S-400 SAM for India

There is very little chance of the US imposing sanctions on India... too many potential customers in India to pass up the chance of selling them McDonalds and jeans and Coke.

They will just tell them how naughty they are being and how nice they are to be so forgiving, and don't do it again...

Now the US needs to decide... if it gives India a waiver then all other countries thinking of buying Russians weapons will demand the same and the whole sanction thing will become a joke... but then if it does not give them a waiver that means likely US companies will struggle in India to get contracts... and there are a lot of customers there to fleece of currency...

What a dilemma

If past history is anything to go by the Russians tend to sell better stuff to the Indians than they sell to the Chinese... but I suspect the revenue for all these sales will be going in to making the Russian systems even better.

It is important to point out that the IADS is important too. If not more so...

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:What about the Frigates deal?  That seems to have taken a side line?  It was only recently that India intended to purchase the 4 frigates and build more in their own shipyard in Goa.  Was there any new updates from that?

todays update:

Russia and India have not signed an agreement on the supply of frigates

(saga will continue )
https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20181005/1530066276.html

Good

Russia needs them

Yeah that's probably true. But how is the Indian S-400 better than that of the Chinese ? I suspect they are both getting the same missiles.

Modern systems are software controlled, so it would be pretty easy to have software version China and software version India and indeed software version Turkey.

The software could limit the range at which locks can be achieved, or the number of simultaneous tracks etc etc... obviously if they say they can engage 36 targets at once and guide two missiles at each target then that is what they will do, but there are a lot of areas where they might not allow it to reach the same performance as the hardware actually allows.

And of course if there is a real threat of a US or other serious attack they could send patch updates if it makes sense for Russia to do so.

They probably offer a range of performance options with a range of prices... pay extra and get the better performance.... it is no real skin off the nose of the Russian military if India or China gets almost the same system.

The Russians will have S-500 shortly...

And the earnings generated with all these S-400 sales should allow investment and testing to further improve all their products...

Once China starts placing S 400 in Tibet, Indian Su 30MKI won't be able to make any difference. S-400 in Tibet will seal the entire air space over North & North-East India.

S-400 is a defensive system... there is nothing to stop India from basing their S-400s in the same area and making the same air space a no go for Chinese fighters too...

Why would India want to violate Tibet airspace with Flankers?

Why China and India would fight each other? war is not good for economy and both counties ae developing very fast now? besides Chinese S-400 are covering most important cities or naval bases near Taiwan.

Every time I read about conflict between China and India... I think of China and India both suffering... and America getting a hard on and fanning the flames to fight fight fight fight... from a safe distance of course.

Take what you can... Russians are already out of their attack-heli market, military transport market, soon fighter aircraft as well. Personally don't like Russia providing such valuable infrastructure as nuclear plants to India, in such quantities to boot.... strategically it's better if they stay suckers on fossils as much as possible + their pivot to the U.S is worrisome all the same.

As other countries get drawn in to the consumerism of the west the planet simply cannot 1.2 billion Indians or 1.6 billion Chinese consuming at the rate Americans consume... there simply are not enough resources available to support that... and if they do it on oil and gas and coal we are all fucked.

The Russians are getting new transport aircraft ready for mass production and I suspect the new An-2 would actually sell rather well in India for its short strip performance and low cost operations. Of course now that the Mi-28NM is getting ready for service and the Ka-52 has matured too I think India might think that additional purchases of Apaches might not be their best option... they have a lot of Hips and Hinds and now are making Ka-226Ts too...

The U.S is not in a "bind" of its own making with this law..... stop dreaming. If they can prevent just one deal as a result of this law, (and I'm sure they've gotten a lot of smaller fish already contained), then it's a net benefit.

Except such a law puts into question deals with the US... it so far has not stopped sales of S-400 AFAIK... except possibly Qatar I think, but I really didn't count it as a sale... more a declaration of interest... much like Saudi sales of S-400... which I wont believe until deliveries start...

Of course all this strong arm bullshit has been going on for ever... but normally behind closed doors... I think the real damage this sort of thing is doing is to pride... there was a solid reason why it always used to be behind closed doors but Trump and the current idiots in charge are too stupid to realise it...

Don't remember who said it... but never interrupt your enemy when they are making mistakes...

in CNN possible nothing. Even US landing on the Moon.

Now you are just being absurd....

The US landed on the moon... after the Soviets landed on the moon... in fact first orbit of the moon... first view of the dark side of the moon, first lander, first moon material returned to earth... all the Soviets... all the mericans claim to have done was sent people there first...

Sales of Apache is only tactical one.

The Apache is a capable mature system, but it is expensive for what it is... I suspect it will be rather like F-35s.... the best medicine is to take your bad tasting pill and work out for yourself it is not the cure promised and leaves a real bad taste in your mouth...

You don't become an empire by being stupid. You become an empire because others are stupid strategic failures such as the Russians and Chinese for most of the 20th century - who as the U.S did rightly noted, want to revise such failings (and why the hell not? - basic). Anyway not worth mentioning other stains in history like Japan and Germany.... they can't revise anything freely yet... although the Germans are quite a specimen.... the E.U is their fourth Reich, under U.S supervision - at Russia's expense in many ways.

The US hasn't always been stupid... for quite long periods of its history it has had some very smart people in command... perhaps a bit naive but noble and moral people...

The dicks they have at the moment (and those that lost to them in the last election), are pathetic lightweights in comparison...

If it's clear which points in the bilateral relationship are contentious and which are not... thus helps in solving them.

Relationships are not about ultimatums and demands from one side and total capitulation on the other... the US blaming Russia for poisoning people in the UK and imposing sanctions on them does not solve anything... in fact it makes solving real issues much harder.

Most of the actions taken against Russia have been self defeating of have been turned to Russias advantage by Putin... Russia is making a lot of its own food and is exporting the excess instead of buying food from the EU... the Crimea is now Russian... something that would have never even been considered possible without the western supported coup in the Ukraine...

Basically the US is saying it is in command and no one else had better put their heads up to even try to go their own way... Russia, India, Iran, and China have all said no to this... three of the four are big enough to say no and to go their own way, but with EU support Iran can probably get away with it too.

The only real question is... will the EU realise it does not need to be Americas fawning bitch, and that there could be a place at the table for them if they can get themselves into the chair and don't ask the US for permission...

CAATSA is a good law and weapon for the empire to use once it decided to cross the rubicon with Russia.

This sort of shit always went on... but before it was behind closed doors. Now that it is out in the open the shine has faded on the American smile and I think most countries that believed the bullshit America spins can't pretend to believe it any more... dreams don't make much sense when you analyse them when you are awake... they just seemed good at the time.

The real problem for Russia and China and India was that all the international systems and processes and indeed the economy was based around the US and the west, and the US has done them the service of misusing them as instruments of coercion.... It is much easier for Russia to stop using US dollars when the US starts openly and blatantly using them as a weapon... and it is rather easier for other countries to join them... meaning a multipolar world is vastly more likely in the very near future as more and more countries stop using US dollars to support the US economy...

But the offensive strategy all in all is effective barring kinetic war...... in many respects.

For the US the sanctions are massively counter productive... the US didn't know it had things so good, but now that it has had a tantrum and smashed its own toys it will realise the other kids wont want to play anymore and mommy and daddy aren't going to replace all those toys...

What the US should have done was welcome the Russians into the international community and basically entwined them into the US centric global economy so they would have no alternative and no strength economically to break away and do their own thing... but that ship has sailed... they squandered the time they had and basically made democracy a dirty word in Russia and elsewhere.

Now they have taken it even a step further and actively broken any real links they might have had to influence and suggest to Russia, so Russia really does not need the west to grow now... there are enough countries on this planet for them to trade with and grow with who will respect them and they can respect...

v The Russians are the suckers that have to be on the defensive almost all the time... of their own making of course. They lost the capacity to lead along the way of despair. Future looks better but definitely rocky... at least its not the 90s.

How could a more aggressive Russia solved any of their problems... an aggressive Russia could have started several wars, or simply inflamed situations and not be in the position it is in now... countries don't want deals with the US because on a whim they can say it is not a good deal and walk out of it without any proof you did anything wrong.

In fact lets face it... they withdrew from the agreement with Iran because the US invasion of Iraq and the US interference in Syria to overthrow Assad had led to Iranian forces getting a toe hold in both countries... toe holds they never could have dreamed of without US intervention and destruction in those countries... if I was a religious man I would say it is clearly gods immediate punishment to the US... they dabbled in the Ukraine and Syria and Iraq where they had no business and as a result Russia and Iran have both directly benefited because they did the right thing helping a neighbour in need...

Foreign policy for the U.S is a story of mostly success despite the often highlighted failures.

Over most of its history it has been success because it is no where near the field of play so it is isolated from the damage created... they benefited hugely from WWII and the cold war was a good engine for their economy too, but this post cold war period has been so screwed up by idiots and fools in power in the US it sort of makes you think they are trying to collapse on purpose... so much so their knee jerk reaction has been to try to recreate the cold war again with Russia and China and Iran and North Korea playing the bad guys... and it is just making things worse for them and their allies.

Given their willingness to not revise that and go down fighting for every inch of influence in the world could be a problem for them but if you're in their shoes why would you cede anything to your rivals?

And that is their problem... when you are on top of the heap there is only one way to go... you don't see those under you as fellow human beings... they are just things you can step on to keep your nice expensive shoes out of the mud... the problem is that like any good zombie movie... your numbers are getting smaller and smaller and their numbers only get bigger and bigger... even within the west the number of poor is increasing and the number of super rich is getting smaller and smaller... companies are becoming pyramid schemes where the CEOs make millions and don't pay for anything... they get cars and paid holidays and paid lunches etc etc while the people on the ground floor making the product and selling it to the customers make minimum wage and have to find their own car park if they can... such models are not sustainable... yet that is what we have...

America has stepped on everyone even though it holds the best position... it beats everyone down... there was no anti Russia rhetoric in the 1990s because they were not a threat then... now they are a military threat... they are not even an economic threat but a military threat that could stop the US doing what it wants where it wants, so they are evil... China is an economic threat but not really a military threat yet but they have huge potential in that regard, so they are getting it too.

Perhaps if the US had treated the Russians like partners, and China like partners then they might feel some gratitude or kinship, but the US did everything it could to stifle and stunt its development... how should Russia and China treat the US?

Like a rival?

The thing is that Chinese trading in Africa has been on equal terms and the results have been beneficial to both sides... China wasn't offering charity, but they were offering a partnership where both sides gained and china didn't tell them how to govern or how to behave. Russia is pretty much doing the same thing.

Europe and the US can't help themselves however and refuse support or money for what they see as bad behaviour...

Interesting that I have seen on a few news sites that the US is telling India it will forgive their purchase of the S-400s if India buys tools and production facilities for F-16 fighters...

I am thinking it would be funny if they did it and then got rid of all the US component suppliers and replaced all the american systems in their F-16s and replaced them with Russian components... AL-41 jet engine... the same AESA radar the Russians will use in the MiG-35s joint developed with India to improve performance etc... certain avionic from France and Israel... etc etc.

Or they could order 150 MiG-35s that include a local production contract and really say FU to the US...

Does anyone know about their purchase of AK-103s... are they buying the old 7.62x39mm or the new 7.62x51mm models?

Perhaps even both could be made as each has advantages and disadvantages in different terrains and conditions against different targets.