INS Vikrant-Future Indian aircraft carriers

GarryB wrote:The competition for the MRCA in India was pretty clearly to a budget of 10 billion dollars... it was totally dishonest to enter the competition with the Rafale and then once they "won" say they want 22 billion for the aircraft they needed.

Totally corrupt... and no real excuse either... everything was laid out.

Now you are just falling into the sensationalist trap of the Indian media, that is the per unit price the MoD was shooting for.  They knew very well the associated costs for maintenance and missiles would go much higher.  

Regarding the ships the issues found were not made up and could have been foreseen by both sides... even at 2.5 billion it was a cheap deal as it included the air group too... the original deal was stupid... practically a give away... yet it still took 10 years for them to sign off on it...

But lets face it... a real deep inspection and the Indians would probably have rejected it outright and they would have no carrier right now.

It is hard to say what the Russian navy might have decided from there... perhaps they might have upgraded it and put it into Russian service... hard to say.

You want to apply the unit cost to Russian deals but not the unit cost to French deals.  That is the Indian media again.  The total cost of the Goshkov deal is unknown, there are further cost hikes that the DefMin will not reveal.

https://www.pressreader.com/india/the-times-of-india-new-delhi-edition/20180402/281977493179835

Are you trying to suggest French weapons are actually cheap, but really just misunderstood?

The fact of the matter if you are going to say it was partly Russias fault for not properly examining the state of the ship, then wouldn't it also be fair to accuse France of underhanded play... the Indians didn't want the Rafale... they wanted local production of M2000s and were refused...

The Russians seem to be able to make Su-30s really cheaply, yet Su-30MKIs seem rather expensive... you already mentioned HALs ability go gouge their own government... are Russian shipyards not allowed to do the same to a good client?

I am suggesting that the Indian media has a bias against French weapons vs Russian weapons. They are more than happy to list the through life cost as the headline figure but when they list Russian prices it is only acquisition cost. They never add the price of weapon packages and maintenance contracts on our stuff.

The French didn't offer something at one price and then jack it up after money was already transferred. It is about the integrity of contracts.

Russian shipyards didn't gouge the client, it was the responsibility of Rosoboronexport to do the inspection before offering terms.

It was because when they signed the agreements with Russia, they never signed an actual after sale support. It was "buy the plane, that is it". It was after years they decided to buy an after sale support due to all the issues they experienced, especially with spare parts (which btw was a "sale by order". Yes, Russian jets would be more expensive. But from what I have heard, it is still roughly $50M per aircraft after all the support compared to what, 3x that for Rafale.

There are plenty of Indian newspaper and news sources who are happy to bash Russia and Russian products and thinks the US and France can do no wrong.

I remember having a discussion with an Indian member who was complaining at the cost of the Su-30MKI, but when he finally came up with figures it was the French and Israeli components that were the expensive fraction of the costs.

Of course if you want expensive leather seats then expect it to be expensive...

Conversely the Indian media continuously complained about the cost increases of the Gorshkov, yet I don't remember any complaints about the price of the Rafales, except reporting that the Indian military was not going to buy 126 aircraft at that price and so all that time and effort was wasted.

Throughout the 1990s a lot of countries saved a lot of money buying products from former users, only to find out that they the spares and support was absent. When those countries went to the manufacturer of the products for spares and support they found it was rather more expensive than they expected... the best time to negotiated a spares and support contract is when you are buying the product... but don't expect the producer to give you a good rate if you bought the product from another customer.... that is no gouging.... that is just business.

If I am selling cars I can offer you a service deal because of margins, so I can still make good money. If you bought the car from someone else I need to make my money from the spares and support contract so the price goes up... claiming I am overcharging or taking advantage is amusing.

Of course if I use the extra money I make to go on holiday to get a tan is one thing, if I use the money to upgrade my tools and get extra training so I can do more of my own servicing and not have to outsource it really reflects on me as a professional...

I can't copy & paste the text, but it's revealing:
https://www.janes.com/images/assets/840/85840/Arrested_development_Indias_plans_for_second_indigenous_carrier_hampered_by_setbacks.pdf

A year old article but still. Seems like the Vikrant will be a subject for delays on several points. The navy wants to rent a private shipyard that can hold the new carrier until 2030. The naval base at Vishakhapatnam wont be ready in time. And then they have had several years to complete it with the carrier it self being delayed several times.

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/indian-navy-to-berth-new-aircraft-carrier-at-private-shipyard-11584281200203.html

Satellite image of two Indian aircraft carriers, INS Vikrant under construction and operating INS Vikramaditya at the Cochin Shipyard Limited.



https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2278557.html

George1 wrote:Satellite image of two Indian aircraft carriers, INS Vikrant under construction and operating INS Vikramaditya at the Cochin Shipyard Limited.



https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2278557.html

12 years in construction and still havnt reached sea trails

The deck is on. India should paint it up and have a ceremony. Even if it isn't actually done. Then this lag time wouldn't seem as bad

Seeing the Vikramaditya beside the new one shows that India got a real carrier out of that deal.

walle83 wrote:12 years in construction and still havnt reached sea trails

While during this same timeline China purchased one and built 2.

Indian shipbuilding can't be compared to Chinese. China produces much more ships and has lot of experience.

India must go through lot of issues at every step and they are "helped" by western companies who make things longer to get the maximum possible money out of the project.

Isos wrote:Indian shipbuilding can't be compared to Chinese. China produces much more ships and has lot of experience.

India must go through lot of issues at every step

Experience wise Indian shipbuilders have more experience than China. They are building ships for the Allied forces right from the days of WW-I.

India's shortcomings include not being able to freeze the design on time and lack of economies of scale.

Isos wrote:they are "helped" by western companies who make things longer to get the maximum possible money out of the project.

India purchases ships from Russia and not any Western country. Some components are but certainly not the ship.

Sujoy wrote:

Isos wrote:Indian shipbuilding can't be compared to Chinese. China produces much more ships and has lot of experience.

India must go through lot of issues at every step

Experience wise Indian shipbuilders have more experience than China. They are building ships for the Allied forces right from the days of WW-I.

India's shortcomings include not being able to freeze the design on time and lack of economies of scale.

Isos wrote:they are "helped" by western companies who make things longer to get the maximum possible money out of the project.

India purchases ships from Russia and not any Western country. Some components are but certainly not the ship.

China produces the every 4 years the numbers of french navy. They have the more experience at building ships today. What india produced in 1914 is irrevelent.

India produces their own ships with the help of westerns. Last carrier is getting help from French and US and I bet it will cost 3-4 times compared to a russian carrier.

The question is what carrier will enter service first, The INS Vikrant or the Chinese Type-003.

As things are going I would say its neck by neck. The 003 probably will be launched in late 2021 and ready for trails by spring 2022.

The better question would be why would it matter about Chinese ship production... they will never get a contract to build a ship for India so for India it really does not mean anything to know whether they could build it faster or not.

GarryB wrote:The better question would be why would it matter about Chinese ship production... they will never get a contract to build a ship for India so for India it really does not mean anything to know whether they could build it faster or not.

It could matter who gets an superpower navy first. Chinas has no need for any Indian contracts, they are busy enough over the next 10-15 years.

walle83 wrote:

GarryB wrote:The better question would be why would it matter about Chinese ship production... they will never get a contract to build a ship for India so for India it really does not mean anything to know whether they could build it faster or not.

It could matter who gets an superpower navy first. Chinas has no need for any Indian contracts, they are busy enough over the next 10-15 years.

Lol. Indian navy is a mix of boats from different countries, specially when it comes to weaponery and radars/electronics which means it suffers the same stupid issues as their air force.

In terms of numbers you can compare them with a small country like Italy or Germany.

Chinese may have copies and for sure shittier systems than the west/russia but at least their ship can work togather and they have lot of them which is better than having what india has.

It could matter who gets an superpower navy first. Chinas has no need for any Indian contracts, they are busy enough over the next 10-15 years.

India has a deal with the US, so they have the assistance of the worlds largest and most powerful Navy... and all they need to do is buy worn out old American cast offs and crap and be a good little boy.

India does not need a super power navy.

Neither does China really.

Russia is not even going to get a super power navy... at best three carriers, 8-12 cruisers, 24 odd destroyers, and maybe 12 frigates and maybe 40-50 corvettes plus perhaps four large helicopter carriers and 6 to 8 smaller Ivan Gren based ones... the four big ones for the Northern and Pacific Fleets and the 6 to 8 smaller ones for the Baltic and Black Sea and perhaps forward deployed to Tartus or Cuba or where ever...

Lol. Indian navy is a mix of boats from different countries, specially when it comes to weaponery and radars/electronics which means it suffers the same stupid issues as their air force.

In terms of numbers you can compare them with a small country like Italy or Germany.

Chinese may have copies and for sure shittier systems than the west/russia but at least their ship can work togather and they have lot of them which is better than having what india has.

HATO has a mix of boats from different countries and with different weapons and electronics and sensors... I guess they can't work together either?

GarryB wrote:

It could matter who gets an superpower navy first. Chinas has no need for any Indian contracts, they are busy enough over the next 10-15 years.

India has a deal with the US, so they have the assistance of the worlds largest and most powerful Navy... and all they need to do is buy worn out old American cast offs and crap and be a good little boy.

India does not need a super power navy.

Neither does China really.

Russia is not even going to get a super power navy... at best three carriers, 8-12 cruisers, 24 odd destroyers, and maybe 12 frigates and maybe 40-50 corvettes plus perhaps four large helicopter carriers and 6 to 8 smaller Ivan Gren based ones... the four big ones for the Northern and Pacific Fleets and the 6 to 8 smaller ones for the Baltic and Black Sea and perhaps forward deployed to Tartus or Cuba or where ever...

But its basicly what China is aiming for. And im not so sure if the US will help India if the shit hits the fan, you need to be a full NATO member for that.

And Russia.... 3 carriers, 12 cruisers, 4 helo carriers, 8 Ivan Gren. Yeah we are talking about the very far future here. 2040-2050 if they r lucky. I will retire around 2045 my self

But its basicly what China is aiming for.

The word but in that response is redundant... I said they don't need one, not that they weren't trying to build one.

And im not so sure if the US will help India if the shit hits the fan, you need to be a full NATO member for that.

I am expecting to see a US sized boot print on Indias ass pushing it under the bus, but India is a country and they have two eyes and two ears and one mouth of their own...

I have said before on this forum if they want to spend billions on US weapons to fight a war that doesn't need to be fought, it is not my problem what they waste their money on.

And Russia.... 3 carriers, 12 cruisers, 4 helo carriers, 8 Ivan Gren. Yeah we are talking about the very far future here. 2040-2050 if they r lucky. I will retire around 2045 my self

And when you get there you will be amazed at how quickly it all happened.

The thing is that real life does happen, but if you live your life that way you will end up living in someone elses spare room till you can find something better...

Russia is doing what we call planning where you look at where you want to be and then you think about all the things you need to do to get there.

China has the money to do it as fast as they want, and that is fine, I think it is great for them to be doing that... when it comes to planning they are not fools... they will have worked out getting the west to build factory infrastructure in their country, but not just that... access to markets, trade and transport links... these are things only the west could have done for them because they control most trade and transport links and who sells and who does not sell to their markets.

But they know they are going to get kicked off the nipple pretty soon because the way the west works is to use you till you start to develop and then cut you off and move on so you don't grow to big to become a rival and therefore a threat (to the west they are the same thing).

And i understand India is taking this chance to do exactly what China did, but I don't see them making that obvious mistake twice... it is probably too late for them anyway... you can't keep printing money and also using money as a weapon... or you end up with a huge pile of money no one wants or will accept.

Chinas plan is simply to build a military force that is global... which means it has to be their navy... and the purpose is to defend their interests in trade and commerce around the world.

The west does not realise, but the rest of the world is huge and in need of serious development and has plenty of resources and material China or Russia or India for that matter could use in return... the thing is that unlike with western trade the rest of the world makes a decent profit and gets to grow and develop, raising them from where they are now to a better position... something the west claimed centuries ago that free market trade would achieve, but that is nonsense of course.

With their sanctions we and attempts to stop deals like nord stream ii we can see how the US treats free market commerce... they bend and break rules and use force to get their way to benefit only themselves... that is how it has always been, but it was normally hidden.

China knows that, Russia knows that, so they are preparing for a situation where there is no trade with the west at all... so they need those gunboats, but obviously for Russia it makes no sense going bankrupt getting them.

George1 wrote:Satellite image of two Indian aircraft carriers, INS Vikrant under construction and operating INS Vikramaditya at the Cochin Shipyard Limited.



https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2278557.html

The two different images doesn't look scaled properly.
INS Vikrant is at Cochin Shipyard where as the VKD (Indian Navy's call for Vikramaditya) is berthed at its home base, Karwar.

walle83 wrote:The question is what carrier will enter service first, The INS Vikrant or the Chinese Type-003.

As things are going I would say its neck by neck. The 003 probably will be launched in late 2021 and ready for trails by spring 2022.

I will tilt towards the Type-003 entering service first.

INS Vikrant is the first of the carrier built in India, by the most experienced and efficient yard, who earned its reputation building civilian ships for foreign & local customers and delivering it on time.
The delay in the INS Vikrant has to be completely attributed to non-shipyard related incompetence in various Govt departments, including the Navy, except for the COVID19 related delays since March 2020. The same might hold true for the completion of the sea trials as well, in addition to the fine tuning during sea trials.