Project 885: Yasen class

Mindstorm wrote:

Isos wrote:If the target is too far an helicopter will be there faster. The kalibr torpedo missiles have 50km max.
I agree if it had more range like 500km or more then it would be better. But even then equiping helos with deapth charges and torpedoes has the advantage that the target can be attacked ASAP and you don't risk losing the track while the missile is flying and reach an empty area
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Isos can you explain, please, what you mean ?

I truly do not understand the rational of those assertions.

1) If you detect a submarine at 200km away with a heli that doesn't have weapons to engage it. Sending another helicopter with a torpedo will be faster than sailing 150km with your ship and launching the 50km range kalibr-torpedo missile. The helicopter will go at 300km/h while the ship around 30km/h.

2) if your kalibr-torpedo has a range of 500km it is still better to have weapons on the helicopter as it can launch them as soon as he detects the sub because the sub will try to run away quickly.

Isos wrote:If you detect a submarine at 200km away with a heli that doesn't have weapons to engage it. Sending another helicopter with a torpedo will be faster than sailing 150km with your ship and launching the 50km range kalibr-torpedo missile.

If a contact with a submarine is received at 200 km of distance you will never envoy an helicopter there , you will not envoy even 30 helicopters there with also 2 or 3 ASW ships, because your chance to find and track that sub when you will reach the point of contact will be lower than to find snow in the hell.

The difference is that if you have a positive contact with an enemy submarine at 50 km those helicopters will equally have almost zero chance to find the submarine at theirs arrival 20 minutes later while a foreign ship armed with an export version of 91Р1 could put at 50 km an АПР-3М on the point in about 72 seconds and the АПР-3МЭ will reach the submarine at 130 km/h ,not any other air delivered torpedo could engage a submarine at that speed.

Isos wrote:2) if your kalibr-torpedo has a range of 500km it is still better to have weapons on the helicopter as it can launch them as soon as he detects the sub because the sub will try to run away quickly.

You would be very deluded to find out at what ranges from a ship, ASW helicopters carry-on theirs anti submarine missions

Helicopters are mostly used to deploy remotely suonobuoys barriers , the missions to find the position of even only a single modern submarine from the moment of the first contact is a very, very long and complex operation involving dozens of different platforms , aerial , surface and submarine that attempt to create new pointd of discovery long the entire area of possible presence of that enemy submarine hoping to progressively reduce the search area after a series of subsequent transient contacts.

Even then the chances to engage a well manned modern submarine with this classical approach are very slim; in the wide majority of instance the submarine disappear and those operations become huge vaste of time and resources (domestic submarines in Cold War employed often modified МГ-74 to put entire ASW groups completely out of position and proceed quietly toward its target positions in the Atlantic/Pacific or long USA's coast).

No.

A helicopter can use its sonar in active mode which is much more reliable to find a submarine than passive sonar with some random echo that may not even be the sub and it doesn't care about stealth because the sub will hear him anyway.

Once it detects the sub it just need to launch the torpedo near its position and and it will work autonomously.

A ship using active sonar is dead meat since the sub will play with deapth to hide and attack.


The torpedo on the kalibr is the same as helicopter launched torpedo. Same class of torpedo. The kalibr will bring it in 73 seconds but the helicopter will bring it in 0 second as it will be above the target.

Moreover such torpedo's seaker have very small range for detecting submarines. The sooner and closer you launch them against a target the more chances you have to hit.

If a contact with a submarine is received at 200 km of distance you will never envoy an helicopter there , you will not envoy even 30 helicopters there with also 2 or 3 ASW ships, because your chance to find and track that sub when you will reach the point of contact will be lower than to find snow in the hell.

That's why I'm saying helicopter equiped with torpedoes have an advantage over non equiped helicopters that would wait for the ship to fire its 50km range missile like suggested by Garry.

Isos, did you bother to read?

Helos are SLOW, rocket-torpedos are FAST.

When you get one transient contact, you need to prosecute it as fast as possible, not fuck around with a helo that can what? Travel maximum 250kmh? You will get to the area where the transient was picked up, and you won't find shit because dipping sonars, while active, don't have a lot of range and limited detection ability.


EDIT: If you're trying to imply that you want to use ASW helos like some regular airwing searching one square nautical mile at a time, you can quickly forget this notion, you will run out of bouys and fuel LONG before you even cover an acceptable amount to even prevent ONE submarine from getting close to launching torps, much less antiship missiles.

And did you read what I wrote ?

Helicopters can look for subs and engage it immediatly with a torpedo.

Your missile may be faster but it has only 50km range.

A contact at 200km from the ship will be picked up by the helicopter instead of the ship. And the faster way to engage it is launch a torpedo from the heli directly. The second faster way is to send another helicopter equiped with a totpedo if the first didn't had one. The last being to sail your ship for 150km at 30km/h so around 5h and launch a missile but the target will be long gone.


http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/mgk-400/

That's the export sonar for kilo class. In passive mode 16km against submarines (but I don't know what the noise figure is but it's probably louder than modern subs). Surface tagets are detected at 100km, tells you why subs have the advantage over surface ships.

Helicopter with active sonar are the best tools to hunt submarines and their sonar certainly doesn't have 1sq nautical mile range. Don't bring numbers from your ass. Prove them.

Isos wrote:A helicopter can use its sonar in active mode which is much more reliable to find a submarine than passive sonar with some random echo that may not even be the sub and it doesn't care about stealth because the sub will hear him anyway.

Once it detects the sub it just need to launch the torpedo near its position and and it will work autonomously.

A ship using active sonar is dead meat since the sub will play with deapth to hide and attack.


The torpedo on the kalibr is the same as helicopter launched torpedo. Same class of torpedo. The kalibr will bring it in 73 seconds but the helicopter will bring it in 0 second as it will be above the target.

I unddrstand that your line of reasoning start from an irreal assumption : that helicopter would be were the submarine is when it carry out its ASW mission. Is for this assumption that you believe that "helicopter" will deliver the torpedo from zero distance

In substance you start from an arbitrary moment where an ASW helicopter search from a submarine and that the enemy submarine would be just in its area of dipping/buoyng spiral search.

In the reality the mission of that helicopter - or for better say helicopters and ships and aircraft ,if available - start with a REMOTE CONTACT (from a previously deployed sonobuoy barrier, a group of ASW aircraft, a sea bottom sensor network and so on) ; this initial contact in western literature is named "datum".

The possibility to even only begin an operation with some chance to find the enemy submarine (in the hypothesis that was it and not a purposely delivered decoy) triggering this initial contact or "datum" depend very strongly from the time of arrival to the point of the datum because this factor reduce the area of search (area of uncertainty) and the number of sonar dips and/or sonobuoy's delivery that you can execute in the area.


Obviously for the helicopters that carry sonars, or MAD and torpedos ,is necessary to balance the payload, because all those payloads collide with both the fuel , authonomy and speed required to reach the datum point in a timely manner and prevent the AoU (area of uncertainty) to become too big and having contemporaneously the time to do several sonar dips in a spiral pattern ariund the datum and/or deliver sonobuoys.

If you want to read something in english language on the subject you can read this, about the ASW missions with the MH-60R "Seahawk".  

   
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/81222256.pdf

And if you don't have other sensors in the area where your operates but you know enemy has sub hunting your ships ? Like for exemple Malvinas war during which both had only their ships/subs to track subs.

Sunoboys droped by helicopters can make a barrier for few hours since they work on battery and are worse than the heli sonar in terms of perf and they have limited stocks.

Waiting for remote contact will send your ships to the bottom. The best is have plenty of choppers and patrol the area around your ship and expend that zone if you find nothing. That can be made by dropping sunoboys or use their own sonars while the ship's sonar will cover the zone around the ship.

Isos wrote:Waiting for remote contact will send your ships to the bottom. The best is have plenty of choppers and patrol the area around your ship and expend that zone if you find nothing. That can be made by dropping sunoboys or use their own sonars while the ship's sonar will cover the zone around the ship.

I'm yet to find credible evidence, based on which I can say that helos or even aircraft like P8 Poseidon are extremely effective in anti submarine operations.

Leave alone SSNs, even modern day SSKs can dive to such depths that it's impossible for anti sub helos to even effectively detect them. Assuming they are detected, why do navies believe that a few torpedoes  can hit those submarines? There is hardly any evidence of too many successful hits.

SSKs being engaged will also detect the entry of a torpedo  in the water and will immediately begin evasive maneuvering. How long will a air launched torpedo last in water after it is launched? Just a few minutes. So what is that torpedo's kill probability?

And I'm not even considering Limitations like - carrying too many torpedoes will result in fewer sonobuoys, which will result in reduced detection capability and carrying too many sonobuoys will result in fewer torpedoes, which will result in reduced kill capability.

Helicopter can stay above water and put its sonar as deap as the cable is long. Moreover it can use its active sonar instead of passive which gives it a better picture.

It can also lay some sunoboys to create a line of detection.

The torpedo they carry won't be launched blindly. Coordinates of the sub will be put inside and it has a an active sonar onboard.

The sub is a slow target for such weapons. If the torpedo is launched at less than 2km away from it the sub won't even have time to move. The torpedo will move at 100km/h.  It's not a jet flying at mach a and taking 9g. Evasive manoeuvres are taken to escape the detection by the helicopter. The torpedo will know which direction the sub is moving, what speed ... it's not WW2 torpedoes. Dummy target won't affect it. That's why Russians are deploying hardkill anyitorpedo torpedoes.

They even have IR guided torpedo that basically see the sub big signature. But I don't know if the smaller ones have it. That's something a sub can't escape from ...

Isos wrote:Sunoboys droped by helicopters can make a barrier for few hours since they work on battery and are worse than the heli sonar in terms of perf and they have limited stocks.

Obviously sonbuoys have lower performances in comparison with the sonar on board an ASW helicopter, but i suspect that you do not know what are the performances of those ASW helicopter's sonars.....

If you would have read the document i had pointed out in the previous post ,you would have realized that a specialized ASW, such as MH-60R, must execute numerous "dips" with its active AN/AQS-22, in order to cover a relatively small area of possible presence of the enemy submarine.

Naturally also in this document ,the only aim of which is to establish mathematically the most efficient pattern for sonar dipping and sonobuoy's delivery, there are assumptions made to facilitate the computations, among all in particular that the enemy sub would be not aware to be "hunted" and that will never occupy a sector already searched by the AN/AQS-22 in previous dips; obviously that never realize in reality because a modern submarine can detect the presence and position of an ASW helicopter as its rotor close the water surface ....for not say obviously its active sonar in the water.

Modern sumbarines very often and purposely pass in area previously controled by enemy ASW units so to exit from theirs area of surveillance , this is the reason for which ASW search missions terminate with enemy submarine escaping.

Isos wrote:The best is have plenty of choppers and patrol the area around your ship and expend that zone if you find nothing.

You want your helicopters continuosly patrol the "area around" your ship ? At what range ?

Try to not reason in abstract : set a range, compute the related circumference's area and try to figure how much helicopters you would need to cover that area for an hour (computing that at the grow of the distance the persistence and the coverage area of the helicopter decrease sharply)......believe me, you will be strongly deluded by the outcome

Difference with a surface ship armed with 91Р1 is that an enemy submarine could be doomed only for the unlucky production of the first contact, well before the effective engagement range of its torpedos !

Within a matter of dozen of seconds 4 or 5 АПР-3М would be delivered around that submarine's position, its chances to escape from the area would be zero and those of survival would be very very low.

Came across this latest article written by H.I.Sutton how China has build underground tunnels to protect its submarines

A submarine in a tunnel is not an effective submarine. If they are going to hide them away and not use them then they might as well not have any.

Russia may have a problem with detecting a modern submarine such as a very quiet Virginia probably even from 10 km.

SSBNs would be hunted using active sonar, but no Virginia class submarine would go anywhere near Russian coasts because the sea bed sonar arrays would be Russias best opportunity to detect them.

Russia doesn't need to sink US SSBNs... just shooting down their SLBMs with S-400 will be good enough.

Similarly, in the case of the Yasen ship, where the USA could not detect it when it was sailing on the Atlantic. Current submarines are so quiet that it is very difficult to detect them from a distance of 40-50 km?

Which is pretty much why the domestic versions don't have much greater ranges... there is no point.

If the target is too far an helicopter will be there faster. The kalibr torpedo missiles have 50km max.

They also have helicopters as an option too...

I agree if it had more range like 500km or more then it would be better. But even then equiping helos with deapth charges and torpedoes has the advantage that the target can be attacked ASAP and you don't risk losing the track while the missile is flying and reach an empty area.

500km would be ridiculous... the rocket would need to be enormous to deliver a torpedo that distance... and 99% of the time it would not be used to anything like that distance.

They are developing Minoga... a 500km/h plus replacement for the Helix family of helicopters... I am sure that will be plenty.

If the taret is too far your helo will run out of fuel anyway and you loose the track of the target. The sub won't wait for your torpedoes. Eitger it will use missile to destroy your helicopter or run away.

You think one ship will launch one helo to attack one sub?

Traditionally subs are hunted by groups of ships with multiple helicopters running search patterns looking for the signatures of submarines... keep in mind that in the near future such a game is going to be complicated by numbers of unmanned underwater vessels that look like subs and might sound like subs too.

50km max range for the kalibr torpedo missiles means if the target is 150km away the ship will need to sail for 100km so 2 hours. The helicopter would have used plenty of fuel for patroling and finding the sub so it would have very low amount left for tracking it. If it has a torpedo it can destroy the sub quickly.

If the target sub is more than 50km away from the ship it presents less of a threat to the ship... and other ships closer to where the helicopter is searching might be able to take the shot...

Once the helicopter gets more than 40km away from the ship it is operating from it can fly back and pick up some torpedoes or guided depth charges...

Helicopters can look for subs and engage it immediatly with a torpedo.

It can but any enemy SSK will detect the helicopter well before any helicopter will detect the sub and will be gone and never found at 200km let alone 50km.

A helicopter looking for subs is not the same as a helicopter looking for tanks... looking is the key, because you can't see anything... the most common use for the helicopter and the dipping sonar will be looking for mines and enemy subs in very shallow water where they might actually see the sub...

Surface tagets are detected at 100km, tells you why subs have the advantage over surface ships.

Surface targets are not trying to be quiet... especially British ships apparently...

And if you don't have other sensors in the area where your operates but you know enemy has sub hunting your ships ? Like for exemple Malvinas war during which both had only their ships/subs to track subs.

Sunoboys droped by helicopters can make a barrier for few hours since they work on battery and are worse than the heli sonar in terms of perf and they have limited stocks.

Waiting for remote contact will send your ships to the bottom. The best is have plenty of choppers and patrol the area around your ship and expend that zone if you find nothing. That can be made by dropping sunoboys or use their own sonars while the ship's sonar will cover the zone around the ship.

So if that is the case... how many hundreds of kilometres away from the ships you are protecting do you think your helicopters could possibly cover with as you admit a limited number of disposable sensors on board them.
This restriction and reduction in range actually counts in favour of ship launched high speed weapons...

Land based MPAs obviously make coverage better... especially with the shallower coastal waters...

How close can the yasens get to US borders? I have heard the US claim they spotted a Russian spy ship from 30 miles away. And russia claimed they were 12 miles away(anything within 12 miles is territorial waters) from US borders. Project starfish prime a 1.40-1.45 megaton nuke detonated at a 400km altitude and a 1450km distance away from Hawaii caused 300 streetlights to blow up along with alarms going off and radios have a hard time communicating......so this means a Zircon with a huge nuclear warhead can be fired from 12-100 miles before it starts to rise and cruise in 30-40kms. Intercept that than basically all electronics and radars will get wiped out. If they are extremely EMP resistant(no such thing) that giant radiation cloud from the detonation will screw up radar readings until the next Zircon flies by behind that cloud. SLBMs which are like ICBMs need to climb up to a 1000km altitude before descending but they can be intercepted at a 1000km altitude which is sort of a safe distance from effecting electronics down low.

The amount of yasens and Zircon being declared operational will definitely start changing the U.S. position on the start treaty. The amoint of bases around russia while withdrawing from the ABM treaty resulted in Russia from withdrawing or violating the INF treaty. In other words builiding up a defense shield around russia and for yourselve to eventually deter russias nuclear armed weapons in the far future is deemed now impossible because of low flying high payload nukes that can get very close

Job of Yasens is to deal with enemy surface and sub fleets, hitting land targets is just a bonus feature derived from versatility of missiles and VLS it has

EMP is best generated with nuclear explosions outside the atmosphere, so ideally you could fit an EMP optimised nuclear weapon into a satellite or something... when it is passing over the US set it off... with a string of these in orbit in satellites that do other things of course not only could you make them blind at the critical time (ie just as your ICBM and SLBM warheads are arriving on target), but you could continue to blind them over a long period depending how many you have and their orbit.

BTW spotting spy ships are easy... they sit on top of the water... do you means spy subs... spying is an important role for most SSNs and SSKs... very similar to what the US AF did with retired bombers... they relabelled them as recon planes and tested Soviet air defences... often with fatal results for the American crews.

A recon version of the B-1B would be RB-1B... etc... they simply added an R to the B for bomber designation...

Kazan SSGN: https://ria.ru/20170331/1491228598.html?in=t

thegopnik wrote:How close can the yasens get to US borders? I have heard the US claim they spotted a Russian spy ship from 30 miles away. And russia claimed they were 12 miles away(anything within 12 miles is territorial waters) from US borders. Project starfish prime a 1.40-1.45 megaton nuke detonated at a 400km altitude and a 1450km distance away from Hawaii caused 300 streetlights to blow up along with alarms going off and radios have a hard time communicating......so this means a Zircon with a huge nuclear warhead can be fired from 12-100 miles before it starts to rise and cruise in 30-40kms. Intercept that than basically all electronics and radars will get wiped out. If they are extremely EMP resistant(no such thing) that giant radiation cloud from the detonation will screw up radar readings until the next Zircon flies by behind that cloud. SLBMs which are like ICBMs need to climb up to a 1000km altitude before descending but they can be intercepted at a 1000km altitude which is sort of a safe distance from effecting electronics down low.

The amount of yasens and Zircon being declared operational will definitely start changing the U.S. position on the start treaty. The amoint of bases around russia while withdrawing from the ABM treaty resulted in Russia from withdrawing or violating the INF treaty. In other words builiding up a defense shield around russia and for yourselve to eventually deter russias nuclear armed weapons in the far future is deemed now impossible because of low flying high payload nukes that can get very close

The most proven with out a shadow of a doubt violation was Mk. 41 cells in Aegis Ashore, all claims of Russian violation of the INF Treaty was infantile supposition.

The most proven with out a shadow of a doubt violation was Mk. 41 cells in Aegis Ashore, all claims of Russian violation of the INF Treaty was infantile supposition.

They used the Oniks missile from ground launchers against ground targets in Syria. The missile has more than 500km range in hi-hi-hi configuration.

So this is technically a violation. But it still doesn't have enough to threaten key US bases around Russia like theones in Germany.

But US are pissed that they have the kalibr whic is better than the tomahawk with a 2000+km range and it is used by universal launchers. So they can have a similar ground mk-41 launcher but that can also move because they russians puts all their missiles on trucks wgich is better than US silo based cells.

You don't need to be as smart as Einstien to understand the treaty was going to be cancelled by the US. They want an advantage in case of war and Russia just catch up with the kalibr family their advance in long range missiles they enjoyed in the 90s and 00s. And now they are loosing their mind because both China and Russia have better hypersonic programs.

How close can the yasens get to US borders?

Even if they can't safely get too close, MRBMs from Chukotka & Kalibres/Zircons on ships from Venezuelan/Cuban waters can reach W. & E. US Coasts respectively.

SLBMs which are like ICBMs need to climb up to a 1000km altitude..

They can fly at a shallower trajectories, but the range will be shorter.

They used the Oniks missile from ground launchers against ground targets in Syria. The missile has more than 500km range in hi-hi-hi configuration.

No they didn't.

They used Syrian Yakhont ground based missiles with a flight range limited to 280km in line with the export treaty on guided missiles.

They did launch some Onyx missiles from ships which don't have any range restrictions because they are ship launched.

Trust me... if they actually did launch Onyx missiles from ground launchers in Syria at targets more than 500km away the Americans would have broadcast that fact to the world repeatedly and as loud as they could instead of pretending a existing ground based cruise missile associated with the Iskander programme broke the rules instead (which it didn't).

So this is technically a violation. But it still doesn't have enough to threaten key US bases around Russia like theones in Germany.

Technical Smechnical... the Mk-41 launchers are multi missile launchers designed to launch a range of naval missiles including the Tomahawk cruise missile. If they respected the treaty they could have built a special land based launcher that could only carry Standard SAMs, but they didn't.

The Mk-41 is a land based cruise missile launcher in clear direct violation of the INF treaty.

Several of the missiles they tested their ABM systems against were also directly in violation of the treaty too.

You don't need to be as smart as Einstien to understand the treaty was going to be cancelled by the US.

The real irony is that the INF treaty was much more restrictive on Russia than it was on the US... Russia has China and the Middle East and Europe to point missiles at so having 5,000km range land launched missiles is much much cheaper that directing one of the ICBMs or SLBMs at such targets because those are limited by treaty in number.

With the INF treaty gone all their ICBMs and SLBMs and air launched cruise missiles and Poseidons and long range cruise missiles can all be directed at the US and shorter ranged smaller lighter cheaper weapons can be developed to hit the closer targets.

More Ironically all this BS will make China realise they probably need more than just a few hundred nuclear missiles in deterrence and that a few thousand might be more useful for them too... which makes the entire wests position much much worse.

They can fly at a shallower trajectories, but the range will be shorter.

Not as much as you might think.... a full trajectory projectile the higher the trajectory the faster it needed to go to get up there, so bigger trajectories means longer range... but if you take one of those missiles and make the trajectory much more shallow you get more horizontal speed than height but as long as you exit the atmosphere then drag becomes zero so you trade a little extra flight speed for height so the difference in range actually would not be that significant for most targets... with new reentry vehicles that skip off the atmosphere then it is effectively greatly increasing range with a relatively low trajectory flight....

Good time: boats of the Ash project will be able to launch Zircons in the Arctic

Russian strike submarines are ready to fulfill any combat missions in the northern latitudes

https://iz.ru/1018369/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/podlednoe-vremia-lodki-proekta-iasen-smogut-zapuskat-tcirkony-v-arktike

GArryB, how would an AS400 be able to shoot down an SLBM? These woudl be launched thousands of miles from Russia. I have serious doubts an AS400 could shoot down the warheads ...maybe they can I dunno. It has never been touted as a missile defence system.

mnztr wrote:GArryB, how would an AS400 be able to shoot down an SLBM? These woudl be launched thousands of miles from Russia. I have serious doubts an AS400 could shoot down the warheads ...maybe they can I dunno. It has never been touted as a missile defence system.

It's not the role of S-400 anymore but something much bigger like S-500 or the Galosh ABM around Moscow.

The delivery of the Kazan nuclear submarine is likely to happen only in 2021

The Izvestia newspaper in the material of Aleksey Ramm and Bogdan Stepovoy “Pass the Kazan”: the latest submarine is being prepared for state tests. The submarine of the Yasen-M project will become the carrier of Zircon hypersonic missiles, reports that State tests of the head nuclear submarine cruiser K-561 Kazan of the modified project 08851 (885M, code Yasen-M) will not be launched until the fall of 2020, which actually means a delay in the delivery of the ship to 2021 (which, however, was predicted even more than a year ago).

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4056034.html

GArryB, how would an AS400 be able to shoot down an SLBM? These woudl be launched thousands of miles from Russia. I have serious doubts an AS400 could shoot down the warheads ...maybe they can I dunno. It has never been touted as a missile defence system.

Western SLBMs are ballistic weapons... they can make minor flight corrections to accurately hit a target but have no target evasion capacity.

The S-400 can intercept targets moving at 4.8km per second... which raises the question what targets might travel at such a speed...

ICBMs have double the range of most SLBMs so one would assume double the speed right?

The S-500 is designed to intercept targets moving at 7km/s, which is only 2.2km/s faster than targets the S-400 can intercept... S-500 is intended to intercept incoming ICBM warheads.

It was only possible when the ABM treaty was torn up... I would suspect a lot of ICBM warheads could be intercepted by the S-400 at lower altitudes because most warheads slow down rapidly in the atmosphere... except the powered manouvering ones that is...

GarryB wrote:

GArryB, how would an AS400 be able to shoot down an SLBM? These woudl be launched thousands of miles from Russia. I have serious doubts an AS400 could shoot down the warheads ...maybe they can I dunno. It has never been touted as a missile defence system.

Western SLBMs are ballistic weapons... they can make minor flight corrections to accurately hit a target but have no target evasion capacity.

.

Not only western. The mace is flying the same along a predictable trajectory