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Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK
George1- Posts : 18510
Points : 19013
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
Points : 13503
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Rumor confirmed, more Kilo-class submarines will be built after 6 for Pacific Fleet
https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%B824/
ult- Posts : 837
Points : 877
Join date : 2015-02-20
Volkhov has been launched.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
Points : 13503
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Excellent news
Novosibirsk yesterday and today this bad boy
Hopefully they keep this pace and double down on Kilos while production lines are hot, they need those numbers and going is good
George1- Posts : 18510
Points : 19013
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
GarryB wrote:The Lada sub is a new generation sub... the difference between the Lada and the upgraded kilos is like the difference between the Su-57 and the Su-35... for many general duties the Su-35 (Kilo) will do a good enough job, but for the really tricky or difficult missions then there is no question which sub you would choose to take.
Once Kilos undergo the mid life upgrade will it be possible to retrofit them with AIP?
Are there any such precedent anywhere in Europe where submarines that were devoid of an AIP were fitted with one later?
wilhelm- Posts : 347
Points : 351
Join date : 2014-12-09
The Swedish Sodermanland class were originally Vastergotland class subs that were fitted with AIP 15 years after they were originally launched.
It is worth bearing in mind that modern Swedish subs are designed and constructed in such a modular way from the start that new hull extensions or inserts are relatively easy and have been "pre- planned".
I doubt this is the case with the Kilo class.
Not saying it is impossible, but perhaps not as easy as with the predestined nature of the Swedish subs.
It is worth bearing in mind that modern Swedish subs are designed and constructed in such a modular way from the start that new hull extensions or inserts are relatively easy and have been "pre- planned".
I doubt this is the case with the Kilo class.
Not saying it is impossible, but perhaps not as easy as with the predestined nature of the Swedish subs.
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
wilhelm wrote:The Swedish Sodermanland class were originally Vastergotland class subs that were fitted with AIP 15 years after they were originally launched.
It is worth bearing in mind that modern Swedish subs are designed and constructed in such a modular way from the start that new hull extensions or inserts are relatively easy and have been "pre- planned".
I doubt this is the case with the Kilo class.
Not saying it is impossible, but perhaps not as easy as with the predestined nature of the Swedish subs.
Thanks. What about German and French submarines like Type 209 and Scorpene. i understand they do not have AIPs. So can they be fitted with AIPs ?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
Points : 13503
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Kilos are good enough as is for now
They just need to keep building them while the production lines are hot, lots of replacements are needed currently
Isos- Posts : 11593
Points : 11561
Join date : 2015-11-06
They have nuclear subs for long range missions. No need for AIP.
Improved kilos proved to be very good in Syrian deployment. They just need lot of them and not spend another 100 million per sub to give them an AIP system that would be useless as they will have Yasen and Husky in production and in service in good numbers.
AIP is overrated and very expensive. All the navies but Ru, US and Chinese have very few ships. They can't oblige a group of Kilo to stay underwater and spend all the oxygen since they have few assets to cover a large area, find the subs and chase them. Most of the time the kilo will have enough time to go bellow the surface and destroy enemy ships.
I would rather add a remote controled turret with MANPADS or pantsir missiles to destroy enemy choppers. Then the ship is an easy target since a kilo carries 533mm torpedoes while most of new ships carry small torpedoes.
Improved kilos proved to be very good in Syrian deployment. They just need lot of them and not spend another 100 million per sub to give them an AIP system that would be useless as they will have Yasen and Husky in production and in service in good numbers.
AIP is overrated and very expensive. All the navies but Ru, US and Chinese have very few ships. They can't oblige a group of Kilo to stay underwater and spend all the oxygen since they have few assets to cover a large area, find the subs and chase them. Most of the time the kilo will have enough time to go bellow the surface and destroy enemy ships.
I would rather add a remote controled turret with MANPADS or pantsir missiles to destroy enemy choppers. Then the ship is an easy target since a kilo carries 533mm torpedoes while most of new ships carry small torpedoes.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
The Swedish Sodermanland class were originally Vastergotland class subs that were fitted with AIP 15 years after they were originally launched.
It is worth bearing in mind that modern Swedish subs are designed and constructed in such a modular way from the start that new hull extensions or inserts are relatively easy and have been "pre- planned".
I doubt this is the case with the Kilo class.
Not saying it is impossible, but perhaps not as easy as with the predestined nature of the Swedish subs.
Subs are compartmentalised and modular to a degree from the outset... if you want a Kilo to be fitted with vertical launch tubes they don't shift everything around to make room... they add a vertical launch tube section for the purpose... and would do the same to incorporate AIP systems too.
Isos- Posts : 11593
Points : 11561
Join date : 2015-11-06
Subs are compartmentalised and modular to a degree from the outset... if you want a Kilo to be fitted with vertical launch tubes they don't shift everything around to make room... they add a vertical launch tube section for the purpose... and would do the same to incorporate AIP systems too.
Kilo has a double hull. There is space for an AIP btw the two maybe.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
Points : 5912
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
During high optempo, they can use 2x the # of SSKs & to ensure that at least half of them stays underwater w/o snorkeling at all times.
The areas they normally would operate in r not that big so IMO the AIP isn't going to make a big difference.
The areas they normally would operate in r not that big so IMO the AIP isn't going to make a big difference.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Kilo has a double hull. There is space for an AIP btw the two maybe.
The gap between the inner and outerhull is not suitable to place propulsion systems...
You could put external weapon tubes there that are reloaded in port, but not a great place to put much else.
Isos- Posts : 11593
Points : 11561
Join date : 2015-11-06
GarryB wrote:Kilo has a double hull. There is space for an AIP btw the two maybe.
The gap between the inner and outerhull is not suitable to place propulsion systems...
You could put external weapon tubes there that are reloaded in port, but not a great place to put much else.
They can add oxygene tank to add some days of underwater operation. I think german subs have such solution with an external hydrogen tank.
Anyway they really don't need that since they have SSNs and it would only increase the cost. For exxport however it will need to be a standard featur to compete with european and asian designs.
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
Isos wrote:For exxport however it will need to be a standard featur to compete with european and asian designs.
In all likelihood Kilos that have been exported to Algeria, India, Iran, Vietnam are not double hulled. They don't have AIPs either. Since 6 Kilos have already been ordered by Russian Navy I hope Russia develops a state of the art AIP, ASAP.
Sweden's A26 probably has the best AIP in business.
walle83- Posts : 976
Points : 986
Join date : 2016-11-13
Location : Sweden
jhelb wrote:
Sweden's A26 probably has the best AIP in business.
Will have anyway, they are still in construction fase.
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
Isos wrote:AIP is overrated and very expensive. All the navies but Ru, US and Chinese have very few ships. They can't oblige a group of Kilo to stay underwater and spend all the oxygen since they have few assets to cover a large area, find the subs and chase them. Most of the time the kilo will have enough time to go bellow the surface and destroy enemy ships.
AIP overrated...why? It is necessary for diesel submarines. If countries that procured Kilos like Vietnam, India or Iran are up against the PLA Navy or the US Navy they will be easily detected if their Kilos do not have AIP.
An AIP costs USD 100 million? Which company's AIP are you referring to?Isos wrote:They just need lot of them and not spend another 100 million per sub to give them an AIP system
walle83 wrote:Will have anyway, they are still in construction fase.
Still under construction? But SAAB did get this technology when they acquired Kockums, isn't it?
Isos- Posts : 11593
Points : 11561
Join date : 2015-11-06
AIP overrated...why? It is necessary for diesel submarines. If countries that procured Kilos like Vietnam, India or Iran are up against the PLA Navy or the US Navy they will be easily detected if their Kilos do not have AIP.
They will be destroyed anyway. AIP or not.
An AIP costs USD 100 million? Which company's AIP are you referring to?
Difference in cost btw exporr kilo and proposed lada with AIP. Kilo is already ~400 million $. Western sub even more.
marat- Posts : 352
Points : 348
Join date : 2015-04-26
jhelb wrote:Isos wrote:For exxport however it will need to be a standard featur to compete with european and asian designs.
In all likelihood Kilos that have been exported to Algeria, India, Iran, Vietnam are not double hulled. They don't have AIPs either. Since 6 Kilos have already been ordered by Russian Navy I hope Russia develops a state of the art AIP, ASAP.
Sweden's A26 probably has the best AIP in business.
Where did you get idea that some kilos are not duble hulled? You are not talking about lego but about submarine.
One ore two hulls are essential feature of whole submarine design.
kvs- Posts : 15840
Points : 15975
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
AIP is a great marketing gimmick and serves the needs of countries that cannot afford layered defense. Russia does not need AIP in
its subs since it will not send them on missions without additional support that will offset the lack of AIP. Vietnam, etc, cannot
do this so for them AIP is more relevant.
The western AIP equipped diesel-electric subs all cost around $2 billion US each. Russia has been selling 636.6 subs for under $400
million. If it can add an AIP feature for even $400 million, it will still make Russian subs way cheaper and will not cost Russia any
global market share.
I suspect the delay for Russia with AIP deployment is due to the way Russia designs military hardware. It designs it not for export
but for its own needs first. This has resulted in a 1) a lack of AIP development for a long time and 2) overly serious AIP development
today. I bet that Japanese and the rest of the western AIP systems were pushed to market faster since they are lower grade solutions
with much less "personal investment". This path is rather late for Russia to follow, so it may as well develop its diesel chemistry
based solution instead of dealing with the cheaper hydrolysis options.
its subs since it will not send them on missions without additional support that will offset the lack of AIP. Vietnam, etc, cannot
do this so for them AIP is more relevant.
The western AIP equipped diesel-electric subs all cost around $2 billion US each. Russia has been selling 636.6 subs for under $400
million. If it can add an AIP feature for even $400 million, it will still make Russian subs way cheaper and will not cost Russia any
global market share.
I suspect the delay for Russia with AIP deployment is due to the way Russia designs military hardware. It designs it not for export
but for its own needs first. This has resulted in a 1) a lack of AIP development for a long time and 2) overly serious AIP development
today. I bet that Japanese and the rest of the western AIP systems were pushed to market faster since they are lower grade solutions
with much less "personal investment". This path is rather late for Russia to follow, so it may as well develop its diesel chemistry
based solution instead of dealing with the cheaper hydrolysis options.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
Points : 5912
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
Exactly, & they didn't want to delay construction of Kilos or waste time on developing the Lada needed to boost their SSK #s in the BSF, BaltF, NF & PF.Russia does not need AIP in its subs since it will not send them on missions without additional support that will offset the lack of AIP.
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
Isos wrote:Difference in cost btw exporr kilo and proposed lada with AIP. Kilo is already ~400 million $. Western sub even more.
Yes, Western subs are priced at $900 million and above.
My question was why would you peg the cost of an AIP at $100 million? So if Russia is exporting Kilos at $400mill a pop your are suggesting that the AIP itself costs $100 million?
Then Western AIPs probably cost $300-$400 million a pop.
Isos- Posts : 11593
Points : 11561
Join date : 2015-11-06
jhelb wrote:Isos wrote:Difference in cost btw exporr kilo and proposed lada with AIP. Kilo is already ~400 million $. Western sub even more.
Yes, Western subs are priced at $900 million and above.
My question was why would you peg the cost of an AIP at $100 million? So if Russia is exporting Kilos at $400mill a pop your are suggesting that the AIP itself costs $100 million?
Then Western AIPs probably cost $300-$400 million a pop.
Because if the kilo is 400 million what would be the price of an export kilo with AIP ? 300 million ? No. It will be easily 500 million. There is the price to make it and the price at which they will sold it.
Westerners takes even more since their subs have nothing more than russian subs but cost almost 2 times more.
owais.usmani- Posts : 1824
Points : 1820
Join date : 2019-03-27
Age : 38
kvs wrote:
The western AIP equipped diesel-electric subs all cost around $2 billion US each.
Which western AIP equipped sub is sold for $2 billion a piece please elaborate.