Iran Air Defense Systems

Iran long range Mobile air defense system Bavar-373, at 39th anniversary of Iraq imposed war parade 2019

crod wrote:

yavar wrote:
Iran MOD development and construction Bavar-373 loange range air defense system and Sayyad-4 missile

Did it say how long it takes to construct and commission? Hope they can get a shed lot and built real quick....they might need them!

i is already commission by Army air defense and they building more units

US Stops U-2 Spy Planes’ Flights After Iran’s Missile Shield Starts Operation

“The US moves in the region are monitored every hour and for instance, the flights of the US U-2 planes which took off from Cyprus and flew twice over the region stopped after Iran made and operated Bavar 373 air defense system and after they found out that the system can track and destroy them (the U-2 planes),” General Taqizadeh said, addressing a ceremony in Tehran on Saturday.

https://www.fort-russ.com/2019/10/us-stops-u-2-spy-planes-flights-after-irans-missile-shield-starts-operation/

i is already commission by Army air defense and they building more units

Yes, what I meant was how long does it take to build a system, test it and supply it to front forces. I assume each system needs to undergo some sort of test audit before being released.

Iran Army air defense downs intruding foreign drone ( UAV) over southern port city of Mahshahr
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/11/08/610687/drone-Iran-Army-Mahshahr

Iran shot it down with Mersad complex, which is domestic complex based on US Hawk.



Drone was flying extreamly low. It looks like someone try to test Iranian air defense in similar scenario as it happened in Abqaiq. But Iranian air defense detect it and shot it down. Now we could compare those two similar events, where Saudi fiasco become even more evident.

Mersad




IADS

A key is mobility and not activating all the defence all the time... when they plan their attacks they will look for gaps and quiet areas to route their missiles and aircraft... having both passive sensors and non emitting launchers in those places where they can be cued to look for threats... even just having a guy living in a mountain range in a hut who spends all day listening for jet engines with a radio to report the presence of a weapon or enemy aircraft so other sensors have warning to look for threats... the key is spotting as early as possible because early warning is the key.

Get enough warning and you could get aircraft airborne which is an ideal way to deal with incoming low flying cruise missiles... you need a proper IADS however so you don't end up shooting down your own aircraft of course.

Damascus gave Iran advanced Israeli missile captured in Syria: Russian media

The Syrian military did not give Russia the advanced Israeli surface-to-air missile that landed inside Syria in July 2018, the Russian aviation publication Avia.Pro reported on Thursday.

Instead, the Russian publication claims that Damascus transferred the Israeli missile to Iran, who, in turn, plans to reverse engineer the projectile.

“As it turned out, the missile did not go to Moscow, but to Iran, which means serious problems for Israel against the backdrop of an escalation of the situation with the Islamic Republic,” Avia.Pro reported.

“In fact, the missile did not go to Russia at all, but to Iran On this day, the Iranian cargo Il-76 was at Damascus International Airport, and could very well have delivered the Israeli missile defense system to Iran to study its capabilities,” they said, citing a military expert.

“Russia’s interest in foreign military technology is quite obvious, but for Iran, this missile allows reveals features of the Israeli missile defense system. If Tehran really took possession of such a missile, then the reliability of Israeli air defense systems is in question, even if the missile defense has been seriously damaged,” they added.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/damascus-gave-iran-advanced-israeli-missile-captured-in-syria-russian-media/


http://avia.pro/news/zahvachennaya-v-sirii-sekretnaya-izrailskaya-raketa-popala-ne-v-rossiyu-v-iran

Iran Army air defense "Guardians of Velayat Sky-98" exercise 2019
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/11/21/611765/Iran-Air-Force-war-games-Semnan

“In fact, the missile did not go to Russia at all, but to Iran On this day, the Iranian cargo Il-76 was at Damascus International Airport, and could very well have delivered the Israeli missile defense system to Iran to study its capabilities,” they said, citing a military expert.

Israeli defence missiles will be of more interest to Iran than to Russia... if Russia launches an attack on Israel then things are probably very dire... but they have weapons like Kh-32 and of course calibre and Onyx and a range of other new weapons on the way... which are unlikely to be changed much based on new information about how Israeli air defence missiles work.

On the other hand Iran would be very much interested in the defences of Israel and of course other countries in the region for her own development of attacking systems.

They already seem to be getting through anyway... of course they could make them more effective at penetrating the defences, but new gyros and other technology from the Israeli missiles like solid rocket fuel technology improvements might help make them lighter and more compact and allow bigger warheads and longer ranges as well as understand better how they work and how to make them less effective...

Of course it could be a double bluff and this might be a fake made up missile fired into enemy territory on purpose to lead them astray... just because you are paranoid doesn't mean the whole world isn't out to get you...

the mention of KS-19 Sa-ir 100mm as an air defence system, isn't such a bad idea, Iran obviously had a load of Ks-19 in storage and with current sanctions and threats from the air from Israel and USA you cant blame them trying to turn an old system into something useful, they did the same with zu-23-2 barrels with the Mesbah-1 and the zu-57-2 with the Bahman system. the only thing i think could have improved the Sa-ir was putting onto a truck chassis with stabilising legs, this would allow a quicker set up and pack up time. with a decent range of 21km and 15km for proximity fuse, 15 rounds a minute self loading system, its not bad, for a system that otherwise would be pretty obsolete in its original format in the anti air role. Being a large calibre the blast radius should be decent, and even if the system didnt take down any aircraft it certainly would be a deterrence to aircraft when suddenly the air around starts to explode with shrapnel. improved rounds could be made including EMP rounds. I see this system could be ideal for drones including swarms of drones. Dones tend to be slower flying and weaker than aircraft, and considering the range of the gun likely destroy the drones before they get anywhere near dropping the bombs/missiles. And being an AA round it would be a much cheaper solution to drones (other than EW). I always think using a more sophisticated missile to take out a drone is a waste, especially if its homemade drone like the terrorists use in Syria. It would have been useful for Iran and Syria if Iran deployed these in idilb, Syria would gain some much needed anti drone air defence and iran could test the system in war time. The other systems mentioned above Mesbah-1 and Bahman would also be useful in syria. I am surprised Iran hasn't produced upgrades for its ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 similar to other upgrades done on the systems normally an upgrades radar and the addition of MANPAD or strela-10 (sa-13).

I know Syria already stocks, Zu-23-2, ZSU-23-4, ZSU-57-2, KS-19, 52-k (85mm), 61-K (37mm) and S-60, and such systems could easily have been upgraded to more effective air defence systems. Although it very likely all were used as ground support systems. We had all seen the zu-23-2 mounted on various chassis and used as ground support. I have seen pictures of ZSU-23-4 stripped of its radar and electronics and some caged armoured attached for use as ground support, also seen, S-60 mounted on trucks and fired ground support as well. In other conflicts seen ZSu-57-2 used in ground support. And although i havent seen 61-k, 52-k, KS-19 used as such i wouldnt be surprised if they too havent been used in ground support. It was quite common during WW2 for large AA guns to be used as direct fire role. The 52-k and KS-19 being 85mm and 100mm could also be used as artillery in similar way the T-12 anti tank gun was used, firing HE-frag rounds could prove lethal to enemy soldiers and soft skinned vehicles. After the war Syria will be cash strapped and we may see older systems being converted and upgraded especially in ground attack and AA systems, while any money it does have to spent of procurement will likely be spend on the airforce and high tech air defence, thats if it has any money to spend as rebuilding the country will be key priority.

video of Sa-ir in action.

The issue with the big guns like the KS-19 is that such a large heavy weapon would have serious problems tracking a target in close and at longer ranges the problems of hitting a free flying target are compounded by time.

Think of it as a sniper... shooting a person to kill them from 100m should be quite straight forward... the distance they can move between when you fire the gun and when the bullet strikes the target will be incredibly short so there are very few things the target could do to evade getting hit... especially if they don't know the bullet is coming.

Now think of that same sniper shooting a target 20km away... with a projectile flight time measured in minutes the obvious problem for the sniper is to anticipate where the target will be in however many seconds his projectile will be in flight towards the target... once you fire even a slight speed up or slow down of the target could create an enormous miss... if the target is walking along a path you might be able to anticipate his position x number of seconds later if he is walking at a steady pace... but what if he hears or sees something that attracts his attention and he stops or slows down or speeds up... for a flying object the problems are multiplied with an added dimension of altitude... it can speed up or slow down or turn left or turn right or climb or descend but it can also do any combination of any or all of those...

The solution is an air burst... predict an intercept point and then set the round to explode there sending a shower of fragments over an enormous area to compensate for any deviation in flight... it would be relatively cheap to implement... certainly cheaper than a shell that manouvers... though to be clear a manouvering round doesn't need to fly loop the loops or be some sort of modern day dog fighter... often just being able to turn a few degrees to deliver the HE fragmentation warhead closer to the target is good enough... even a ring of side mounted rocket thrusters to push the round one way or the other would be enough... or even a speed brake that flips out for a fraction of a second to steer the round one way or the other could be enough to get the HE round close enough to end a drone.

Drones are tiny but are also incredibly fragile and very easy to break... a shock wave could break the wings which could be enough to stop it being effective... you don't have to shred it with shrapnel fragments, or blow it into tiny pieces...

These systems are very interesting and have potential connected with an IADS where warning times are sufficient as it could be done cheaply but still efficiently too... together with a range of other systems including decoys and jammers and even your own drones with weapons mounted on them to hunt other drones... it would be very interesting...

GarryB wrote:The issue with the big guns like the KS-19 is that such a large heavy weapon would have serious problems tracking a target in close and at longer ranges the problems of hitting a free flying target are compounded by time.

Think of it as a sniper... shooting a person to kill them from 100m should be quite straight forward... the distance they can move between when you fire the gun and when the bullet strikes the target will be incredibly short so there are very few things the target could do to evade getting hit... especially if they don't know the bullet is coming.

Now think of that same sniper shooting a target 20km away... with a projectile flight time measured in minutes the obvious problem for the sniper is to anticipate where the target will be in however many seconds his projectile will be in flight towards the target... once you fire even a slight speed up or slow down of the target could create an enormous miss... if the target is walking along a path you might be able to anticipate his position x number of seconds later if he is walking at a steady pace... but what if he hears or sees something that attracts his attention and he stops or slows down or speeds up... for a flying object the problems are multiplied with an added dimension of altitude... it can speed up or slow down or turn left or turn right or climb or descend but it can also do any combination of any or all of those...

The solution is an air burst... predict an intercept point and then set the round to explode there sending a shower of fragments over an enormous area to compensate for any deviation in flight... it would be relatively cheap to implement... certainly cheaper than a shell that manouvers... though to be clear a manouvering round doesn't need to fly loop the loops or be some sort of modern day dog fighter... often just being able to turn a few degrees to deliver the HE fragmentation warhead closer to the target is good enough... even a ring of side mounted rocket thrusters to push the round one way or the other would be enough... or even a speed brake that flips out for a fraction of a second to steer the round one way or the other could be enough to get the HE round close enough to end a drone.

Drones are tiny but are also incredibly fragile and very easy to break... a shock wave could break the wings which could be enough to stop it being effective... you don't have to shred it with shrapnel fragments, or blow it into tiny pieces...

These systems are very interesting and have potential connected with an IADS where warning times are sufficient as it could be done cheaply but still efficiently too... together with a range of other systems including decoys and jammers and even your own drones with weapons mounted on them to hunt other drones... it would be very interesting...

quite agree, and of course new rounds can be developed, the larger calibre will allow, more shrapnel, or emp rounds or bigger shockwave. Of course as u say this system is only decent when connected to IADS and timing is done correctly and remember its not just one Sa-ir being used but rather 4+ so if done and planned correctly you could create a wall of shrapnel/ shockwave against a swarm of drones. The bonus to this system is the cost of the rounds a lot cheaper than missiles which can be saved for high pay off targets and more difficult aircraft.

https://112.ua/mir/v-irane-obyasnili-pochemu-kompleks-pvo-zapustil-raketu-v-ukrainskiy-samolet-boeing-737-542530.html

Now they look like idiots with this flimsy excuse! But if true, heads should roll- if it wasn't adjusted for its new location, they shouldn't have used it at all.

Iranian Resonance-NE discovered and accompanied American F-35 fighters flying near the borders of the republic after a series of Iranian missile strikes against American military bases in Iraq.

https://en.topwar.ru/178548-rossijskaja-rls-rezonans-nje-vskroet-amerikano-izrailskij-udar-po-iranu.html

Now they look like idiots with this flimsy excuse! But if true, heads should roll- if it wasn't adjusted for its new location, they shouldn't have used it at all.

Wow... what amateurs... surely they should have claimed they were using old out of date maps like the Americans did when they bombed the Chinese embassy....

What they should do is say to all the countries demanding cash payments for their lost citizens that Iran will be happy to pay... from the seized money held by the west... when the west releases the money then they can get their money...

Were the iran TORM1 upgraded on M2?
The IDF is trained against the Cypriot M1 systems.

Training is one thing but it is like anything... you can train against someone with a knife, but that person will try to use the knife in specific ways which you will practise against and learn to counter.

It is useful experience but not really meaningful if you don't take the time to find out what techniques and tactics your actual enemy uses and get the person you are practising against to use those tactics and techniques.

Equally your enemy might try to look at things from your perspective and perhaps even use spies to find out what was tried and what worked and what did not so they can form new tactics for defeating enemy air power.

I would add that having capable missile systems would lead to enemy aircraft and weapons operating at lower altitudes, especially through mountains and hills if possible to delay detection... in which case even relatively small calibre guns can come in to play. Specially designed rounds with reduced propellent loads but enlarged payloads with more HE and more fragments... perhaps a directed payload of fragments that can generate a screen of debris that can bring down even a large group of drones at one time could be developed. Shorter range actually means less time for the target to deviate from its current flightpath or flight speed, meaning more chance of a kill.

Would also be absolutely devastating against enemy troops operating out in the open in the mountains...