AWACS/Command post aircrafts of RuAF

GarryB wrote:Well that video a while back showing a Flanker scaring away an F-15 proved it to me... the light (white/blue) coloured Flanker practically disappeared in the clouds and sky, while the dark F-15 grey made it easily visible at a similar distance... that dark grey colour is just shit when it comes to camo.

If a pilote fighter is in range to spot an awacs with its eyes then it had it on its radar long before.

If your enemy is going to colour their aircraft to improve their visibility and make them visible from greater distances then improvements in IIR and optical seekers is really going to pay off for them... because a long range lofted shot with an R-37M is going to be coming down from quite a steep angle so the dark grey smudge against the white clouds below it will be easy to target... it wont even need to use its active radar seeker to find the target... just its passive IIR and optical seeker can do the job totally passively.

The vast majority of air to air kills are where the target does not even know they are under attack...

They'll be lucky even if a dozen can be sold abroad. India is mentioned, as only she can pay at least $230M or its equivalent per plane.

I doubt they would be that keen to export them for a while... they will likely have enough issues producing enough for their own needs let alone worrying about export options.

Of course a large order from India that includes some transport aircraft and some inflight refuelling tankers could justify setting up new production facilities, but I don't see India being willing to spend the sort of money that would make it profitable.

George1 wrote:7th A-50 aircraft to the A-50U level will be handed over to the customer in 2021

 As part of the Russian Aerospace Forces, all combat aircraft of the A-50 series are part of the aviation unit deployed at the Ivanovo-Severny airfield, which since 2010 has been called the aviation group of the combat use of long-range radar detection aircraft of the 610th center of combat use and retraining of flight crews (aviation personnel - transport aviation) of the 4th State Center for Aviation Personnel Training and Military Testing.

The unit now has 13 A-50 airplanes and six A-50U airplanes, not counting several A-50 airplanes in storage.

Russian Air Force (VKS) possesses a total of 22 A-50 aircraft, including those stored.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3590325.html

No , anyway, there are not 19 A-50 in service

Since a lot of years ago the AWACS unit , the 144º SDRLO was downsized to singe squadron, about 9 or 10 as much

Six have been modernized to A-50U (Nº33,37,41,42,45,47) and other 3 was in service in last years (43,50,51) , probably to be modernized soon
You only need to check the list of A-50 in service in last years, you will not find different airplanes flying since a lot of time ago:
https://russianplanes.net/st/Ilushin/A-50

Also Nº52 RF-93953  have been sent to Taganrog and is being transformed in one A-100LL for test  https://russianplanes.net/regs/RF-93953

Other 15 A-50 are in reserve since a lot of years ago at Ivanovo and repair plants pf Taganrog (ARZ 325) and Staraya Russa (ARZ 123)

Premier on Victory Day: A-100 plane will fly over Moscow
The machine is considered one of the most secret in the Military Space Forces.

Aleksey Ramm Alexey Kozachenko Bogdan Stepovoy

An A-100 Premier long-range radar detection (DRLO) aircraft will appear in the sky over Moscow on Victory Day. The fundamental decision on this at the Ministry of Defense has already been made. It is being discussed whether the A-100 will fly this year or whether the debut will be transferred to the next - this will depend on the test results, several sources in the military have told Izvestia. Premier is one of the most secret cars in the VKS arsenal, and its participation in the parade will be the first public demonstration. The reconnaissance aircraft was made on the basis of the heavy military transport Il-76MD-90A and had already received the respectful nickname “All-seeing eye” in the army.

The A-100 is on trial in the 929th State Flight Test Center of the Chkalov Defense Ministry, located in Akhtubinsk. It is planned that on the eve of the holiday he will be transferred to Taganrog, from where he will make his first flight over the capital.

The appearance of the A-100 in the sky over Moscow this year can be compensated for by the absence of the assault assault self-propelled artillery “Lotus” at the Victory parade, which was planned to appear earlier. “Lotos” will be shown to Muscovites and guests of the capital in a year - on the 75th anniversary of the Victory.

Full article
https://iz.ru/863782/aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko-bogdan-stepovoi/premer-na-dne-pobedy-nad-moskvoi-proletit-samolet-100

After "Premiere": for the VKS will develop a new "flying radar"

The aircraft will be created on the basis of a civilian airliner Tu-214

May 5, 2019 00:01
Aleksey Ramm Bogdan Stepovoy

For the Aerospace Forces (VKS) of Russia, a new long-range radar detection (AWAC) aircraft will be developed. This “lightweight” - cheaper and more economical - version of the “flying radar” A-100 “Premier”. The platform for the novelty will be the Tu-214 airliner. Our country with its large territory and extended borders needs a sufficiently large fleet of AWACS. The new development will quickly provide VKS such aircraft. In addition, this "flying radar" has a good export potential.


The project of a new “flying radar” on the basis of a civilian airliner Tu-214 has already been submitted to the Main Command Space Center and received approval, told Izvestia several sources in the Ministry of Defense. The choice in favor of the "carcass" is not accidental, since its glider is considered universal and well known to military pilots. In particular, about 20 modifications were created on its basis: passenger, cargo, retransmission and other vehicles. There is a special version of the reconnaissance aircraft Tu-214R and Tu-214ON for the performance of observation flights within the framework of the agreement on open skies.

The new car will use, albeit in a “lightweight” form, the radar and part of the electronics of the A-100 Premier aircraft, one of the most secret machines in the VKS arsenal, which was made on the basis of the heavy military transport IL-76MD-90A and Already received in the army respectful nickname "All-seeing eye." At present, the Premier is on trial in the 929th State Flight Test Center of the Defense Ministry named after Chkalov.

New DRLO aircraft on the basis of the Tu-214 will be able to control the air, land and sea space within a radius of several hundred kilometers, the machine is able to control large groups, provide information for fighter, bomber and attack aircraft. The aircraft is equipped with a multi-position radar with two phased antenna arrays, all information received by radars is digitized, processed directly on board, and immediately transmitted to participants in a combat operation. There is on the plane and a system to counter enemy electronic warfare.

The “flying radar” Tu-214 will well complement the A-50, A50U and A-100 Premier, made on the basis of the IL-76 transport. Moreover, the “carcass” has its advantages over the Ilyushin machines, according to military expert Anton Lavrov.

“The DRLO Tu-214 aircraft will most likely have a greater range and flight duration, which is very important,” Anton Lavrov told Izvestia. - The civilian version made non-stop flights Moscow-Vladivostok without refueling, which the IL-76 cannot do. It is also important that the Tu-214 is much cheaper to maintain and operate. Russia with its large territory simply needs a fleet of long-range radar detection aircraft - the new model will allow it to grow.

https://iz.ru/872566/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/posle-premera-dlia-vks-razrabotaiut-novyi-letaiushchii-radar

Finally!!!

I never understood why they insisted on wasting perfectly good heavy cargo planes on stuff like this when airliners are more than good enough.

This should help with getting cargo fleet in order.

Hopefully they do the same with refueling and ASW aircraft.

Tu-214 got a nice second military life. Not surprising the caracteristics of this plane makes it wonderful.

Test of radars against f-22 in Syria should have been very good to make a smaller AWACS while most armies are getting f-35.

Tu-204 wikipedia wrote:The Tu-214 is essentially a higher gross weight variant of the Tu-204, being fitted with extra fuel tanks and structural adjustments to deal with the heavier gross weight. For this reason, the Russian government prefers to use it as the platform upon which all further modifications for the 'Special Mission' variants will be based. Some of the special mission variants are disclosed to be capable of a non-stop 10,000-kilometre flight range

So it can fly around 10h in the air. Very good.

The use the Il-76 as AWACS and tanker because it can start/land from rough runways. Which is good for the Arctis and Siberia. For all the rest and from good equipped airfields in Siberia the Tu-214 is great.

They used the Il-76 because it could operate from a much wider range of airfields than civilian airliners normally used in the role, so they will likely continue to use it, but it certainly makes sense to have different platforms for different roles... certainly for export a smaller lighter aircraft would probably sell rather well and that would also promote the commercial sale of that aircraft for other roles like vip transport etc etc.

It is the same with inflight refuelling aircraft... for strategic aircraft larger faster tankers are better in many ways, while for smaller tactical aircraft a smaller lighter aircraft would be a good idea too.

With these new photonic radars the performance increase might make a relatively small dedicated AWACS platform rather more capable than previously possible too.

Russia's "doomsday aircraft" Il-80 and Il-82 to be modernised


NIZHNY NOVGOROD, may 30. /TASS/. Experimental design work (OKR) for modernization of airborne command post (WCP) on the basis of the Il-80 and Il-82 is completed, work is underway to modify existing aircraft to the new standard, said to journalists on Thursday Deputy defense Minister of Russia Alexei Krivoruchko.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6489463

Latest on the A-100

The newest aircraft airborne early warning and control (AWACS) A-100 "Premier" on Friday made another flight in the framework of the test program. About it reports "RIA Novosti" the statement of the General Director of the concern "VEGA" Vyacheslav Mikheyev.



Mikheyev in an interview with the Agency said that tests of a multifunctional aviation complex radar surveillance and targeting A-100 "Premier" are proceeding as scheduled, without disruption. The plane on Friday made another flight, in which the tested aircraft systems and onboard equipment.

The test program is implemented in accordance with the schedule. We continue to get the desired results and characteristics

he said, without disclosing details of the tests.

https://topwar.ru/160596-novejshij-samolet-drlo-a-100-premer-sovershil-ocherednoj-polet.html

GarryB wrote:Carrier based AWACS would be even more portable and useful...

Do ISR and AEW&CS aircraft serve any purpose these days ? Given how vast, extensive Russia's satellite network is frankly Airborne ISR,AEW&CS aircraft is not at all required.

Maybe countries in Asia, Mid East, Africa who do not have the same extensive sat network that Russia has should procure ISR, AEW&CS aircraft.

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:Carrier based AWACS would be even more portable and useful...

Do ISR and AEW&CS aircraft serve any purpose these days ? Given how vast, extensive Russia's satellite network is frankly Airborne ISR,AEW&CS aircraft is not at all required.

Maybe countries in Asia, Mid East, Africa who do not have the same extensive sat network that Russia has should procure ISR, AEW&CS aircraft.

Satelittes can't track airplanes in real time.

Good intel and information on a battlefield is critical... in fact of more value than almost anything else.

Drones and cruise missiles shot down over Syria. Drones and cruise missiles all hit their targets in Saudi Arabia. Both had extensive air defence systems and equipment, but one didn't see the threat until it was too late and didn't hit a single target despite all those US satellites everywhere... those same satellites that didn't see 11/9 and didn't see the Iraqi invasion of Kuwaite, or the Russian armoured formations in the Ukraine.

Satellites are nice and can be of tremendous use, but you should not rely on them exclusively...

I mean the US has extensive satellite coverage of most of the planet but they still buy JSTARS aircraft and sea and land based AWACS platforms... and a net centric system actually benefits from more sources of information rather than reducing the requirement.

These new photonic radars might be tiny and very light and mean a relatively small aircraft like an Il-114 or Il-112 could be used with enormous range performance.

An Il-476 has a normal payload capacity of about 60 tons with full fuel, so with the radar and all the electronics and of course all the operators and screens etc etc, the Il-478 or A-100 might have 40-50 tons of radar equipment and electronics processing capability.

If this new photonic radar is 2-3 tons then a much smaller aircraft could carry the equipment... conversely you could use a bigger aircraft like an Il-276 with a 20 ton payload and just carry extra fuel so it has the flight range of an A-100 but is a much smaller cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate aircraft with better radar performance.

It would mean a cat launched carrier based aircraft could have enormous performance capability without needing to be too expensive.

Of course as I have repeatedly mentioned, an airship would be the best overall solution because of its size and durability... its only weakness would be speed.

But on all other counts it would be ideal.

Isos wrote:Satelittes can't track airplanes in real time.

Wait what ? Then what if Flight Radar doing https://www.flightradar24.com/

Besides Russian sats have regularly tracked even B-2, F-117 and F-22.

This site uses the transponders of the planes. They send data about the plane and its position to ground control.

GarryB wrote:An Il-476 has a normal payload capacity of about 60 tons with full fuel, so with the radar and all the electronics and of course all the operators and screens etc etc, the Il-478 or A-100 might have 40-50 tons of radar equipment and electronics processing capability.

Correct me if I'm wrong but basically IL-476 and other ISR aircraft (Western analogs included) carry only 4 types of sensors :

1. Electro-optical imagers (EO/IR),
2. Radar (including ultrawideband, UWB), Laser radar,
3. Seismic/Acoustic monitoring,
4. Ad hoc wireless sensor nodes (WSN)

No other sensors apart from these, isn't it ?

GarryB wrote: the Il-478 or A-100 might have 40-50 tons of radar equipment and electronics processing capability.

It wouldn't be able to fly very long if the loadout weighed that much. The must important factor that makes a good AWACs aircraft is loiter time.

It wouldn't be able to fly very long if the loadout weighed that much. The must important factor that makes a good AWACs aircraft is loiter time.

Yes... I didn't know so that was just an estimate... but old technology radar and electronics were heavy and not particularly capable... it is getting much lighter and much more compact and there is talk of a generational shift in radar technology that might dramatically change things too.

AWACS aircraft are expensive, so if radar in satellites could do the same job why are there so many AWACS platforms in service...

Wait what ? Then what if Flight Radar doing https://www.flightradar24.com/

Besides Russian sats have regularly tracked even B-2, F-117 and F-22.

As mentioned, transponder charting in international airspace is to prevent collisions and problems, and the same for shipping too, but in a war zones most military platforms will opt out and not appear on civilian tracking systems like that, and indeed look at that radar site... where are all the drones?

Does it show military helicopters and drones too?

For a military force you need to see everything and having a platform with you that can point out things that need closer evaluation and perhaps elimination then that is what you need.

A satellite is either geostationary or it is in moving orbital position. Geostationary means it sits above the equator going around the earth once every 24 hours so it hovers in one place in the sky. If you have sky TV or some satellite TV service then you point your satellite dish at the satellite and it remains in place... it doesn't move... such satellites are very high up and their coverage near the poles is ineffective. Their coverage in mountainous areas is poor too because more often than not there is a mountain in the way unless you are on top of the highest mountain at the time.

For satellites that have a much lower orbit and give a much better view of things on earth they orbit the planet in about 90 minutes so they will be overhead for about 5-6 minutes and then they can't see you for about 85 minutes till they come back over and they wont come over on the same path... because the world is spinning so the next time they might only be visible for 2 minutes and then not be visible for a day or two... unless you have a huge number of satellites... and even then small drones will be invisible to them anyway.

AWACS and JSTAR type aircraft offer persistence and resolution that satellites can't compare with and in the near future their sensors are just going to get better and better...

No other sensors apart from these, isn't it ?

Who knows what they are carrying.... and even if they don't carry anything else... isn't that enough?

Anything you can put in a half a ton satellite you can put in a large plane or airship.

Hell a 500m long airship could probably have enough solar panels to operate without any other power source except in polar regions in winter...

A 1MW nuclear battery used to power that laser could be carried... hell put three of them on board... one at the front and one in the middle and one at the back and when there is no sunlight they could charge the batteries and convert water ballast to hydrogen gas when needed... a gas turbine running on hydrogen gas or just hydrogen fuel cells could be used otherwise to generate electricity to run electric motors to move the airship around and power the radars and sensors at night and during the day solar power could run everything... hell there would probably be a huge electricity surplus... having a huge flat solar panel surface on top you could operate electric UAVs that take off and land on the top of the airship... the airship could be wing shaped to make it more aerodynamic and also greatly increase the upper surface area for solar panels.

You could use solar panels optimised for UV frequency light which occurs 24 hours a day, so it could even generate power at night, though not as much as during the day of course.

Most of its time it will be operating above the clouds so max power to those solar panels...

GarryB wrote:A satellite is either geostationary or it is in moving orbital position. Geostationary means it sits above the equator going around the earth once every 24 hours so it hovers in one place in the sky. If you have sky TV or some satellite TV service then you point your satellite dish at the satellite and it remains in place... it doesn't move... such satellites are very high up and their coverage near the poles is ineffective. Their coverage in mountainous areas is poor too because more often than not there is a mountain in the way unless you are on top of the highest mountain at the time.

Fair enough Garry.

My point was about what Isos said initially

satellites cannot track aircraft in real time

.

Why can't they ? Russia, China, US has hundreds of satellites in space.

Why can't these extensive satellite networks track aircraft in real time ?

Why can't these extensive satellite networks track aircraft in real time ?

Try finding an aircraft on Google Earth and you will see why.

Satelittes are not even used to track carriers and you think they would track a small f-16 ?

They can however watch airbases and see if an attack is being prepared in war time.

Isos wrote:
Try finding an aircraft on Google Earth and you will see why.

Google Earth does not feature real-time visuals. It never did.

jhelb wrote:

Isos wrote:
Try finding an aircraft on Google Earth and you will see why.

Google Earth does not feature real-time visuals. It never did.

But you have thousand of civilian planes in the air everytime around the world. Find one in google earth if satelitte can track them.

Why can't they ? Russia, China, US has hundreds of satellites in space.

Space is the ultimate high ground... then the radar is on or near the ground any hill or mountain range block any signal so finding the enemies radar and looking for ground features that block that radar means you can plot flight paths where a thousand ground radars wont see you.

Another issue is that search radars and tracking radars are two different things... a satellite might detect a target, but what are you going to do then... as it sweeps over the ground it will have hundreds of thousands of objects in the air from civilian aircraft to birds as well as military aircraft... how is it going to process that information and every 6 minutes it is over a completely new piece of airspace a thousand km square and moving... as it races past your satellite has to detect and identify thousands perhaps tens of thousands of objects, and then track them for a few seconds to work out their speed and direction... it is a nightmare.

What is also a nightmare... the radar waves you are using need to travel hundreds of kms down to the target and be reflected hundreds of kms back up... at a bare minimum these satellites will be operating at over 1,000km altitude so the tracking of these tiny targets like drones with very small RCS needs to be done over 2,000km distances at the bare minimum... at that altitude the field of view will be over 1,000 square kilometres... likely much much more than that... there wont be time to scan that space and process the information before you have moved to the next zone or area that needs to be scanned... and what sort of power level will this radar achieve... a radar in the best modern fighter radar today has about a 20KW beam and it can detect fighters at 300-400km... how much energy would a satellite need to scan for drones or bird sized objects from 2,000km?

Can you start to see why we are saying it is not practical.

Don't get me wrong... they do have radar on satellites... but the Liana system is designed to detect aircraft carriers... can you see the difference? Apart from islands there are not many objects in the sea the size of aircraft carriers and they are fairly slow moving things as well.

Sure there are oil tankers and gas tankers, but over all not enough to overwhelm your system like objects in the air with drone level RCS like birds.

Another factor is that the Soviets and the Russians knew how many aircraft carriers they were looking for so once they located them it was just a case of marking their positions and checking back occasionally to update their position on a big map. Can you imagine trying to do that with drones?

They can however watch airbases and see if an attack is being prepared in war time.

Actually spotting preparations for war... the putting together forces, the collecting up weapons and ammo and fuel for something big will warn you something is up long before the first attack wave lines up on the runway for takeoff...

But you have thousand of civilian planes in the air everytime around the world. Find one in google earth if satelitte can track them.

My understanding is that Google Maps uses multiple images of the same place taken over a period of time to remove things from their images like cars or people or aircraft. Not possible from Streetview of course and some people used to follow around the vans so they could be in streetview in multiple places at once...

But satellites tracking aircraft generally is not really practical.

Could be used for tracking one individual in movies like enemy of the state, or those cop shows where they use helicopters to track suspects, but even then not infaliable. (note the best way to escape would not be to head out into empty areas with no people, but the opposite... head in to big crowds and get lost there...