Project 885: Yasen class

Well that raises an interesting question... they upgraded their Granit (SS-N-19) missiles to allow land attack for what are basically anti ship missiles, so that perhaps raises the question are their new Kalibr missiles multifunction.

As far as I was aware the Kalibr and resulting export Club family of missiles included a subsonic all the way anti ship missile, a subsonic all the way land attack cruise missile (called Kalibr), and a subsonic most of the way and high supersonic terminal portion anti ship model... plus of course the supersonic all the way Onyx (export models Yakhont and Brahmos) and of course the final Club family member is the anti sub ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to attack sub targets.

Now the Onyx has been given upgraded guidance to allow land targets to be engaged too so I suspect the subsonic all the way anti ship missile could be morphed in to the subsonic all the way land attack cruise missile so they effectively become one multipurpose missile and the subsonic/supersonic anti ship missile could be used in land attack situation to penetrate a defended land based target... so effectively making them all both land attack and anti ship weapons (except obviously the anti sub 91ER1 missile would actually make sense.

I would expect the new Zircon will be multirole too with both anti ship and land attack performance options.

That would mean instead of trying to guess how many missiles will be needed at the pier you can decide when you launch them...

Isos wrote:For strike role they can go with 50+30=80 land attack kalibr. If they are nuk armed they can be considered as strategic submarines and not attack submarine. One such sub can threaten all Europe because you basically need 2-3 small nuk to destroy a big city so it can destroy 30-40 cities.

Or with the anti ship kalibr it can attack a carrier formation from 800km away launching 80 missiles overwhelming the defence and destroying most of the ships.

50+20 is more realistic. You need some torpedos/ASW missiles for self-defence.

Magnetic detection is used to pinpoint the exact location of the sub so sound gets you close enough to find the precise location using MAD... then you know exactly where to drop the depth charges...

It only becomes important if it is also very quiet... and if they could not find it then it probably is that too.

GarryB wrote:and of course the final Club family member is the anti sub ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to attack sub targets.

Which one is this?

Which one is this?

Both the Club S and Club N integrated missile systems include the 91ER1 or 91ER2 ballistic rocket that delivers a 350mm torpedo to 40-50km range at a flight speed of about mach 2.5 (840m/s)

Here are the pages for the systems that include the Kalibr and Club cruise missiles for anti ship and land attack use including a subsonic and subsonic/supersonic anti ship model... note these are for export weapons with their ranges limited due to international agreements.

The data for the 91ER1/2 is for the anti sub ballistic weapon:

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/kalibr-ple/

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/kalibr-nke/

IMO it's a passive system turned on when the patrol aircraft flies low and if detects some sort of anomaly then they drop sonar nearby to see if it is a sub or not. A bit like IRST that detect a thermal signature but you will need radar to know distance, rcs, speed ...

No... almost the opposite. MAD is only effective pretty much on top of the sub so if you want to fly around waiting for the MAD to find it you will be scanning for ever.

MAD pinpoints the precise location of the target and is used in the final part of the search... you generally drop sonobuoys in a pattern to find noise sources... the pattern will maximise the chance of finding the sub without using millions of sonobuoys because you only have a limited number.

Once you hear something you will drop more sonobuoys closer to where you think the enemy sub is including active sonar buoys... and when you think you have a location and a track you use the MAD to pinpoint its actual position and drop depth charges on it.

Pinpointing exact location with such detector is almost impossible and it is only used on patrol aircraft which can't stay above the target.

Even if the MPA could fly at mach 10 at sea level using MAD would still not be an efficient way to search for submarines... once you have some sound signals and can triangulate down to a fairly small area you can then use MAD to pin point the location of the sub but until then it is not much use.

[quote]And if it doesn't give you precise info about deapth then deapth charges will be triggered too early or too late. (Even if they will still be very dangerous to any sub operating in the area). /quote]

You would not just drop one depth charge... you would drop half a dozen and could set each one to go off at a different depth... if the sub is shallow the aircraft would see it so most of the time if the plane can't see the sub it is several hundred metres down.... the deeper it is the more dangerous the depth charges are... on the surface the explosion has to do all the damage to the sub... at 600m it just needs to crack the hull and the water pressure of the sea will destroy the sub... but then no HATO sub will be operating at that depth anyway...

Isos wrote:For strike role they can go with 50+30=80 land attack kalibr. If they are nuk armed they can be considered as strategic submarines and not attack submarine. One such sub can threaten all Europe because you basically need 2-3 small nuk to destroy a big city so it can destroy 30-40 cities.

Or with the anti ship kalibr it can attack a carrier formation from 800km away launching 80 missiles overwhelming the defence and destroying most of the ships.

it would not launch all 80 at once against one target unless it really had to, it's against naval tactics to drain all your ammo stocks unless the target is something super High Value.

It would also launch missiles in waves, there is a massive safety concern for any sub launch too many missiles at one given time.

A carrier group would also be fairly well protected against Kalibers.

You need to go and study more because everything you said here is just wrong. This sounds like some video game logic.

GarryB wrote:Both the Club S and Club N integrated missile systems include the 91ER1 or 91ER2 ballistic rocket that delivers a 350mm torpedo to 40-50km range at a flight speed of about mach 2.5 (840m/s)

So the Club S and Club N are a cross between a missile and a torpedo, right?

It is fired just like a missile but when it approaches the target it drops into the water and behaves like a torpedo. Is that's what you are saying?

Can Club S and Club N be fired from from both surface vessels and subs?

Isos wrote:

RTN wrote:

GarryB wrote:Both the Club S and Club N integrated missile systems include the 91ER1 or 91ER2 ballistic rocket that delivers a 350mm torpedo to 40-50km range at a flight speed of about mach 2.5 (840m/s)

So the Club S and Club N are a cross between a missile and a torpedo, right?

It is fired just like a missile but when it approaches the target it drops into the water and behaves like a torpedo. Is that's what you are saying?

Can Club S and Club N be fired from from both surface vessels and subs?

Yes. It's a missile which drops a small torpedo at the end to hit a target under water. Advantage is that the missile part bring the torpedo near the target in matter of second (speed >900kh/m and range 50km) contrary to a torpedo that needs between half an hour and a hour to reach max range (speed 50-100km/h and range 50-100km depending on the torpedo).

Klub N is for surface ships, launched from UKSK and klub S for submarines launch from torpedo tubes or now VLS for subs.

It's a family of missile. Each type of missile has the variant for surface fire and underwater fire (Klub N and Klub S). Which means many different missiles in the family which also mean expensive to have all of them in good quantity for export countries.

Klub is the name of the export variant. The russian variant is called kalibr and is better than the export model.

How many seconds are you trying to play with here?.

Let me do some math for you, 50KM is about 31 miles.

Mach 2.5 is about 1918 MPH.

1918 MPH is about 32 miles per minute.

These are VERY short-range weapons and the second they leave the Launch tube a ship will know and will react. Plus they are very small so if two even hit a decent sized ship it will not sink unless it gets some godly hit. Modern warships are designed to stay a flow even if many compartments are flooded.

You are ignoring dozens of factors acting like these are some wonder weapons that will kill anything they touch and they won't unless it's a really small ship or they get some freak hit.

SeigSoloyov wrote:How many seconds are you trying to play with here?.

Let me do some math for you, 50KM is about 31 miles.

Mach 2.5 is about 1918 MPH.

1918 MPH is about 32 miles per minute.

These are VERY short-range weapons and the second they leave the Launch tube a ship will know and will react. Plus they are very small so if two even hit a decent sized ship it will not sink unless it gets some godly hit. Modern warships are designed to stay a flow even if many compartments are flooded.

You are ignoring dozens of factors acting like these are some wonder weapons that will kill anything they touch and they won't unless it's a really small ship or they get some freak hit.

SeigSoloyov what does have to do 91Р1/P2 with target ships ?
 

Maybe a little explanation can aid you.

91Р1 is am unique combined rocket/turbo jet propelled torpedo used by Federation ships and submarines to engage (usually with a salvo of 4 missiles) enemy SUBMARINES, with very high probability to hit, at maximum range and at area of initial contact (even transient) ,instead that at sonar stable psistional tracking.
Moreover the employment of this weapon allow the ship/submarine to evade immediately after the attack, also at maximum speed; in this way avoiding any chance of retaliation by aprt of the enemy.


The factor allowing that is the speed both of the delivering semi-ballistic rocket (over 700 m/s) and of its unique warhead, those days represented by an АПР-3М jet propelled torpedo.




You can find an extensive and detailed explanation of its unique technical features (export versions obviously) here:

https://missilery.info/missile/apr3

The aggregated efficiency index of this weapon ,both in offensive and derfensive operations, in comparison with classical torpedo's employment -except obviously for the average cost fo the attack-  is,particularly against the most up to date nuclear propelled submarines, greater of more than an order of magnitude.

A carrier group would also be fairly well protected against Kalibers.

If it knew they were coming, yes... it should be... Calibres would be used to sink supply ships, or land based targets rather than carrier groups.

You don't spend lots of money to design and build a range of high speed anti ship missiles and then just use Kh-35s against carrier groups.

So the Club S and Club N are a cross between a missile and a torpedo, right?

No.

Club S and Club N are families of missiles... if you look on the pages... it is not clear but there are sub sonic cruise missiles and there are subsonic and supersonic anti ship missiles and there are supersonic ballistic rockets that deliver torpedoes to attack subs. You will notice in the lists... the flight ranges indicate all these weapons have ranges of less than 300km and are export weapons. You will also notice the diameter of all these weapons... for 534mm torpedo tubes and 650mm torpedo tubes.

Club S I believe is the Submarine system and Club N is the Ship based system or the other way around...

In the ship based system the 533mm and 650mm weapons can be loaded into the UKSK launcher, but with the sub based system if you only have 533mm tubes you have to use only the smaller diameter weapons. All the weapons come in different sizes... the difference between the 91ER1 and 91ER2 is that one is a 533mm weapon and the other is a 650mm weapon.

The 91ER1/2 are basically ballistic rockets with a mini torpedo in the nose (a 350mm anti sub torpedo). The ballistic path is calculated to deliver the torpedo as close as possible to the detected sub threat and is launched at mach 2.5 towards the enemy sub. It wont detect it coming till it splashes down in the water close by and will have very little time to evade or escape. It is even quicker than using a helicopter to deliver the torpedo.

It is fired just like a missile but when it approaches the target it drops into the water and behaves like a torpedo. Is that's what you are saying?

It depends. I have seen video footage of one launched from a ships torpedo tube launcher... so it is launched into the water and it says under the water for about 20m or so and then it launches out of the water with its rocket engine. From a sub launch it launches from a standard torpedo tube and runs up to the surface and then ignites its rocket engine and powers in the direction of the target. In the UKSK launcher it just launches like a ballistic rocket vertically and then rolls into the direction of the target in a controlled flight to the target area.

Can Club S and Club N be fired from from both surface vessels and subs?

One is a sub system and the other is a ship system. Both are the export versions of the systems. The domestic models of the land attack 300km range subsonic club are called Calibre and have flight ranges of about 2,500km. The domestic models of the subsonic all the way anti ship missile and the subsonic but then terminal attack supersonic anti ship missiles also likely have much greater ranges too. AFAIK the 91ER1/2 in the domestic models don't have a much bigger range simply because the chance of detecting an enemy sub at much greater ranges is unlikely.

New models of these missiles are being developed for the UKSK-M... the UKSK can hold 750mm diameter missiles like Yakhont and Onyx, so the 533mm and 650mm weapons currently used are not filling the available space. Larger calibre bigger missiles with longer range make sense with the introduction of the UKSK and UKSK-M systems to all new Russian ships and many subs.

So for instance the new Calibre land attack missile can be bigger like the air launched Kh-102/102 and have a flight range of 5,000km or more.

Klub N is for surface ships, launched from UKSK and klub S for submarines launch from torpedo tubes or now VLS for subs.

Ahh, yes, that way around.... but also these are export systems... domestic systems have longer ranged missiles because they are not limited by missile export agreements.

It's a family of missile. Each type of missile has the variant for surface fire and underwater fire (Klub N and Klub S). Which means many different missiles in the family which also mean expensive to have all of them in good quantity for export countries.

I don't agree there... the missiles are fairly specific in capabilities and role... they are land attack or anti ship or anti sub. Some of them can be both anti ship and land attack.

The ship based club system can have weapons launched via deck mounted torpedo tube but I have only ever seen 533mm torpedo tubes on Ships and not 650mm tubes. For the bigger weapons you would need UKSK launchers which can launch all types if needed... and other weapons as well like Yakhont and Brahmos and Onyx.

The russian variant is called kalibr and is better than the export model.

My understanding is that the domestic land attack missile is called Kalibr but the other missiles are called Club in domestic use.

How many seconds are you trying to play with here?.

Let me do some math for you, 50KM is about 31 miles.

Mach 2.5 is about 1918 MPH.

1918 MPH is about 32 miles per minute.

These are VERY short-range weapons and the second they leave the Launch tube a ship will know and will react. Plus they are very small so if two even hit a decent sized ship it will not sink unless it gets some godly hit. Modern warships are designed to stay a flow even if many compartments are flooded.

You are ignoring dozens of factors acting like these are some wonder weapons that will kill anything they touch and they won't unless it's a really small ship or they get some freak hit.

The 91ER1 and 91ER2 are anti submarine weapons and would never be used against a ship... and a submarine would not know the rocket is coming till the torpedo splashed in the water nearby... unless they were at periscope depth at the time of the launch and were watching the ship that launched the rocket... but even then what could they possibly do to escape...

There of course are things a sub can do like release decoys and jammers and anti torpedo torpedoes, but most of the time this weapon is going to land within 500m or so of them and by the time they realise what is happening it will be too late.

BTW very short range weapons... yes... that is correct... they are... because all such weapons like Subroc and Asroc are also short range weapons because the days of detecting enemy subs 500km away are over. The US spent lots of money developing a weapon called Sea Lance to replace Subroc but never put it into service because at the time Soviet subs were becoming rather more quiet and there simply was no need for a weapon with a greater range than Subroc because enemy subs would be unlikely to be detected at the greater range it could reach. It was also bigger and heavier and more expensive... but surprise surprise they cancelled it anyway.

These days they would buy some anyway and make it a command ship.

Not short range. 533mm torpedo which are the most common have 50km range with newest ones having greater range. But that doesn't matter because a sonar would have hard time tracking a military target, in ASW mission, further than 20km.

With a netcentric system, the ship that launches the missile might not be the platform that detected the sub... anti sub helos have much greater flight range and endurance if they don't have to carry torpedoes... as long as they don't operate more than 40km away from a ship equipped with this weapon they can just carry extra fuel instead of torpedoes...

GarryB wrote:I have seen video footage of one launched from a ships torpedo tube launcher... so it is launched into the water and it says under the water for about 20m or so and then it launches out of the water with its rocket engine.

If you have this video handy, do share.

Do you know of any western analogue (of this weapon)? I can't think of any.

Isos wrote:The russian variant is called kalibr and is better than the export model.

Better in this case means having a longer range? Sensors etc will be the same, I suspect.

You can't replace the torpedo with fuel.

The Russian and Soviet anti sub helo is the Ka-28 Helix... it does not carry weapon pylons... that is the assault Ka-29.

The Ka-28 carries its weapons along its centreline in a large weapon bay... it is long and narrow and designs specifically for a torpedo or a couple of depth charges in tandem. It can also carry a fuel tank in there to extend flight range. It is only about an 800 litre fuel tank so it is not huge but there is no drag imposed on the aircraft while carrying it and until it is used up it equates to the weight of about two helicopter carried torpedos.

Anyway they can have deapth charges and if they really need a torpedo they can send an helo equiped with one or two from another ship while the first one keep tracking the sub.

The 91ER1 is designed to sink submarines.... why do you think they would choose not to use it?

The 91ER1 would cover the distance to where the enemy vessel is rather faster than any torpedo or helicopter.

And now they will get the heli carriers so more helicopters for that role.

Can you not appreciate that helicopters carry sensors to find targets but if a nearby ship attacks the target instead of that helo not only can the helicopters cover more territory because they are not carrying weapons but they are carrying extra fuel, but also that a ship could launch rather more torpedos than your helicopters are likely to be carrying anyway.

Another factor is that when the helicopters drop their torpedos they stop sub hunting and have to go back to the ship to rearm... after they have determined if they got a kill or need to attack it again. Using the 91ER1 means once they find a target they can keep monitoring it as the ballistic missiles come in deploying anti sub torpedos... they could possibly assist the torpedos by dropping down a dipping sonar and actively pinging so the torpedoes can find their targets passively...

If you have this video handy, do share.

I will have a look. It was posted here a while back... several times... so you might recognise it but perhaps not realise at the time what was happening.

I have found the video I remembered... this is the predecessor of the 91ER1/2, western codename SS-N-16 Stallion... well actually because it is ship launched from 533mm torpedo tubes I rather suspect that unlike what it says on the youtube page it is not the 650mm Stallion, but the SS-N-15 but they are related weapons.
The old designation is the VPK-7.

Do you know of any western analogue (of this weapon)? I can't think of any.

The western equivalent would be Asroc for the ship launched weapon and Subroc for the sub launched weapon... basically anti ship rocket and sub launched rocket is what their names mean I guess.

Better in this case means having a longer range? Sensors etc will be the same, I suspect.

I would expect the hardware inside would be newer and better and rather more comprehensive in the Russian model... and it would likely be designed to accommodate nuclear warheads as well unlike the export missile.

They would likely remove most of the secret sensors and jammers from the export model.

GarryB wrote:
The 91ER1 is designed to sink submarines.... why do you think they would choose not to use it?

Came across this latest article written by H.I.Sutton how China has build underground tunnels to protect its submarines


https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/05/05/chinese-navy-submarines-are-protected-by-underground-tunnels/#6f8e1c0c6312

In a few years ships and subs will be working together with UUV´s, from the big Poseidon down to small ones, like a sonar buoy with propulsion. Imagine a ship surrounded by a few of these UUV´s, 20 - 50km from the ship. They could locate a unfriendly sub and then the ship can launch a ASW missile immediately

Isos wrote:If the target is too far an helicopter will be there faster. The kalibr torpedo missiles have 50km max.
I agree if it had more range like 500km or more then it would be better. But even then equiping helos with deapth charges and torpedoes has the advantage that the target can be attacked ASAP and you don't risk losing the track while the missile is flying and reach an empty area
.

Isos can you explain, please, what you mean ?

I truly do not understand the rational of those assertions.

The missile carries a torpedo with a range of 30km and his own sonar. The advantage of the missile is the speed in which the torpedo reaches the target area and the greater range.