone that they talk about anywhere you see the name of Meteor ?? You can escape evry missile and jam it.

To deal with F-22/35 you just need a stealth mig-21 with Pak-fa's OLS and ground based long range radar to guide them to the target. It will have a small rcs like 0.001 and would be detected by F-22 from 50 km while the OLS will detect them at 60-100 km.

A CGI of proposed F-15 2040C.2040C is a service life extension programme with some notable enhancements to the fighting capabilities of F-15C to make them potent enough to handle emerging threats & enable them to fly until 2040 or later.Proposed sensor package includes AN/APG-82(V)1 AESA developed for Silent Eagle,Talon HATE dual purpose pod.The upgrade will also unlock 5 more weapon stations through 'quad pack carriage system' & will boost the total Air-to-Air missile carrying capacities to 16AAMs.F-15 2040C will supplement F-22 Raptors in airsuperiority missions & will serve as a 'missile truck' for the leading F-22s (just like the quiver of an archer) in a mixed flight. how would a fully armed su 35 counter this new threat ?

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

The F-35 hopes it does not have to manouver because it is not that great at manouvering...

Missiles are never 100%... why do you think the F-35 carrys a gun?

With very limited internal space for weapons and external weapons ruining its stealth capabilities the F-35 will be at a serious disadvantage against an Su-35... which is faster, and has longer flight range, carries rather more ready to fire missiles and also has a gun and very powerful radar and IRST and datalink.

Assuming the sophisticated self defence suites and likely towed jammers mean neither has effective missiles then it comes down to guns and manouver capability and also speed and range to determine who can run away from whom... and I think you will agree the F-35 cannot run and wont likely be able to hide either.

What is the no escape zone that they talk about anywhere you see the name of Meteor ?? You can escape evry missile and jam it.

The NEZ or no escape zone is the range at which the missile is powered and therefore able to pull rather high g turns and recover energy.

The meteor has a large NEZ because it is ramjet powered which burns for a large portion of its flight range.

Most missiles have an acceleration phase with a high energy rocket motor and then a cruise phase with lower energy longer burning fuel that maintains speed for much longer range. Many short to medium range missiles just have the initial fuel and accelerate rapidly and then coast to their target... the latter types of missiles can have greatly reduced max ranges if they have to do a lot of manouvering and can simply literally run out of momentum and fall from the skies if the target changes direction a lot.

Remember a missile has tiny control surfaces and little lifting wing area unlike an aircraft.

Also some missiles like the R-73 have thrust vectoring so while they are in powered flight their ability to turn is very high. When the rocket motor burns out they rely on control surfaces and so their ability to turn reduces significantly when they are coasting.

Su-35S is considered to has better electronics and jammers. All these upgrades aim for F-15 to reduce the Flanker’s edge but no decision has been made yet. I had read that they also were considering that restarting production of the F-22, or buy brand new F-15s

So they are pretty much admitting even 2 and a half thousand F-35s wont be enough and wont be able to carry enough weapons to cope with an Su-35 equipped enemy.

The amusing thing is that the Su-35 could perform the same role in the Russian military... with PAK FAs near the border and ground based sensors scanning for threats the Su-35s armed with R-37Ms could be fired from 300km away to kill those F-15s and any AWACS or JSTARS operating over enemy territory...

For any one who understands Radar , How true is this  

I personally doubt F-35 can maintain a 0.001 m2 RCS that must be a very narrow figure from a re-rediating cone

wait ,  this video claims the perfect situation where the rcs is 0.001 sqm , this will not happen in real life , the plane will get painted from various directions . Also , the IRBIS E has a reach of 56 km against a 0.001 sqm target and not the value presented .
Also , the video claims that the apg 81 has a comparable if not better range performance than the IRBIS E , based on what did he come to the conclusion?
He also said the apg 77 v 1 has an even longer range , which is wrong because look https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=945 the maximmum range with the *10 watt modules* is 160mi , or 260 km . Lol im starting to get tired of people just assuming superiority with no numbers to prove .
Also , there are UHF radars , such as Gamma DE with enough resolution to guide a missile . And from considerable ranges .

Guys what do you think of the radar comparison this guy has presented?

Its actually decently well explained, in terms of understanding the topic, i am suprised. Its good plastic explanation of basics.

well ye its well explained , but militarov do you agree with his comparison between those radars?

In this video the formulas are correct but it's not the whole truth! Formulas explain not everything, so it's just too simple!

Once and for all!!!

A stealth fighter with radar ON is never really stealth. Enemy jets can see the radarbeam of stealth fighter before his radar can see anything. For example a jet can detect with his radar at a range of 150 km a normal enemy (no stealth), but his radar can bee seen at much longer distance. To avoid this special radars are used in stealth jets LPI radar (Low Probability of Intercept). They try with LPI to use several techniques to hide the radar, emitted from stealth jets, for example using a broader spectra of wavelenght. This works if the stealth jets engages old enemy jets, technology of the 80ies. But against modern jets it's really useless, because the sensors are much better and the power of computer in the 21st century is a bit different than 30 years before, so the intercepted radar signals could be processed very easy to get valuable information!

So the F-35 will never see a Su-35 on radar screen before the Su-35 see the F-35. In reality boths jets with radar on will detect each other at the same time and same distance.
What is now the great advantage of stealth??? Datalink is the answer! F-22 and F-35 are able to be guided by AWACS, or other jets with datalink capability, with their radar OFF! So a jet can be out of fighting distance and guide the stealth fighters to intercept enemies. In reality against a country like China or Russia the concept will maybe not work, but against smaller countries like Iraq it worked very fine.

So stealth technology is a really special technology that gives you a advantage in SOME VERY SPECIAL situations not more! It's not a Wunderwaffe. In a great big conflict it can be complete useless or the game changer, depends on the tactic and the opponent!

HM1199 wrote:well ye its well explained , but militarov do you agree with his comparison between those radars?

One to one situation is bullshit! If F-35 turns radar on he is visible and so you can shoot him down!

Tha AN/APG-81in the F-35 has a detection range of 150 km against a target with RCS 1 qm. But, but, but...not in the LPI mode!!! in LPI mode the detection range is drastic lower!

If F-35 is guided via LPI datalink the situation is different.

azi , the su 35 uses the L150-35 RWR with a number of identifiable radars increased to 1024 , is it able in your opinion to detect lpi radar?

HM1199 wrote:azi , the su 35 uses the L150-35 RWR with a number of identifiable radars increased to 1024 , is it able in your opinion to detect lpi radar?

It's not a question of radar, it's question of data processing. LPI Radar seems like background noise to most old fighters, but if you know to filter the correct signals it wil shine like a star. I don't know but I think the russians know this for long and F-35 is with radar in LPI mode not invisible to a Su-35.

Theoretical a old Mig-21 with old hardware but modern computer to process the correct data can fuck a F-35. Ok, still not best option but theoretical possible.