Su-35S: News

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-bear-roars-the-sky-beware-the-deadly-su-35-11799

Hahahaha.... that article was interesting... its main flaw is that they only appear to have spoken to US pilots to comment on their enemeies planes.

I especially loved this bit...

But it’s not a Raptor and will be hamstrung by the two key elements of fifth-gen war…stealth, and broad spectrum sensor fusion,” said

The Su-35 lacks broad spectrum sensor fusion?

It has an X band radar in its nose that is huge, it has an IRST sensing long, medium, and short wave IR, and it has wing mounted L band radar AESA antenna... the Raptor has an X band radar in its nose... who covers the wider spectrum I ask...

their complaint is that the Su-35 is not a 5th gen stealth fighter... WTF do they think the PAK FA is?

Why make the Su-35 AND the PAK FA if they were the same thing?

The Su-35 has lots of features a 5th gen stealth fighter can't have like 12 external weapons pylons and active jammers.

George1 wrote:
done

Thx George, and again Sorry for that.
Nevertheless, I need your help about my following questions that I will ask you all.

GarryB wrote:Hahahaha.... that article was interesting... its main flaw is that they only appear to have spoken to US pilots to comment on their enemeies planes.

Firstable, Garry do not forget this website named US nationalinterest.org
Hence what do you expect from a such site ? We are all here, because we are fedding up with western propaganda. However, there are things that could be interresting as these sentences :

“I think even an AESA [active electronically scanned array-radar equipped F-15C] Eagle and [Boeing F/A-18E/F] Super Hornet would both have their hands full.”

and

The Su's ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35,” the Air Force official said.

“Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform on paper,” said one highly experienced F-22 pilot....

“Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform on paper,” said one highly experienced F-22 pilot. “It's considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft. It possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.”

The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

And finally and maybe the most important thing in this article is in this following sentence

But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem....“We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven't been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” said another senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”

In fact they admitted that their weaponneries will have hard times with SU-35. It is not only the journalists, but the soldiers who are in charge in dealing with SU-35.
In fact across these sentences, they mean that their weaponneries are not effective. They even doubt. If even the F-22 and its AIM-120 are useless against SU-35. What does it stay ? The US' AESA radar could be useless  against the SU-35. They acknowaledged that Russia is now ahead against US regarding air battle, especially du to Electronic Attack. They said these statements because they know exactly what it worth the F-22. Do not forget that in the previous exercises between US air fleet and indian Sukhoi, US managed to not prensent their F-22. Why ? Let's imagine a few seconds what would be the world's reaction if he learn that even the F-22 is beaten by the SU-30 MKI ? Worst than a september 11, 2001.
I've just learned the interrests between AESA radar, and mechanichal scanning radar. Indeed, the AESA radar would be usefull, but, but, what's happenned if your missiles are useless ? U will have to launch at least 10 in the hope to reach one target. But what would be the result if you are opposed against Mig-33-35, and SU-30-33-34-35 ?
My question to you is :
Russians developped two of the best fighters in the world, they equiped one -Mig 35 - with AESA, the second -SU 35- with PESA, as the SU 35 seems to be the heaviest why didn't they equped with an AESA too ? The Mig-35 Zhuk EA seems is able to detect target at distance 200 km.
The SU-35's PESA is able to detect target more than 360 km. Have the Russian not to take confidence to AESA's technology ? Is AESA technology really mature ?
It is noteworthy to see, in this article the F-22's pilot seems to have no confidence -or he doubts- in the US' AESA radar abilities.

GarryB wrote:

The Su-35 lacks broad spectrum sensor fusion?

It has an X band radar in its nose that is huge, it has an IRST sensing long, medium, and short wave IR, and it has wing mounted L band radar AESA antenna... the Raptor has an X band radar in its nose... who covers the wider spectrum I ask...

their complaint is that the Su-35 is not a 5th gen stealth fighter... WTF do they think the PAK FA is?

First could you tell us how much the range of the SU-35's IRST ? Untill now I did not find any reliable sources.
Secondly, the 5 Gen. fighter is only a marketing brand. For a long time ago, the Mig-35 is largelly match to the F-22 or F-18, if not the F-35 -if he is operationnal one day   -.

GarryB wrote:
Why make the Su-35 AND the PAK FA if they were the same thing?

The Su-35 has lots of features a 5th gen stealth fighter can't have like 12 external weapons pylons and active jammers.

I think Russia's policy is to bet on two horses, SU-35 really superiority fighter will be the backbone -beside Mig-31, and Mig-35- , highly manoeuvrable, the second -Russi foresees to build up at least 50 around 2020- is to complete the other fighter.
Let"s wait and see.

Distance for Su-35 IRST, OLS-35, is roughly 90km-100km. This is something even F-22 does not have.

In ideal conditions.

In most scenarios range would not approach that, especially on approach vectors.

TR1 wrote:In ideal conditions.

In most scenarios range would not approach that, especially on approach vectors.

Well, yes, perfect weather and what not, I would imagine it would halve in not to ideal conditions. Still, is quite the system especially if Radar has trouble tracking something that is VLO.

Not just half- the range from approach vectors is listed as up to 35km max.

https://defenseissues.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/qrkpwi.jpg

TR1 wrote:Not just half- the range from approach vectors is listed as up to 35km max.

https://defenseissues.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/qrkpwi.jpg

Thanks for those OLS-35 informations. Of course those distances are measured in test conditions, where temperature of measures are 18°C for strict measures, but in Arctic or in cold Russian winter nights, you could expect even longer distances as environment temperature will be far colder than in testing conditions.

What is more interesting is, that OLS-35 is no more only IRST with IR sensor and laser range finder, but whole EO complex with IR sensor, TV, laser range finder and laser target marker. Considering the statement, OLS-35 can give TV + IR video, we could assume, it have FLIR or TI camera inside and could work as ground attack targeting pod for use with laser guided missiles as for bombs it doesn't have enough down looking elevation. Su-35 could do night ground attacks with PGMs without using of 1 pylon for targeting pod.

In fact they admitted that their weaponneries will have hard times with SU-35. It is not only the journalists, but the soldiers who are in charge in dealing with SU-35.

Yeah, but they retain the delusion of superior training to pull them through... it seems they forget the lessons the Indians taught them...

[quote]I've just learned the interrests between AESA radar, and mechanichal scanning radar. Indeed, the AESA radar would be usefull, but, but, what's happenned if your missiles are useless ? U will have to launch at least 10 in the hope to reach one target. But what would be the result if you are opposed against Mig-33-35, and SU-30-33-34-35 ?[quote]

AESAs have thousands of transmit receive modules... when they are a hundred dollars each that makes the radar a million dollars worth of hardware... mass production over time reduces costs to a few dollars each so eventually the Su-35 will have AESA... it already has a PESA which has all the benefits of an electronically scanned radar in terms of discrete tracking etc.

the real point is that in combat between an F-22 and an Su-35 is 6 AAMs vs 14.

If your missiles are not effective it comes down to guns and manouver capability and the F-22 was a sniper in a gillie suit, not a hand to hand combat specialist.

Russians developped two of the best fighters in the world, they equiped one -Mig 35 - with AESA, the second -SU 35- with PESA, as the SU 35 seems to be the heaviest why didn't they equped with an AESA too ? The Mig-35 Zhuk EA seems is able to detect target at distance 200 km.

They are actually developing 6 aircraft... Su-35, PAK FA, MiG-35, MiG-31, and MiG-41.

The last two are interceptors likely for the VKKO more than the VVS.

Each design bureau has a relationship with specific companies, so Sukhoi uses company X's engines and Company Y's radars.

it just so happens that the company that MiG works with made PESA radars in the early 1980s (Zaslon in the MiG-31) and is currently almost ready to deploy an AESA.

The company Sukhoi works with has BARS which has many of the advanced features of an AESA but is like a hybrid between a PESA and an AESA... some of the advantages of an AESA without the cost.

The PAK FA will have an AESA and in time when the production cost comes down the Su-35 and other Flankers will get the same... no hurry... the current radar is excellent already.

Contrary to popular belief a very good PESA can be better than a raw new AESA in some areas of performance but mainly in cost.... for many applications the extra cost of AESA just isn't worth it.

Over time with production of millions of modules the price goes down and performance goes up and it becomes worth the upgrade.

It is noteworthy to see, in this article the F-22's pilot seems to have no confidence -or he doubts- in the US' AESA radar abilities.

AESA is a bit like stealth... it can make a real difference in some situations, but in other situations it is more expensive than alternative solutions and doesn't necessary do a better job.

That is why the Russians are not going for an all stealth fleet... just like they don't have an all nuke propelled sub fleet.

First could you tell us how much the range of the SU-35's IRST ? Untill now I did not find any reliable sources.

One of the advantages of sensor fusion is the ability to combine the performance of different sensors... every sensor has an advantage and a disadvantage and sensor fusion maximises the advantages while minimising the disadvantages.

In other words, you have a big X band radar, plus an L band radar, plus an IRST. Any high flying stealth target will be optimised to hide from an X band radar, so to detect it you need extreme power, but an IRST against a sky background should have no problem detecting a supercruising stealth aircraft at extended range because skin heating from flying fast should make it easy to detect at extended ranges.

Equally most radar have problems tracking receeding targets so a target that dives and turns and tries to run away could break lock because the lock on range for a receeding target is much shorter than for a closing target. Again the IRST becomes useful because a rapidly receeding target is pointing its jet engines directly at you so while it is a poor target for radar it is an excellent target for IR.

for the pilot he wont know if the radar or IRST is tracking the target... he just enjoys a good solid lock of the target.

I have seen some data showing locks for IRST can exceed radar lock range for older model aircraft, but it depends on the target. A super cruising target has hot skin because of friction, while a target in AB will also be easily spotted. Otherwise a receeding target presenting its engine exhausts will also be able to be detected at longer ranges.

Information I have on the MiG-35 suggests lock on with IRST at 50-60km normally and up to 90km for extreme emitters like fighters in full AB or supercruising...

The IRST of the MiG-31 can reportedly detect an SR-71 at more than 120km, but of course it is flying fast and high so no background interference.

I think Russia's policy is to bet on two horses, SU-35 really superiority fighter will be the backbone -beside Mig-31, and Mig-35- , highly manoeuvrable, the second -Russi foresees to build up at least 50 around 2020- is to complete the other fighter.
Let"s wait and see.

Stealth is useful but a compromise, so it makes sense to have more than one fighter type... just as with the Su-27/MiG-29 hi low mix, today there is room for a few different types with different capabilities.

Not just half- the range from approach vectors is listed as up to 35km max.

Actually detection of a head on F-22 supercruising would be closer to 90km because of surface heating.

rear hemisphere tracking is more important as a retreating stealth target is actually harder to get a lock on than a closing stealth target...

And of course that chart is for export systems....

George1 wrote:Russian Army to Receive Sukhoi Su-35S Fighter Jet in 2015

I thought it was already in service

There are two different events regarding new fighters. One is, when fighters come to the first combat unit and the second is, when this first combat unit become fully operational and combat ready. In the mean time the unit is in training status, so not fully operational. I think this mean, that the first Su-35 regiment will become in 2015 fully operational.

http://vpk.name/news/126152_Sushka_s_importnoi_nachinkoi.html

Самолет СУ-35С поступит в войска с иностранными комплектующими

Многоцелевой истребитель Су-35С, который до конца года велел принять на вооружение ВВС министр обороны России Сергей Шойгу, пойдет в войска с иностранными комплектующими. Программа импортозамещения для этой машины не разработана и не утверждена, а на сколько машин хватит закупленных приборов и устройств, неизвестно.

О том, что Су-35С пойдет в войска с импортными комплектующими, «Газете.Ru» рассказал источник в Военно-промышленной комиссии при правительстве России.

«За рубежом, в том числе и на Украине, выпускают отдельные узлы и агрегаты. Там вся бортовая электроника построена на зарубежной элементной базе. А учитывая, что это полностью электронный самолет, это серьезная проблема.

У нас таких компонентов нет и не предвидится. Что с этим делать, пока не решено, первые самолеты пойдут на том, что есть, то есть на иностранных элементах, а дальше будем думать», — рассказал собеседник «Газеты.Ru».

This article is interesting. It claim, that there are many foreign components in Su-35, seems specially in electronics. I was thinking, that Su-35 electronics are based on domestic Elbrus type chips, like air defense complexes are. I don't think it is too hard to replace foreign chips with domestic ones. What are other components, which could not be produced in Russia? I think there is nothing in Su-35, what Russian industry could not produce.

Well, maybe they should hold back purchase of Su-35 then, let KNaapo deal with this issue then.  In article it states that if sales of the components run out, then it thats it...  If this is the case, do not give money to KNaapo until they either do come up with a replacement (either purchase from China or elsewhere) or outright come up with their own alternative components.  Electronics?  They make their own and they know this, I believe someone is getting paid quite well to use foreign components.  There really isn't much of a difference between these controllers/processors from one another in their tasks.  At this point, I hope they don't purchase Su-35 until Knaapo solves this issue or creates an alternative jet that uses none foreign components.  It is stated the components cannot be replaced, well, probably because they are designed around these components which is understandable.  But if they cannot guarantee the safety of the supply of the parts, then the MoD should not guarantee any sales.

But from comments, people seem to be questioning the source, because it is too vague. I remember reading that Su-35S is 95% Russian and the 5% could be various electronic components that are imported. And that 5% could very well be a problem for Russia. Which in this case, they will really need to push for import substitution. Really, Mikron, Module, Elvees, MCST, etc all make IC and all of them can be used. From my understanding, various processors for controllers are basic MIPS chips, which are easily replaceable and Russia makes them. So I have a feeling whomever is mentioning this is someone trying to cause issues. Or is just Gazeta trying to be a tabloid.

sepheronx wrote:Well, maybe they should hold back purchase of Su-35 then, let KNaapo deal with this issue then.  In article it states that if sales of the components run out, then it thats it...  If this is the case, do not give money to KNaapo until they either do come up with a replacement (either purchase from China or elsewhere) or outright come up with their own alternative components.  Electronics?  They make their own and they know this, I believe someone is getting paid quite well to use foreign components.  There really isn't much of a difference between these controllers/processors from one another in their tasks.  At this point, I hope they don't purchase Su-35 until Knaapo solves this issue or creates an alternative jet that uses none foreign components.  It is stated the components cannot be replaced, well, probably because they are designed around these components which is understandable.  But if they cannot guarantee the safety of the supply of the parts, then the MoD should not guarantee any sales.

But from comments, people seem to be questioning the source, because it is too vague.  I remember reading that Su-35S is 95% Russian and the 5% could be various electronic components that are imported.  And that 5% could very well be a problem for Russia.  Which in this case, they will really need to push for import substitution.  Really, Mikron, Module, Elvees, MCST, etc all make IC and all of them can be used.  From my understanding, various processors for controllers are basic MIPS chips, which are easily replaceable and Russia makes them.  So I have a feeling whomever is mentioning this is someone trying to cause issues.  Or is just Gazeta trying to be a tabloid.

I agree with you, that maybe Russian MIC or KNAAPO use Rogozin here and with disinformations create a fog, that no one could be sure how effective sanctions are. Su-35S have large level of communality with PAK FA and that components for them are domestic. Creating a fog on Su-35S production, because of foreign components, could also mean that RuAF could not receive PAK FA because of the same problem. No one say that there is any problem with Su-30SM, which actually have some foreign (Indian) components in it.

My understanding is the Su-35 Irbis-E uses a chip made in Taiwan but designed in west, while N-036 will be using a chip similar to Elbrus 2C+ as the desogn requirements for the main processor used in PAKFA was to be russian made, with both dsp cores and a risc core. Elbrus2c+ seems to match that. I imagine that it can also be integrated for all electronic subsystems too but full rate production isnt set yet apparently. Now whp is tp say Irbis E cannot use the Elbrus 2C+? I imagine it could but there would need to be some major rework done on the electronic side of things to use the system. If PAK FA shared all tech side of things with Su-35, it would be ready for purchase already.

Like Su-34 and PAK FA, Su-35 is also made for RuAF, not for export, so I personally doubt, it have many imported elements, specially in electronics. Domestic chips don't have hiden ports, that enemy could take control over it. Irbis-E (export) could have foreign chips, but not domestic and this is the most important difference between export and domestic version and in their capabilities.

After fall of Serdukov, Russian complexes are made exclusively on domestic chips and elements. I think they use Rogozin here, where true information is hiden in a pocket of disinformations, multiplied with wild imagination of journalists, who don't have a clue about things they are writing about and made such a BS, that everyone simply dismiss it as BS.

Will the SU-35's radar be N036 Byelka ? Did the Irbis-E just a transition ? SU-35 will be the backbone of russian air force, I think more than any aircraft, including the Mig-31. With this powerfull AESA radar, nothing could challenge the SU-35.
Have you more clues ?

I don't think Su-35 will be the backbone of the RUAF. I think it will be the Su-27SM or Su-30's, as they are in larger numbers. Su-35S is good and all, but they will need to solve its shortcommings (imports) in order to make it the backbone.

sepheronx wrote:I don't think Su-35 will be the backbone of the RUAF.  I think it will be the Su-27SM or Su-30's, as they are in larger numbers.  Su-35S is good and all, but they will need to solve its shortcommings (imports) in order to make it the backbone.

Su-35 and PAK-FA will be the backbone of RuAF air defense regiments. I think Su-35 have less imported parts inside than Su-30, which is meant for export. Considering, that Su-35 use a lot of components from PAK FA, I don't see a lot of problems for their further production.

I note as what I've seen from the documents availlables. This aircraft, beside the Mig-35 are really game changing between the hands of Russia. SU-35 has an Irbis-E radar able to detect every stealth fighter at a distance 100 Km -it is official, the reality, the features of of the PESA radar are classified, the distance of the detection must be far higher than 100 km, I would say around 200 km-. In fact at this distance the SU-35 is able to engage the F-22, with its battery of air to air missiles. This is the case where, F-22 is completly stealth-as we've seen, it is completly impossible- the SU-35 could -theoretically- engage it at this distance. At this step, in order to defend itself against the sukhoi -or mig- killer, the F-22 will have to switch on its radar, if it dooes, it will be immediatly detected and tracked by all classics radars, and could kill the US fighter. As the SU-35, and the Mig-35 integrated C4I components,  are among the most important game changers, and without any doubts with these new hardwares, Russia, and China will end the US unipolar world era. The SU-35, and Mig-35 set the end of US air suprematy that prevailled since the early 2000's and not since the Soviet Union collapse. Because even in the 90's, Russia had hardwares that dispute the US air suprematy. After all the F-117, and the B-2 downed above the Serbia's skies, were due thanks to the help of Russia.

There were no B-2s shot down in Serbia...

The F-117 was enough to prove their abilities were excellent.

The main problem for modern fighters against real stealth aircraft is not detection or tracking but what to do about it... most long range AAMs are radar guided and the tiny radars in their noses have very short detection ranges against stealth fighters... they tend to operate in the X or Ku radar band for which aircraft stealth is optimised.

Long range IR guided missiles are a solution, but most current ones like the R-73 and R-27 require a lock before launch and are not likely to detect any aircraft at 100km... except an SR-71 flying at high altitude at mach 3.

Work on the Morfei AAM with lock on after launch IIR seeker offers enormous potential because that same seeker fitted to a very long range missile like the 280km R-37M means unlike an ARH it is totally passive homing and can be looking for targets from launch all the way to max range. A datalink back to the launch aircraft that is two way could transmit back to the launch aircraft the IR view as it travels, with any target detected could be examined by a small computer and compared with targets in a 3D IR database and identified. High priority targets can be selected and engaged automatically with the two way datalink back to the launch aircraft allowing the pilot to change the target if needed.

targets that don't appear on X band radar but appear on L band radar can be examined by launching an IIR guided R-37M lofted on a high flight profile looking down with an IIR sensor to find stealthy targets and engage them all totally passively...

http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2015/02/05_a_6400845.shtml

This article said that there is a number of difficulties in Su-35 production because a number of the aircraft's parts are produced by foreign companies, including Ukie and Western ones.

But Sukhoi claimed that the Ukie problem is not very tough because in the shadow Ukie still supplies many equipments to Russia and they will continue to do it.

higurashihougi wrote:http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2015/02/05_a_6400845.shtml

This article said that there is a number of difficulties in Su-35 production because a number of the aircraft's parts are produced by foreign companies, including Ukie and Western ones.

But Sukhoi claimed that the Ukie problem is not very tough because in the shadow Ukie still supplies many equipments to Russia and they will continue to do it.

We already talked about this.

New Su-35 with b/n 25.

Stealthflanker wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

For F-22's frontal RCS in the X-band, I wouldn't use anything less than 3 m^2.

Then why Russians bother making separate L-band radar within the leading edge ? Even old N001 Radar can detect 3 Sqm at 80-90 Km. What's your source of that 3 Sqm figure ?

About image of pharaon you posted on the next page.. If you insist that those IFF interrogators sticking out of the main antenna array is indeed a fully capable Primary Search Radar, do you have any evidence on it ? Like say detection range performance etc ?  

Another question is that if that L-band antenna sticking out of the main array is indeed capable of being Primary Search Radar.. Why Russians make separate radar installed within the leading edge ? Why not just do it the old way, put it on the main array ?

GarryB wrote:I suspect he meant 0.3m^2.

Naturally, I meant what I had written, more than 3 m^2.