Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

ah i see , azi , and does filtering the correct signals work against all lpi methods ? for example would it work against an apg 81 sending complex waveforms and different frequencies?

HM1199 wrote:ah i see , azi , and does filtering the correct signals work against all lpi methods ? for example would it work against an apg 81 sending complex waveforms and different frequencies?

It depends from the type RWR system you use.
They are basically radio receivers, the difference is that the older ones would look at the pulse repeating frequence; once they saw a series same radio waves incoming they knew it was a radar, alerted its presence and began to catalogate the incoming emission to know what radar it was.
It is not that such RWR don't see the waves send by a radar in LPI mode, just as they are not repeating themselves the bell simply doesn't ring out.
Now, actual RWR are complete ESM system: they have a way greater angular resolution, so they can ascertain the emission point of any incoming radio waves with great precision, if they sense a standard radar he previously said bell ring if a series of casual like emissions coming from a single point in space, another bell ring.

so basically the idea is that modern rwr's can determine from which point exactly those radio waves are coming and pinpoint the source right?
and by extention , the R77 -1 's seeker has a second passive channel , that seeks radio emissions from a max range of 200 km , so we can say that a su 35 can position the radar of the apg 81 and fling a missile at it at a reasonable range such as 50 - 60 km for a missile kill?

and by extention , the R77 -1 's seeker has a second passive channel , that seeks radio emissions from a max range of 200 km , so we can say that a su 35 can position the radar of the apg 81 and fling a missile at it at a reasonable range such as 50 - 60 km for a missile kill?

No... in passive radar homing mode an R-77-1 could detect an incoming AMRAAM with its ARH seeker active and attack it, but a LPI radar spends 95% of its time listening and less than 5% emitting so a passive radar homing missile would not have a constant signal to home in on.

Having said that NATO datalinks are L band... the same wavelength as the wing mounted radar arrays in the Su-35 and PAK FA so lots of datalink traffic would allow very long range AAMs to be used to deal with assets like AWACS and JSTARS that might be supplying data to F-22s and F-35s...

Watched a video about the combat simulation between these two, not long time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZoF7hu0wAI&t=150s

So, what do you guys think, is the situation really that bad for the Sukhoy or the vid is just another Pro-US BS ?

marketing statements vs marketing statements - who wins? Don't know cause no one knows what each side is really using and what are the real perimeters.

Some claims by USA pilots flying F-22 state its a POS and has trouble finding Sukhois. Some others claim its the second coming of Jesus.

We are here for knowledge and facts. Not youtube video fantasies.

Very simply the Su-35 and F-22 should be immune to each others medium range AAMs, the Su-35 can carry rather more air to air weapons, is faster and has longer flight range.

It also has a range of optical and radar sensors for detecting enemy aircraft, including wing mounted L band radar AESA array antennas.

Even assuming they don't work there are plenty of long wave ground based sensors that would be working with the Flanker to detect the F-22 at long range.

As the Su-35 approaches the F-22 it will be fired upon with AMRAAMs, but its EW capabilities should protect it from them, just as the R-77s probably wouldn't get a decent lock. The long range IR guided R-27TETs might be interesting as stealth aircraft like the B-2 have been detected using IR sensors.

Either way it will eventually come down to manouvering and guns and in that case my money is on the Su-35... faster, more weapons, more manouverable, longer flight range.

GarryB wrote:Very simply the Su-35 and F-22 should be immune to each others medium range AAMs, the Su-35 can carry rather more air to air weapons, is faster and has longer flight range.

It also has a range of optical and radar sensors for detecting enemy aircraft, including wing mounted L band radar AESA array antennas.

Even assuming they don't work there are plenty of long wave ground based sensors that would be working with the Flanker to detect the F-22 at long range.

As the Su-35 approaches the F-22 it will be fired upon with AMRAAMs, but its EW capabilities should protect it from them, just as the R-77s probably wouldn't get a decent lock. The long range IR guided R-27TETs might be interesting as stealth aircraft like the B-2 have been detected using IR sensors.

Either way it will eventually come down to manouvering and guns and in that case my money is on the Su-35... faster, more weapons, more manouverable, longer flight range.

Why F-22 should be immune to R-77-1 and R-37M ???

Not so much immune but resistant to Active radar homing from such a small radar antenna.

If the Su-35 can have jammer pods that jam AMRAAM then the F-22 should be able to manage the same or equivalent.

Besides the long range AAMs of the Su-35 will be used to take out all the inflight refuelling tanker aircraft the USAF will rely on to keep their stealth fighters operational in the field and also their AWACS and JSTARS collecting live intel in the field.

With these force multipliers eliminated NATO will not be in such a good position as it is used to.

Once they have perfected the IIR seeker on the new short range AAM then a small IIR sensor for long range missiles would be useful.... lock on after launch with a passive sensor means it can look for targets without giving its own position away to easily.... an IR target can then be scanned with the onboard high frequency radar and when a weak or non existent radar return is the result it can assume the target is stealth and worth attacking.... its IR signature can be analysed to ID it.... much the same way Brimstone works with MMW radar signals.

GarryB wrote:Not so much immune but resistant to Active radar homing from such a small radar antenna.

If the Su-35 can have jammer pods that jam AMRAAM then the F-22 should be able to manage the same or equivalent.

Besides the long range AAMs of the Su-35 will be used to take out all the inflight refuelling tanker aircraft the USAF will rely on to keep their stealth fighters operational in the field and also their AWACS and JSTARS collecting live intel in the field.

With these force multipliers eliminated NATO will not be in such a good position as it is used to.

Once they have perfected the IIR seeker on the new short range AAM then a small IIR sensor for long range missiles would be useful.... lock on after launch with a passive sensor means it can look for targets without giving its own position away to easily.... an IR target can then be scanned with the onboard high frequency radar and when a weak or non existent radar return is the result it can assume the target is stealth and worth attacking.... its IR signature can be analysed to ID it.... much the same way Brimstone works with MMW radar signals.

Resistant? F-22 curently has no equivalent of SAP-518 station. Usually there won't be more than 5 Sentries really, so if every Su-35 will carry like 2-3 R-37Ms in the squadrom, it should be enough to shoot down all AWACS, tankers and at least 1/4 of F-22s.

GarryB wrote:Besides the long range AAMs of the Su-35 will be used to take out all the inflight refuelling tanker aircraft the USAF will rely on to keep their stealth fighters operational in the field and also their AWACS and JSTARS collecting live intel in the field.

Apparently F -22 can detect and defeat the Su 35 at BVR

https://hushkit.net/2016/03/17/su-35-versus-typhoon-analysis-from-rusis-justin-bronk/

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:Besides the long range AAMs of the Su-35 will be used to take out all the inflight refuelling tanker aircraft the USAF will rely on to keep their stealth fighters operational in the field and also their AWACS and JSTARS collecting live intel in the field.

Apparently F -22 can detect and defeat the Su 35 at BVR

https://hushkit.net/2016/03/17/su-35-versus-typhoon-analysis-from-rusis-justin-bronk/

It's not a new info that it can detect a su-35 which still has a big rcs even with a frontal reduction.

Defeat is totally impossible to prove. Modern russian jammers are known to be very capable against AIM-120 and long range missiles are famous for being not that good in general.

In close fight, a Syrian Su-17 proved to be capable of defeating US last version of IR missiles with flares probably delivered at the soviet times... let alone Su-35 reduced infrared signature with modern flares.

BTW, this article is an exemple of total pro-us bullshit with 0 proof, 0 argument, 0 exemples ...

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:Besides the long range AAMs of the Su-35 will be used to take out all the inflight refuelling tanker aircraft the USAF will rely on to keep their stealth fighters operational in the field and also their AWACS and JSTARS collecting live intel in the field.

Apparently F -22 can detect and defeat the Su 35 at BVR

https://hushkit.net/2016/03/17/su-35-versus-typhoon-analysis-from-rusis-justin-bronk/

My ass, RUSI is a think tank, which works for the UK government. They will never admit, that westie-made stuff will ever lose. It is almost like asking Russian MoD "Are Russian fighter jets the best in the world?" The answer is more than predictible.

Isos wrote:

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:Besides the long range AAMs of the Su-35 will be used to take out all the inflight refuelling tanker aircraft the USAF will rely on to keep their stealth fighters operational in the field and also their AWACS and JSTARS collecting live intel in the field.

Apparently F -22 can detect and defeat the Su 35 at BVR

https://hushkit.net/2016/03/17/su-35-versus-typhoon-analysis-from-rusis-justin-bronk/

It's not a new info that it can detect a su-35 which still has a big rcs even with a frontal reduction.

Defeat is totally impossible to prove. Modern russian jammers are known to be very capable against AIM-120 and long range missiles are famous for being not that good in general.

In close fight, a Syrian Su-17 proved to be capable of defeating US last version of IR missiles with flares probably delivered at the soviet times... let alone Su-35 reduced infrared signature with modern flares.

BTW, this article is an exemple of total pro-us bullshit with 0 proof, 0 argument, 0 exemples ...

Wasn't it you telling me, that Su-35 would beat EF with RVV-BD rather easily?

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Resistant? F-22 curently has no equivalent of SAP-518 station. Usually there won't be more than 5 Sentries really, so if every Su-35 will carry like 2-3 R-37Ms in the squadrom, it should be enough to shoot down all AWACS, tankers and at least 1/4 of F-22s.

As the R-77 approaches the F-22 it could use its large AESA array to focus a lot of energy at the rather small seeker of the Russian missile, which might render it less than optimally effective.

Very few BVR missiles have a PK of more than 40%... especially against a modern capable opponent that knows they are under attack.

Of course that works both ways.... which leaves a good gun and good old fashioned manouverability... hense my money is on the Flankers.

Apparently F -22 can detect and defeat the Su 35 at BVR

Sorry, but that analysis just hurts my head... a high flying Typhoon is going to be killed at 400km range by an S-400.... a high flying Su-35 can use after burner and fly rather faster than the Typhoon when it needs to because it carrys lots of fuel internally.

Hard to maintain, temperamental, not as sophisticated... all these stereotypes being directed at the Flanker.... its human user interface and avionics are based on 5th gen systems fitted to the PAK FA, so the ability of the Su-35 pilot to operate his aircraft should not be in doubt.

It completely ignores the Flankers L band wing mounted radars specifically intended to detect stealth aircraft, so the bullcrap about the F-22 pilot seeing the Flanker and the Flanker not seeing the F-22 is just that... BS.

Amusing that they think they cannot comment on the Gripen because it is an unknown entity, but speculation about pretty much any other type is stereotype solid.

They didn't mention the L band AESA array the Su-35 has to detect stealth targets at extended range, or the fact that the Su-35 in Russian service will likely be operating with local air support, whereas the Typhoon or F-22 is more likely to be over someone elses back yard doing what it does.

Equally they never mention that the RVV-BD missile with the domestic designation of R-37M is intended for all new Russian fighters including PAK FA, Su-35, and MiG-35 as well as the MiG-31 is a 300km range AAM intended specifically to destroy JSTARs, AWACS, and inflight refuelling aircraft at extended ranges.

The Typhoon might supercruise at mach 1.2, but the Flanker can use after burner and fly faster if it needs to.

The amusing thing is that the Russians are not interested in all stealth, they are going to be making MiG-35s and Su-35s along side their Su-57s and will be operating a combination of both types... the difference is that they will be defending their own air space, whereas the F-22 and Typhoon will be used to create another Libya.

As the R-77 approaches the F-22 it could use its large AESA array to focus a lot of energy at the rather small seeker of the Russian missile, which might render it less than optimally effective.

Since the end of 2016, Su-35S is using R-77-1, not R-77, whereas yankees will deploy AIM-120D only in 2019. R-77-1 has a Ku-band seeker and F-22's radar is X-band, really and also I don't think that F-22's radar has the same output as SAP-518 does. Plus, R-77-1 has both passive and active seeker. Do not forget about R-37M as well.

... a high flying Typhoon is going to be killed at 400km range by an S-400.... wrote:

Currently S400 does not have 400km range missiles, though S300V4 does.

Weren't LBand AESA radars only useful for IFF, terrain mapping, and disruption satellite communication?

Since the end of 2016, Su-35S is using R-77-1, not R-77, whereas yankees will deploy AIM-120D only in 2019. R-77-1 has a Ku-band seeker and F-22's radar is X-band, really and also I don't think that F-22's radar has the same output as SAP-518 does. Plus, R-77-1 has both passive and active seeker. Do not forget about R-37M as well.

Fair enough, but the new missiles are still called MISS iles, not Hitiles...

With the quality of self defence systems on the new aircraft each is facing the chances are the missiles are more likely to fail than succeed.. which means it comes down to close in fighting and guns and I think the Flanker wins there.... as does the MiG-35 and the Su-57.

Weren't LBand AESA radars only useful for IFF, terrain mapping, and disruption satellite communication?

Terrain mapping? They are for detecting stealth objects at extended ranges, but they could also detect datalink traffic too.

They are not precise enough for tracking stealth objects but can be used to direct IRST and other sensors to look at the stealthy object and reveal its presence.

Ives wrote:
So, what do you guys think, is the situation really that bad for the Sukhoy or the vid is just another Pro-US BS ?

Don't take any care about a lost moronic 30-40 years old teenager's fantaisies. At this step no one in the world could assert a such thing. The war is not a simulation, a war is combat between men. Intelligence prevailed. Nearly all the simulations implemented failed. Since Alfred Von Shielifen until the last pentagon's planners during their occupation of Iraq. Nothing run, if none simulations made seriously by highly specialized pundits failed, what did U expect of a teeny ? A teeny that just want to sky rocket its youtube channel visitors number.

However there are several serious clues -scientific data obviously- indicating that the SU-35 would be at least equal, depending the skills of the pilot of course.

Apparently F -22 can detect and defeat the Su 35 at BVR

BVR! BVR! BVR! pffffffffffff.....
Contrary to what is swaggered, U can count BVR' success -since the 60's until now- with your fingers, if they really existed one day-existence far to be guaranteed, especially if U add conditions of a so called success - ....As those loudly claim their so-called success are Pentagon, Israel, in fact those who are promoting and producing and marketing them. If U love marketing U can believe them.

During the aerial war of the Vietnam, the gap between US air Force, and VPAF was really significant. The F-4 Phantom II, the F-105 , F-8 Crusader were supersonic, equipped with modern radar, and air-air missiles. US pilots were considered at that time among the best in the world, due to their training. Face of USAF, VPAF could barely deploy an handful of Mig-17 not supersonic, equipped with pitiable radar, and no air-air missiles availlable. The other great problem, for VPAF -and far to be the smallest- was its small number of pilots at the beginning of the conflict in 1965. At this time no one could give a little chance to VPAF. When RollingThunder started in early spring 1965, Pentagon planners with their hollywood simulations  expected North Vietnam will be at knees in few weeks -5 weeks if I recall-. Ho Chi Minh will beg for peace.
U know the next. US lost at least 4.000 aircraft, the Mig-17 downed at least 70 US aircraft including the most modern F-105, F-4 Phantom II, and F-8 Crusader. A gun was added to the F-4 Phantom II resulting tragic failure of US philosophy of combat. Finally US retreated of the Vietnam. And US beg this time for retreat, in their famous "Peace with honor".

Tell me about the gap between SU-35 and F-22 without Western medias usual soap ? The stealth technology does not work against modern army and country -like Russia, China, India-, the BVR even less, just maneuverability and dogfight. In this area pilots on SU-35 do have a small advantage than their US collegues, they could train more than US pilots in their F-22.


Finally Internet is full of idiocies including those incomming from western medias as they origin all from Lockheed. Then don't take credit to all.

Don't know exactly where to put this, but I found it interesting with references to many issues discussed here. Don't know the guy or what credibility he has:

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201808151067215661-f35-su35-expert-opinion/

Pearls from the interview:

“We should keep in mind that the Su-35S can see the F-35 all right and it has excellent flying characteristics too.”

“Why don’t the Americans want to hand these planes over to Turkey? I think one reason is that the F-35s’ arrival would create a unique situation where US planes and Russian missile defense systems find themselves as part of a single armed force. Then it could transpire that the stealth fighter is not as stealthy as is touted. The word could leak out for everyone to realize that the F-35 is really not such a big deal after all. This could lead to a financial scandal.”

Think I've heard this before...

Of course it can. Just depends on the range. I don't believe a second of the RCS of the F-22 or F-35. And if Russia has decided to update Irbis-E since its iteration using newer digital signal processors and what not, they could drastically increase performance of the radar system. Let us not forget Russia managed to increase Su-30SM's BARS-R radar to upwards of about 350km detection/track range, which is really good for a radar with only 7kw of power compared to Irbis-E's much more 20KW of power.

Then there are passive sensors too. Plus ground based radar assets can communicate and transmit data to aircraft.

Su-35S vs. F-22 Raptor: Russians avoid sharp turns

With Russian combat aircraft, the comparison of American aircraft is a mixed success. Then suddenly some Western experts find out that "Russians rule in the air", then other "experts" start to deny it. Where to find the truth, you ask? The desired result can be achieved if you remove the political background, when the desired is given as valid. As an object for cleaning up the "information garbage" I will choose an American aircraft F-22 Raptor and Russian Su-35S.

So, let's begin.

Alexei Leonkov, military expert of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland"

More:

https://zvezdaweekly.ru/news/t/20188101127-crziZ.html

dino00 wrote:Su-35S vs. F-22 Raptor: Russians avoid sharp turns

Alexei Leonkov, military expert of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland"

More:

https://zvezdaweekly.ru/news/t/20188101127-crziZ.html

Very good!

F-22 on thermal camera. Look how we see nothing. Such low IR signature. My god we need a telescope to see it. It hides not only behind clouds but also behind molecules of H2O.

Isos wrote:F-22 on thermal camera. Look how we see nothing. Such low IR signature. My god we need a telescope to see it. It hides not only behind clouds but also behind molecules of H2O.  

Yep, quite invisible!