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Sukhoi’s Su-35S - not your father’s Flanker
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Su-35S: News
Austin- Posts : 7617
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GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Interesting article Austin, thanks for posting.
Though the suggestion that the F-22 and the Su-35S are the only aircraft designed to fly at supersonic speeds as a normal part of their operational flight regime is a little inaccurate.
The Hustler bomber, the SR-71, the Mig-25, the Mig-31... the Concord and Tu-144.
I think he means to do so without afterburner on all the time and I think he emphasises it so much because the F-35 can't super cruise and he has a bee in his bonnet about the F-35.
Though the suggestion that the F-22 and the Su-35S are the only aircraft designed to fly at supersonic speeds as a normal part of their operational flight regime is a little inaccurate.
The Hustler bomber, the SR-71, the Mig-25, the Mig-31... the Concord and Tu-144.
I think he means to do so without afterburner on all the time and I think he emphasises it so much because the F-35 can't super cruise and he has a bee in his bonnet about the F-35.
Austin- Posts : 7617
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He forgot the Eurofighter that can supercruise without afterburner at M 1.3 with useful load.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20101011/160909205.htmlRussian Air Force to receive first Su-35 by yearend - Sukhoi
The Russian Defense Ministry will receive its first Su-35 fighter plane by the end of the year, Russia's Sukhoi Aircraft Design Bureau said on Monday.
The first modernized Su-35 was presented at the 2007 MAKS air show outside Moscow. The Russian Defense Ministry signed a deal with Sukhoi on the purchase of 48 modernized Su-35 jets in 2009.
Sukhoi is also holding talks with customers in South-East Asia, the Middle East and South America on Su-35 sales.
The Su-35 Flanker-E, a modification of the Su-27, is a heavy class, long-range, multi-role fighter, whose technical characteristics can be compared with those of fifth-generation jets.
MOSCOW, October 11 (RIA Novosti)
Well they aren't mucking around are they?
Austin- Posts : 7617
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The SuperFlanker Su-35 by Jon Lake (via AndyB )
http://ifile.it/na415mh/SU35.zip
http://ifile.it/na415mh/SU35.zip
Kysusha- Posts : 191
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The cost of waging war is the limiting factor in any future conflict. Simply, the cost of materiel is becoming prohibitive and unless a war can be waged and won in a very short time-frame, no country can stand a protected war.
The country that can produce cheap airframes and many of them, and load them with high-end electronics, will have the upper hand.
Same with tanks – look at Britain – Challenger II, arguably the best tank in the world, but so expensive they can’t continue to produce it or maintain up-keep of existing. Admittedly, it has withstood countless hits in Iraq, mostly from low grade ordinance – [but has with-stood hits from Milan]. A country that spent some time and effort in developing a round to defeat the Challenger and then put that out in many lesser value tanks – would simply win [Rather like the T34 did to Germany].
The race for high end gear is in it’s self, self defeating. You will always have to put a man on the ground to hold the ground. It’s an old maxim, but a true one.
The country that can produce cheap airframes and many of them, and load them with high-end electronics, will have the upper hand.
Same with tanks – look at Britain – Challenger II, arguably the best tank in the world, but so expensive they can’t continue to produce it or maintain up-keep of existing. Admittedly, it has withstood countless hits in Iraq, mostly from low grade ordinance – [but has with-stood hits from Milan]. A country that spent some time and effort in developing a round to defeat the Challenger and then put that out in many lesser value tanks – would simply win [Rather like the T34 did to Germany].
The race for high end gear is in it’s self, self defeating. You will always have to put a man on the ground to hold the ground. It’s an old maxim, but a true one.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Indeed there will be a lot more air forces around the world able to afford an Su-35S than a T-50. For many roles the Su-35S would be better from the standpoint that it can carry more weapons and probably also a greater variety of weapons too.
In a world where good enough is the bests greatest enemy, often good enough is rather more successful.
In a world where good enough is the bests greatest enemy, often good enough is rather more successful.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Have read elsewhere on the Internet that the USAF has plans for the F-15 that are fairly similar to Russian plans for the Su-35.
They want to use the larger radar aperture and the much larger number of AAMs against stealth aircraft that normally have a more restricted nose size and carrying capacity for weapons being restricted by internal carriage requirements.
Of course they have not declared anything about wing leading edge long band radar as will be fitted to the Su-35 and the T-50... but it is an interesting admission that numbers of aircraft and missiles is useful too.
They want to use the larger radar aperture and the much larger number of AAMs against stealth aircraft that normally have a more restricted nose size and carrying capacity for weapons being restricted by internal carriage requirements.
Of course they have not declared anything about wing leading edge long band radar as will be fitted to the Su-35 and the T-50... but it is an interesting admission that numbers of aircraft and missiles is useful too.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Any news, when will be the first Su-35 for air force build? It was said, that air force will receive the first Su-35S to the end of 2010. Now we are in 2011.
IronsightSniper- Posts : 414
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I did read something about the First Production Su-35 off of another forum the other day, I'll find that piece later.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Sukhoi have this on their website:
Nothing newer about the Su-35... but some nice videos to download.
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/news/company/
for the news, click the gallery link to get to the vids and pics.
Sukhoi completed general units’ assembly of the first production Su-35S
Moscow, October 11. Sukhoi Company completed general units’ assembly of the first production Su-35S fighter. The state contract with the Russian Defense Ministry on the delivery of 48 multifunctional super maneuverable Su-35 fighter jets was signed at the 2009 MAKS air show. The works on the contract started in autumn 2009 at the KnAAPO facility of the Sukhoi holding in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
At the present time the first production Su-35S is at the final assembly shop of the KnAAPO. The preparations are underway for its flight testing. The first production Su-35S will be delivered to the Russian Ministry of Defense by the end of the year.
Nothing newer about the Su-35... but some nice videos to download.
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/news/company/
for the news, click the gallery link to get to the vids and pics.
ahmedfire- Posts : 2366
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can russians used L band radar instead of irbis E on sukhoi as it is effective against vlo designs ??
Austin- Posts : 7617
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ahmedfire wrote:can russians used L band radar instead of irbis E on sukhoi as it is effective against vlo designs ??
Most certainly L Band Radar are better to detect LO targets compared to X band Irbis-E , they can use L band on wings slats to scan and possibly track LO targets or use it just as EW against LO targets but the aperture is small and power output is low of those L band slats hence limited in range and scan angles
Irbis-E on the other hand has tremendous power output and scan angles to detect long range targets
medo- Posts : 4343
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can russians used L band radar instead of irbis E on sukhoi as it is effective against vlo designs ??
Su-35 have X band and L band radars and IRST. I'm sure in domestic variant computers and software enable use of any of those three systems independently as well as using all three together to get a clearer picture of air space comparing pictures from all three sources. It also have data link to get picture from other sources like AWACS, groung radars, etc. After all, its ESM equipment with RWR, IRWR, etc could also detect and locate any emissions from enemy plane. So, Su-35 is not that weak against VLO planes.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Most radars are used more for listening than transmitting these days.
A formation of 4 or 8 Su-35s will likely have one aircraft transmitting occasionally to search for targets and passing information to other aircraft in the flight and to HQ.
A widely spread flight of 8 aircraft could use passive L band sensors to determine the position and range of an emitting target simply though triangulation... the way a submarine can find noisy propellers without having to ping and give its own position away.
A formation of 4 or 8 Su-35s will likely have one aircraft transmitting occasionally to search for targets and passing information to other aircraft in the flight and to HQ.
A widely spread flight of 8 aircraft could use passive L band sensors to determine the position and range of an emitting target simply though triangulation... the way a submarine can find noisy propellers without having to ping and give its own position away.
ahmedfire- Posts : 2366
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but i think L band on flankers still has no great range against lo aircrafts,,
the problem that great l band ranges require aphysically big antenna and abig nose like chineses awacs !
dr/carlo said that russians improving liquied cooling systems so it will help to increase the power and range !
the problem that great l band ranges require aphysically big antenna and abig nose like chineses awacs !
dr/carlo said that russians improving liquied cooling systems so it will help to increase the power and range !
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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but i think L band on flankers still has no great range against lo aircrafts,,
I think you are missing the point... in a netcentric environment with a flight of 4 aircraft with L band AESA radars a direct datalink connection between the aircraft could create a virtual antenna hundreds or thousands of metres across.
Equally an AMRAAM fired requires updates when fired at long range to make sure the target doesn't stray from the missiles engagement box... L band radars will detect datalink signals between aircraft and to missiles in flight.
Wing mounted radars don't render stealth useless... otherwise what would the point of the T-50 be?
Wing mounted radar are just another tool that can add information to an overall picture... just like the front and side looking AESA X band radars, and the IRST... and in one video I have seen of the T-50 the rear brake parachute comes out of a raised portion that is not at the rear tip of the central tail extension... so a tail mounted radar is very possible... an AESA that can be used for jamming would be very useful there.
Further info about the engine for the Su-35:
...a less powerful variant of the AL-41F1 – the
AL-41F1S or “Item 117S” – will be put on the Su-35S fighter. The AL-41F1S has
an older digital control system and a little less thrust.
ahmedfire- Posts : 2366
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think you are missing the point... in a netcentric environment with a flight of 4 aircraft with L band AESA radars a direct datalink connection between the aircraft could create a virtual antenna hundreds or thousands of metres across.
got it ,but it is still out of range of AMRAAM...
Equally an AMRAAM fired requires updates when fired at long range to make sure the target doesn't stray from the missiles engagement box... L band radars will detect datalink signals between aircraft and to missiles in flight.
you mean blinding the missile ?
nice photo
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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got it ,but it is still out of range of AMRAAM...
From the front, probably, but how is the F-35 going to keep its stealthy nose pointing at every Flanker in the sky at once?
Clearly it can't, so while it is facing one Flanker, it is presenting its less stealthy side or rear to another Flanker that can detect it, plot its position in 3D space and datalink the information back to HQ and other Flankers in the area... including the Flanker the F-35s nose is pointed at.
you mean blinding the missile ?
No. The seeker of the AMRAAM is an X band seeker and will not even detect L band AESA transmissions.
The F-35 will be presenting its lowest RCS aspect to the target flanker and will try to fire at max range to avoid detection... a max range launch gives the target the best chance of evading the missile and increases the distance the target can move till the missile gets to an intercept position so as long as the Flanker changes direction randomly at regular intervals the F-35 will need to send course corrections to its missile... which is in the direction of the target so the Flanker should detect the emissions... realise it is under attack and the direction of the attack... turning and climbing should easily evade the incoming missile and the game begins.
nice photo
She is a nice bird. I like seeing Su-35 prototypes as they are the only Russian aircraft that commonly carry R-77s ATM.
Edit: oops, of course the Mig-29SMTs that didn't go to Algeria can use R-77s too, and of course the few Mig-31s, and Su-27s that have been upgraded can as well.
AbsoluteZero- Posts : 82
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- Post n°45
Sukhoi began flight tests of the first batch of Su-35s
AbsoluteZero Tue May 03, 2011 11:38 am
MOSCOW, May 3. (АРМС-ТАСС). (ARMS-TASS). Компания "Сухой" приступила к летным испытаниям первого серийного многофункционального истребителя Су-35С. Sukhoi has started flight tests of the first serial multipurpose fighter Su-35s. Как сообщили АРМС-ТАСС в пресс-службе "Сухого", испытания проводились на аэродроме Комсомольского-на-Амуре авиационного производственного объединения им. As reported by ARMS-TASS in the press service of Sukhoi, tests were conducted at the aerodrome of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association. Ю.А.Гагарина (КнААПО). Yuri Gagarin (KnAAPO).
В течение полутора часов отрабатывались различные режимы силовой установки и комплексной системы управления истребителя. Within a half hours were worked out different modes of propulsion system and integrated control system of a fighter. Проверялись характеристики его устойчивости и управляемости. Test the performance of its stability and controllability. Замечаний к работе двигателей, систем и оборудования не было, сообщил источник. Remarks on the operation of engines, systems and equipment were not, the source said.
В ходе летных испытаний пилотировал первый серийный Су-35С заслуженный летчик-испытатель РФ Сергей Богдан. During the flight test was flown first production Su-35s distinguished test pilot Sergei Bogdan. Именно он 19 февраля 2009 г. поднял в воздух первый летный образец Су-35. It was he who on Feb. 19, 2009 flew the first flight model of the Su-35. После завершения заводских летных испытаний машина будет передана министерству обороны России. After completion of factory tests the machine will be transferred to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.
К настоящему времени компания "Сухой" успешно завершила предварительные испытания Су-35/Су-35С, в ходе которых были полностью подтверждены установленные техническим заданием основные характеристики комплекса бортового оборудования, полностью проверены характеристики устойчивости и управляемости, характеристики силовой установки, работа навигационной системы. So far, Sukhoi has successfully completed preliminary tests Su-35/Su-35S, during which were fully confirmed by the established technical requirements of the main characteristics of the onboard equipment, fully tested stability and controllability characteristics, characteristics of the power plant, the navigation system. В 2011 г. летные испытания истребителя существенно интенсифицируются благодаря подключению к ним дополнительных самолетов. In 2011, flight tests fighter significantly intensified by connecting them to the additional aircraft.
Су-35/Су-35С предъявлен к государственным совместным испытания (ГСИ). Su-35/Su-35S presented for joint public-test (ICG). Первым этапом в рамках ГСИ станет получение предварительного заключения заказчика - ВВС России - о соответствии самолета основным требованиям с целью его поставки в строевые части военно-воздушных сил. The first step in the framework of the ICG will receive custody of the customer - the Russian Air Force - the aircraft under the basic requirements in order to its delivery at the front of the Air Force.
Су-35 - глубоко модернизированный сверхманевренный многофункциональный истребитель поколения "4++". Su-35 - is deeply modernized maneuverable multipurpose fighter of the "4 + +". В нем использованы технологии 5-го поколения, обеспечивающие превосходство над истребителями аналогичного класса. It uses the technology of the 5-th generation, ensuring the superiority fighter aircraft in its class. Отличительными особенностями самолета являются новый комплекс авионики на основе цифровой информационно-управляющей системы, интегрирующей системы бортового оборудования, новая радиолокационная станция (РЛС) с фазированной антенной решеткой с большой дальностью обнаружения воздушных целей с увеличенным числом одновременно сопровождаемых и обстреливаемых целей (сопровождение 30 и атака 8 воздушных целей, а также сопровождение 4 и атака 2 наземных целей), новые двигатели с увеличенной тягой и поворотным вектором тяги. Distinctive features of the aircraft are new avionics based on digital information management system that integrates systems avionics, a new radar station (radar) with a phased array with long-range detection of air targets with an increased number of simultaneously tracked and engaged targets (support 30 and the attack in August air targets, as well as support for 4 and 2 attack ground targets), the new engines with increased thrust and turning thrust vector.
Су-35 отличается широкой номенклатурой вооружения большой, средней и малой дальности. Su-35 has the broad nomenclature of weaponry large, medium and short range. Способен нести управляемые авиационные средства поражения (АСП) анти-РЛС, анти-корабль, общего назначения, корректируемые авиабомбы (КАБ), а также неуправляемее АСП. Able to carry guided air attack (TSA), anti-radar, anti-ship, general purpose, guided aerial bombs (KAB), as well as the unmanaged ASP. Радиолокационная заметность истребителя по сравнению с самолетами 4-го поколения уменьшена в несколько раз благодаря электропроводящему покрытию фонаря кабины, нанесению радиопоглощающих покрытий и уменьшенному количеству выступающих датчиков. Radar visibility fighter planes compared with the 4 th generation is reduced by several times due to an electrically covering canopy, deposition of radio-absorbing coating and a reduced number of speakers sensors.
Ресурс самолета - 6 тыс. летных часов, срок службы - 30 лет эксплуатации, назначенный ресурс двигателей с управляемым соплом - 4 тыс. ч. Life of the aircraft - 6 thousand flight hours, service life - 30 years of operation, the designated life of the engine with controlled nozzle - 4 thousand hours
ARMS TASS
Im wondering how this Su-35"S" is any different from the two previous Su-35BM that was tested last year. Which of them is really the final production model?
medo- Posts : 4343
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I wonder how many planes will be in the first batch. Also are they pre-serial or serial planes.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Sukhoi has started flight tests of the first serial multipurpose fighter Su-35s
There is your answer Medo... these are the first serial production Su-35s.
BTW for those who... like me have a bit of trouble picking out the English translation:
<blockquote>MOSCOW, May 3. (ARMS-TASS). Sukhoi has started flight tests of the first serial multipurpose fighter Su-35s.
As reported by ARMS-TASS in the press service of Sukhoi, tests were conducted at the aerodrome of Komsomolsk-n-Amur Aircraft Production Association. Yuri Gagarin (KnAAPO).
Within a half hours were worked out different modes of propulsion system and integrated control system of a fighter. Test the performance of its stability and controllability. Remarks on the operation of engines, systems and equipment were not, the source said.
During the flight test was flown first production Su-35s distinguished test pilot Sergei Bogdan. It was he who on Feb. 19,
2009 flew the first flight model of the Su-35. After completion of factory tests the machine will be transferred to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.
So far, Sukhoi has successfully completed preliminary tests Su-35/Su-35S, during which were fully confirmed by the stablished technical requirements of the main characteristics of the onboard equipment, fully tested stability and controllability characteristics, characteristics of the power plant, the navigation system. In 2011, flight tests fighter significantly intensified by connecting them to the additional aircraft.
Su-35/Su-35S presented for joint public-test (ICG). The first step in the framework of the ICG will receive custody of the customer - the Russian Air Force - the aircraft under the basic requirements in order to its delivery at the front of the Air Force.
Su-35 - is deeply modernized maneuverable multipurpose fighter of the "4 + +". It uses the technology of the 5-th generation, ensuring the superiority fighter aircraft in its class.
Distinctive features of the aircraft are new avionics based on digital information management system that integrates
systems avionics, a new radar station (radar) with a phased array with long-range detection of air targets with an increased number of simultaneously tracked and engaged targets (support 30 and the attack in August air targets, as well as support for 4 and 2 attack ground targets), the new engines with increased thrust and turning thrust vector.
Su-35 has the broad nomenclature of weaponry large, medium and short range. Able to carry guided air attack (TSA), anti-radar, anti-ship, general purpose, guided aerial bombs (KAB), as well as the unmanaged ASP.
Radar visibility fighter planes compared with the 4 th generation is reduced by several times due to an electrically covering canopy, deposition of radio-absorbing coating and a reduced number of speakers sensors.
Life of the aircraft -
6 thousand flight hours, service life - 30 years of operation, the designated life of the engine with controlled nozzle - 4 thousand hours </blockquote>
Thanks for posting this AbsoluteZero.
It mentions the production of extra airframes speeded up testing in 2011 so I would guess they have likely produced a round figure of airframes... 4,6,8 as a first batch of 48.
Of course this aircraft is fairly fundamentally different from the other current flankers in service so these aircraft will likely go straight to a training and testing unit that will develop a new flight manual for this aircraft and a maintainence and support manual for support crews. They will also likely develop a new tactics and training manual as well to take advantage of the new weapons and sensors on the aircraft making new tactics possible.
These planes wont see normal front line service for 2-3 years.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Im wondering how this Su-35"S" is any different from the two previous
Su-35BM that was tested last year. Which of them is really the final
production model?
The Su-35BM is the pre-production prototype... a test bed to put all the bits together in a real plane and see if they all work together. It is generally put together with available parts but not in a production line... it is hand made.
The Su-35S is the serial production aircraft, but by the article above it seems the S models were used to accelerate systems testing. There are lots of things that need to be checked like whether the new radar in the new nose configuration with the new IRST next to it is properly cooled and doesn't overheat the stuff next to it and cause problems. Stuff like that.
This article talks about the first serial production batch of Su-35S fighters that have been made in a production line rather than made as a single aircraft prototype. They have been tested and are being sent to the Russian Air Force who will send them to a testing and evaluation centre to draw up the various operations manuals which will be printed and distributed to the units when they get the new planes.
Serial production aircraft are made in a way that they can be put together in a factory production line. Changes will be made to the prototype design to make them easier to put together on a factory line so the serial aircraft will be different to the prototype so even if the prototype was fully flight tested, the serial production models still need flight testing to make sure changes made to make them easier and cheaper to make on a production line haven't effected performance and characteristics.
For instance on the prototype electronics might be put where it will fit for the moment, in the production model they might shift a few things around to make it easier to build and easier to maintain. Things might be shifted or access panels might be enlarged to make certain things easier to get at for example which might have nothing to do with how easy it is to make and put together. Or it might be found that two access panels close together can be combined into one which makes it quicker and easier to make and reduces the number of edges/panels/screws etc.
medo- Posts : 4343
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First serial Su-35.
[quote]There is your answer Medo... these are the first serial production Su-35s.
I know they wrote serial production. The only think which bother me is, that there was no pre-serial batch of Su-35, or I missed them. Usually they first build few pre-serial examples to see if any modifications are needed before serial production. All other planes and helicopters have pre-serial batch, so I don't know why Su-35 would be a different example. Anyway, it is good, that air force will finally get new serial Su-35, which will increase their air defense capabilities. I hope this will give wings also to PAK FA.
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I would assume that because the Flanker airframe is pretty tried and trusted and there were at least two Su-35BM prototypes plus I saw at least one Su-30M used to test the new radar system for the Su-35 that perhaps the pre serial production stage could be skipped.