PapaDragon wrote:Can anyone say what was the reason behind length reduction?
Usually upgraded versions grow in size.
I suspect that the reduced length of the bow may be related to the revised/modernised (ie smaller) equipment design and improved automation to reduce the boats complement? Apparently, the control room occupies the forward section, which may now be smaller with increased systems automation. If the living quarters is also reduced, it could result in torpedo storage/handling being shifted aft, thus shortening the boat?
T-47 wrote:The debate was about how many UKSK they have, 10 or 8.
There were some folks here earlier who said that Yasen will not have UKSK and that Severodvinsk construction delay was due to sub being redesigned in order to remove UKSK and replace it with something different
T-47 wrote:The debate was about how many UKSK they have, 10 or 8.
There were some folks here earlier who said that Yasen will not have UKSK and that Severodvinsk construction delay was due to sub being redesigned in order to remove UKSK and replace it with something different
I thought the discussion was about if Severodvinsk can use Zircon, since there was thought that the Severodvinsk (Yasen not Yasen-M) was refit to be able to fire both Kaliber and Oniks from only being able to fire Oniks. This means that the submarine did not get UKSK but a non-standard launcher system.
The UKSK launcher is a universal launcher... the only vessels likely to not get a UKSK launcher are old vessels a UKSK launcher wont fit properly in... like the angled ramp arrangement on the Slava class ships.
New built vessels would all get UKSK launchers.
The only vessels likely to actually get modified non UKSK launchers are the Oscars being upgraded for Onyx sleeves in their Granit tubes.
T-47 wrote:The debate was about how many UKSK they have, 10 or 8.
There were some folks here earlier who said that Yasen will not have UKSK and that Severodvinsk construction delay was due to sub being redesigned in order to remove UKSK and replace it with something different
This puts that discussion to bed
Whoever made that claim is retarded because its already proven that the Yasen did get UKSK....
the Question is that If the Yasen-M is getting 8 or 10 UKSK and Most Russian Sources that are reliable says 8 UKSK for 32 Launch Cells and 10 Torpedo Tubes (Size is unknown but people assume 533mms since most new russian torps are of that Calibre)
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-339.html
http://russianships.info/podlodki/885.htm ^ This one shows pictures of the Project 885 but the Spec card is supposedly for the Project 08851 (Yasen-M)
Whats interesting is that the Yasen is has two retractable two speed propulsion motors capable of 410 hp each for Silent Running.....
And that their Transmission is hybrid like the proposed US Columbia Subs...
Run on the Main Geared Turbine shaft in standard speeds but when it goes ultra quiet mode.... The Yasen switches to an Auxiliary Electric Powered Motor for its Propellers on Creep Speeds so that the main Geared Turbine shaft can shut down making less noise....
The multipurpose nuclear submarine K-560 Severodvinsk of project 885 of the Northern fleet successfully fired a seaborne cruise missile 3M-14 of the high-precision Kalibr (Caliber) weapons complex, the press service of the fleet said.
Russian Navy First Project 885 Yasen-class Submarine Severodvinsk (K-560)
"The crew carried out a combat exercise from submerged position at one of the training ranges of the Northern fleet in the Barents Sea. The missile was fired at Chizha range in Arkhangelsk region," it said.
The distance to the target was close to 600 kilometers. "Objective control confirmed all technical and flight parameters and that the missile was fired with assigned accuracy," it said.
The Severodvinsk nuclear submarine is the lead vessel of project 885 (codename Yasen). It was laid in 1993 and floated on June 15, 2010. The Navy flag was hoisted on the submarine on June 17, 2014. On July 27, 2014 during the parade devoted to the Russian Navy Day the submarine for the first time joined other warships at the roadstead of the Northern fleet main base in Severomorsk.
Fourth-generation nuclear submarines with missile and torpedo armaments of projects 885 and 885M are designated to destroy surface and underwater targets, as well as ground objects of the potential adversary. They can submerge to 600 meters and develop underwater speed of 30 knots. The project uses combined design - the light hull covers only the pressure hull in the front to decrease noisiness. For the first time in domestic shipbuilding the torpedo launches are located not in the bow but behind the central post compartment. The submarines are armed with Onix and Kalibr cruise missiles and a powerful torpedo-missile complex.
Director General of the Malakhit maritime design bureau of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Vladimir Dorofeyev earlier said that for the first time in the history of domestic shipbuilding the torpedo launchers were placed at an angle to the center plane in project 885 submarines. Besides, the Severodvinsk and similar submarines will be equipped with universal vertical launchers for Kalibr and Onix missiles. Submarines of project 885 are armed with ten 553mm torpedo launchers and eight vertical launchers with 32 cells located behind the deck-house. Kalibr missiles allow the submarines to fulfil a broad range of missions ranging from antisubmarine warfare to strikes at ground targets at a distance of up to 1500 kilometers. Dorofeyev said the concept of the new Russian submarine is slightly ahead of American designs. "The submarine will help the Russian Navy and government to accomplish a new function - non-strategic nuclear deterrence by high-precision long-range cruise missiles," he told the Military-Industrial Courier in 2016.
The Kalibr complex includes a family of anti-ship 3M-54 missiles, anti-ground 3M-14 missiles and antisubmarine missiles 91R1/RT2.
Since the Russian Navy engaged in Syria in October 2015 it fired 64 3M-14 missiles from the Kalibr complex. Most of them (44) were fired by the Caspian flotilla in October-November 2015. Another four 3M-14 missiles were fired from submerged position by the Rostov-on-Don diesel-electric submarine of project 636.6 from eastern Mediterranean in December 2015. In August 2016 two small missile boats of project 21631 (codename Buyan-M), the Serpukhov and the Zeleny Dol fired three cruise missiles from the Mediterranean Sea. In November 2016 at least three missiles were fired by the Admiral Grigorovich frigate of project 11356 also from the Mediterranean Sea. On May 30, 2017 the Admiral Essen and the Krasnodar diesel-electric submarine fired four 3M-14 missiles at ISIL targets near Palmyra. Six missiles were fired by frigates of project 11356 and the Krasnodar submarine in June 2017.
Papadragon wrote:There were some folks here earlier who said that Yasen will not have UKSK and that Severodvinsk construction delay was due to sub being redesigned in order to remove UKSK and replace it with something different
This puts that discussion to bed
Well we have some news here .The news is not encouraging . I mean it again disrupts the general point of view.
This is from the official Russ MOD.
Missile tests: massive strikes by 'Granite' complexes from submarines 'Voronezh and 'Orel'.
Status of Orel and Voronezh submarines from wiki
K-119 Voronezh 949A 25 February 1986 16 December 1988 29 December 1989 Northern Fleet Active, after overhaul completed in November 2011[34]
K-266 Orel 949AM 19 January 1989 22 May 1992 30 December 1992 Northern Fleet Active, after overhaul completed in April 2017[39][40]
From various sources it has been told that both submarines underwent 'serious' modernization replacing "GRANITE" launchers with "UKSK" LAUNCHERS.
Russ MOD wrote: SEPTEMBER 19 - SUCCESSFUL SHOOTS OF BASTION AND GRANITE COMPLEXES HELD IN THE NORTHERN FLEET IN THE AREA OF THE BARENTS SEA
The diverse forces of the Northern Fleet fired in the waters of the Barents Sea. "According to the plan of the exercises, the various strike forces of the fleet needed to hit several ship groupings of the conventional enemy stationed in different regions," the fleet press service reported.
The first missile strike on the target position, which was at a distance of about 400 kilometers, calculated the Bastion coastal missile system from its launch site at Cape Teribersky. Then, a massive missile strike against the naval grouping of the conventional enemy was carried out by the heavy nuclear missile cruiser Peter the Great together with the nuclear submarine cruisers Voronezh and Orel. Shooting was carried out by anti-ship cruise missiles "Granite" from different areas of the Barents Sea for a single purpose, located at a distance of 200 to 300 kilometers from the ships. Rocket submarine cruisers fired from underwater position.
Note: (This is official site of Russ MoD and they have clearly indicated all firings were GRANIT launches from different submarine position in barents sea)
According to the preliminary results of the exercises, all the targets for which missile firing was performed were successfully hit.
Granite missile firing from submarines Orel and voronezh
The first photo of Granite launch (I have never seen "Granite" from Russ MoD sources ) coming from NPO mash site. Rocket flames are 'enormous' and 'Hollywood shot'
Papadragon wrote:There were some folks here earlier who said that Yasen will not have UKSK and that Severodvinsk construction delay was due to sub being redesigned in order to remove UKSK and replace it with something different
This puts that discussion to bed
Well we have some news here .The news is not encouraging . I mean it again disrupts the general point of view.
This is from the official Russ MOD.
Missile tests: massive strikes by 'Granite' complexes from submarines 'Voronezh and 'Orel'.
Status of Orel and Voronezh submarines from wiki
K-119 Voronezh 949A 25 February 1986 16 December 1988 29 December 1989 Northern Fleet Active, after overhaul completed in November 2011[34]
K-266 Orel 949AM 19 January 1989 22 May 1992 30 December 1992 Northern Fleet Active, after overhaul completed in April 2017[39][40]
From various sources it has been told that both submarines underwent 'serious' modernization replacing "GRANITE" launchers with "UKSK" LAUNCHERS.
Russ MOD wrote: SEPTEMBER 19 - SUCCESSFUL SHOOTS OF BASTION AND GRANITE COMPLEXES HELD IN THE NORTHERN FLEET IN THE AREA OF THE BARENTS SEA
The diverse forces of the Northern Fleet fired in the waters of the Barents Sea. "According to the plan of the exercises, the various strike forces of the fleet needed to hit several ship groupings of the conventional enemy stationed in different regions," the fleet press service reported.
The first missile strike on the target position, which was at a distance of about 400 kilometers, calculated the Bastion coastal missile system from its launch site at Cape Teribersky. Then, a massive missile strike against the naval grouping of the conventional enemy was carried out by the heavy nuclear missile cruiser Peter the Great together with the nuclear submarine cruisers Voronezh and Orel. Shooting was carried out by anti-ship cruise missiles "Granite" from different areas of the Barents Sea for a single purpose, located at a distance of 200 to 300 kilometers from the ships. Rocket submarine cruisers fired from underwater position.
Note: (This is official site of Russ MoD and they have clearly indicated all firings were GRANIT launches from different submarine position in barents sea)
According to the preliminary results of the exercises, all the targets for which missile firing was performed were successfully hit.
Granite missile firing from submarines Orel and voronezh
The first photo of Granite launch (I have never seen "Granite" from Russ MoD sources ) coming from NPO mash site. Rocket flames are 'enormous' and 'Hollywood shot'
Firstly this post doesn't belong in this thread. And why looking for P-700 launch photos? MoD YouTube channel uploaded it right after the media release -_-
Papadragon wrote:There were some folks here earlier who said that Yasen will not have UKSK and that Severodvinsk construction delay was due to sub being redesigned in order to remove UKSK and replace it with something different
This puts that discussion to bed
Well we have some news here .The news is not encouraging . I mean it again disrupts the general point of view.
This is from the official Russ MOD.
Missile tests: massive strikes by 'Granite' complexes from submarines 'Voronezh and 'Orel'.
Status of Orel and Voronezh submarines from wiki
K-119 Voronezh 949A 25 February 1986 16 December 1988 29 December 1989 Northern Fleet Active, after overhaul completed in November 2011[34]
K-266 Orel 949AM 19 January 1989 22 May 1992 30 December 1992 Northern Fleet Active, after overhaul completed in April 2017[39][40]
From various sources it has been told that both submarines underwent 'serious' modernization replacing "GRANITE" launchers with "UKSK" LAUNCHERS.
.........
There is no way in hell that Oscar sub that got overhaul completed 2011 would have UKSK adapter. They were considering scraping them back then not upgrading them.
As for Orel they were pretty clear that next sub will be getting UKSK but not Orel.
I have no idea what you are getting at here but you are making zero sense. Also RuMoD translators are legendarily shitty at their job.
Yaah yu are correct .. severodvinsk has been tested numerous times with 'UKSK' launchers so it is highly likely that Yasen series will be getting UKSK (calibre grade) launchers.. The navy priority must be to 'unify and standardize' launchers and only one launcher UKSK is suited for that purpose..
..there are plans to equip "Ash" [Yasen] long-range cruise missiles X-101/102. They can have both conventional and nuclear warheads. The range is 5500 km at the transonic speed. The maximum deviation from the goal does not exceed 6 meters. This rocket will expand the functionality of "Ash", which will be able to solve strategic tasks. And in the early 20-ies it is planned to install hypersonic rockets "Zircon". http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/183999/?cba=1
These subs could wait for or follow CSGs longer than SSKs & target BMD sites, air/missile bases, etc. from over 2x distance.
The current navy land attack cruise missiles are called Calibr and have a range of between 2,500km and 3,500km, and are said to be based on the naval Grannat.... note I don't mean Granit, which is the SS-N-19 on the Kirov and Kuznetsov. The old grannat was not that much use except during WWIII because its accuracy was a CEP of about 200m so needed a nuclear warhead to be effective.
Current more accurate guidance systems gives a CEP of less than 10m so as seen in Syria a conventional warhead becomes an option as does its much wider deployment and actual use.
The missiles being talked about above are the Kh-101 and Kh-102, which are air launched models with extended flight ranges and new Russian jet motors.
Flight range has been described as between 5,500km and 10,000km but I suspect the latter is exaggeration.
Adapting these longer range missiles to the UKSK launcher means pretty much any new and most upgraded Russian ships will have the ability to use them in quite serious numbers and even a small corvette operating on a river way in Russia could hit NATO targets deep in europe....
Adapting these longer range missiles to the UKSK launcher means pretty much any new and most upgraded Russian ships will have the ability to use them in quite serious numbers and even a small corvette operating on a river way in Russia could hit NATO targets deep in europe.... Smile
They can already do this with kalibr from baltic, black and northern sea actually.
Is UKSK big enough for those missiles though? Maybe they'll do a swappable filler like has been rumored for the Oscar class Granit tubes (4* Kalibr or 3* Onix)
Edit: Ru Wiki says X-101 is 7.45m*0.742 vs Onix canister (I think) 8.9*0.72 (missile diameter 0.67) So there is plenty of length to add a booster but not sure about that diameter, presumably at least extra 5cm for canister like Onix would make it a bit over 7cm wider than Onix canister, may be there is room but might not be. If they were thinking ahead to spec UKSK to be big enough for these missiles they seem to have kept it pretty quiet.
Ok guys, The Kalibr is around 8.9m in length and 0.533m in diameter. The Kh-101 is around 7.5 meter in length and 0.742m in diameter. Now we have the P-700 with around 10m in length and 0.85 in diameter.
gaurav wrote:Granite missile firing from submarines Orel and voronezh
The first photo of Granite launch (I have never seen "Granite" from Russ MoD sources ) coming from NPO mash site. Rocket flames are 'enormous' and 'Hollywood shot'
We now know that Granite has been used in the UKSK, and therefore the smaller Kh-101 should be easily compatible.
UPDATE: Nevermind, i just noticed it's being launched from a Kirov.
Ok, once more. According to George1 in the UKSK thread, the UKSK should be compatible with the P-800, but the P-800 has a diameter of 0.7 (although some sources say 0.67) whether this can translate to 0.742 is anyone's guess.
But, since the Kh-101 is going to be modified anyway, it may get it's diameter shrunk.
George1 wrote:КBSМ: UKSK with "Onyx" and without
Rumors that not all ships equipped with a universal ship-based firing complex (UCSC), otherwise - installation (installations) of vertical launching (OHR) 3C14, can use the 3M55 Onyx, went for a long time, thanks to the participant of the Sea Forum of the Airbase Curious, who reported one corporate publication, The Design Bureau of Special Machine Building (KBSM, St. Petersburg) prefers not to advertise its activities in the interests of the Ministry of Defense - you will not find military products on the company's website (ref. 1), nevertheless, in the book "JSC KBSM 70 years old" published in 2015 and placed in the public domain, there are many interesting facts about products for the Navy. Below are quotes from the source.
So, "JSC KBSM 70 years old" the head of "KBSM for the Navy," section "Starting equipment and means of loading for modern surface ships and submarines of the Russian Navy" (pages 51-52):
"In recent years, launching equipment and loading facilities for missile systems 3K14, 3M55, 9K, 3K96, as well as for the small-sized torpedo package "Paket", deployed on the newest ships of the Russian Navy, have been developed, delivered or put into operation.
The family of vertical launchers of surface ships of the type 3С14 ensures the placement of the products of the complex 3K14 [KRO "Kalibr"] on the NK of the projects 1161К, 21631, 11356М, and on the NC of the projects 22350, 20385, 11442М, in addition, also the products of the complexes 3М55 [Oniks] And 9K [missile torpedoes of the Novator OKB]. KBSM is the developer and supplier of commercially manufactured transport-starting cups made of composite materials with a breakable lid for the products of 3K14 and 9K complexes. To load products of these complexes in the PU of the NC, complexes of loading devices (PCB) of the SM-456 type have been created.
It is unlikely that the non-applicability of the Onyx in some CSCs is related to the size of ammunition, since the 3M14 and 3M55 (without TPS) are approximately the same length (according to some estimates, about 8.1 and 8.6 m). Most likely the ammunition 3C14 is cut artificially due to the control system. Particularly absurd is the example of 20385 (a corvette with Onyx) and 11356 (a frigate without Onyx).
Notes: 1) the index of of the Navy 3M55 refers to the rocket, the "unclassified" index of the Onyx complex is not known to me; 2) the indices 3K14, 9K and 3K96 (the latter refers, I believe, to the Redut SAM) in authoritative sources do not occur and therefore cause doubts and need confirmation; 3) the 9K index looks strange - for the uniformity of the indexing system there is clearly not enough two figures; 4) the project index 11356M personally meets me for the first time; On the mortgage boards of the SDS figures 11356, on the "Yantar" in the course of 11356R; 5) roughness in the indexation of ships and products, in my opinion, should not compromise the value and reliability of information regarding the nomenclature of ammunition that can be used from the UVP 3С14 (UKSK) listed in the quote projects.
Application.
For those who are interested not only in the UKCSK, but also in other CBSS development launchers for ships of new projects, I quote one more quote from the same section (page 52):
"24 universal launchers SM-346 for the products of the 3K-14 and 3M55 complexes are vertically placed on the newest submarine pr.888. To ensure the loading of products in the UCP, a universal SMP SM-456-885 has been created, taking into account the current trends, on the nuclear submarine prospect 08851 In the containers are placed removable frame-modules CM-704 for the products of complexes 3K-14 and 3M55.
Launcher stations 20380 and 22350 also house the SM-588 (SM-588-03) launchers developed at the KBSM for the Patch complex. To accommodate the products of the complex [MPC] "Paket", transport and launch containers CM-549 have been developed. To service the products of the packages "Paket" and "Lasta" [for anti-torpedo protection of submarines] a universal ground service package CM-761 was developed, including a set of loaders SM-732.
' X-101 missiles are hardly crucial feature, especially with Zircon compatibility that UKSK has. Hell, even with just Onix missiles Yasens are extremely formidable platforms. And we all know they won't stop with Onix.
What I really want to hear is Navy ordering one more Yasen sub after Ulyanovsk. They will most likely never reach 10 planned subs but if they reach 8 they will be able to give both North and Pacific fleets 4 Yasens each before they move on to Huskies.
Ok, i went directly to the source. Here are the dimensions, you guys do the math. http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/klab-u/ https://concern-agat.ru/en/production/missile-systems-land-and-sea-based-missile-systems/3r-14uksk-kh-ship-general-purpose-firing-system.html
The point is that the Kh-101 and Kh-102 were designed for the Russian Air Force specifically to fit inside the Tu-160 cruise missile carrier.
They will also be carried externally on the Tu-95 and eventually internally on the PAK DA.
No other aircraft carry them AFAIK.
They are working on upgraded replacements for the Onyx called Zircon, so it would make sense they were also working on replacements for the Calibr with the new Russian motor and improved aerodynamics and stealth shape which would allow high altitude flight to the target area improving flight range and general performance.
The multistage supersonic models with the rocket terminal phase could be replaced with a scramjet powered hypersonic component that climbs and flys to high altitude at subsonic speed and then travels thousands of kms... and then dumps its large fuel tanks and high lift wings and accelerates to high speed with its jet engine in scramjet mode...
Indian's corvettes can fire brahmos from UKSK so p800 should be also compatible. The thing is that the fire control systems are not the same for oniks and kalibr. So if the sfup doesn't have it, it can't fire oniks if I'm not wrong.
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