BMP-3 in Russian Army

Saw a video of Russian soldiers talking about the Bradley and they said the armour was good for a BMP... so comparable but not better.

He also said he much preferred the 2A42 and 2A72 30mm cannon to the Bradleys 25mm bushmaster cannon.

This video seems to be suggesting that the Russians are upgrading their BMP-3s with Ephoca turrets with the 30mm cannon, but in actual fact the new turret with the 57mm grenade launcher would actually be vastly better.

The 57mm APFSDS round would easily penetrate enemy BMPs of all types (western and Soviet) from any angle, while also be able to penetrate most MBTs from the side and rear too.

The HE bomb should be significantly more powerful and the Kornet and Bulat missiles would provide good fire power too.

If the 57mm grenade launcher weapon has command detonated 57mm bombs then its performance against a wide range of targets should be excellent

Having the ramp rear door of the Manul is about the only advantage the Bradley had over the BMP-3 which was ease of access and entry for the troops, but when they put the Manul into serial production and start introducing the new turrets and new weapons its advantages will be much clearer.

Of course the BMP-3 already has superior armament to the Bradley, the ATGM missiles of the BMP are superior and can be fired while the vehicle is moving, whereas the TOW missiles can only be fired and guided by a stationary Bradley and its 25mm cannon is inferior to the 30mm cannon of the BMP and the 100mm gives it capabilities the Bradley does not have.

The 57mm grenade launcher is a low pressure gun if I'm not mistaken?

Mir wrote:The 57mm grenade launcher is a low pressure gun if I'm not mistaken?

Dual pressure, they showed telescoped APFSDS for it a while ago.

HE round that is mostly bomb... should be rather powerful...

and



APFSDS round. Considering the shell case is almost 60mm in diameter and is much longer than the 30x165mm 30mm round they use there is a lot more HE in the HE round and also room for a much longer heavier AP dart and also with plenty of room for propellant to get a decent level of muzzle velocity for penetration too.

They have essentially turned it into a telescopic round as used in the west, where there is no attempt at ballistic matching where the AP and HE rounds have similar velocity and mass so when fired in a belt they all hit to the same point of aim.

The HE round is big and heavy and low velocity but with a big HE payload because that is what is important with a HE round, while the APFSDS round has a long relatively heavy dart that is a fraction of the weight of the HE projectile and all the rest of the volume is propellant and sabot for long penetrator and max velocity.

The 57mm round based on the S-60 gun used on the 2S38 SPAAG is different and has HE and APFSDS and guided rounds too but has a bottleneck propellant case...

GarryB wrote:

The 57mm round based on the S-60 gun used on the 2S38 SPAAG is different and has HE and APFSDS and guided rounds too but has a bottleneck propellant case...

I think the ammo depicted above is more closely related to the T-15 Armata's loadout mounting the 57mm AU-220M Automatic Weapon Station. The 57mm gun mounted on the T-15 can obviously also engage airborne targets but it has a lower firing rate of 80 rpm, compared to the 2S38's 120 rpm. The gun mount on the T-15 also seems to offer a much greater engagement range.

I think the ammo depicted above is more closely related to the T-15 Armata's loadout mounting the 57mm AU-220M Automatic Weapon Station. The 57mm gun mounted on the T-15 can obviously also engage airborne targets but it has a lower firing rate of 80 rpm, compared to the 2S38's 120 rpm. The gun mount on the T-15 also seems to offer a much greater engagement range.

I have not seen the AU-220M 57mm gun mounted on the T-15 AFAIK... only the 57mm grenade launcher.

From what I can tell the 57mm grenade launcher is used in BMPs and the 57mm cannon is used in air defence vehicles and old vehicle upgrades and naval gun mounts.

The grenade launcher is called LSHO-57, or 9A94, while the gun is called 9A91.

Essentially the HE bomb grenade launcher does what the 100mm gun on the BMP-3 did, but with more onboard ammo and higher rate of fire, while the APFSDS round is used instead of ATGMs against lighter targets, leaving the Kornet for use against MBTS and aerial targets and the Bulat against light armoured targets at extended ranges and for manouvering or fast moving targets.

The low muzzle velocity of the HE bomb is no problem, the 100mm was not high velocity either.

For air defence the 57mm gun has higher muzzle velocities and also guided shells as well as airburst shells optimised for shooting at air and ground targets.

I would say against air targets the T-15 is probably more likely to use Kornet or Bulat depending on the range.

GarryB wrote:I have not seen the AU-220M 57mm gun mounted on the T-15 AFAIK... only the 57mm grenade launcher.

The AU-220M gun mount (remote weapon station) forms the basis for the slightly modified DUBM-57 Kinzhal remote weapon station with the added 2x Ataka missile launchers. Both can be fitted on the T-15 with a BM-57 auto cannon as in the picture below. It is not a grenade launcher as such AFAIK.



Here is the AU-220M on a BMP-3 chassis with the same 57mm auto cannon. It is this gun that can fire high-explosive, armoured piercing and guided projectiles. The 2S38 uses yet another variant of the AU-220M.



The LShO-57 on the Kurganets-25 is also a automatic cannon and differs from the well-known 2A91 with its shorter barrel length and the absence of a muzzle brake.

GarryB wrote:I would say against air targets the T-15 is probably more likely to use Kornet or Bulat depending on the range.

Both Kornet and Bulat are primarily guided anti-tank missiles with very limited SAM capabilities - but besides that - the T-15 (BM-57 version) does not use either of them in it's weapons load. On the other hand the 57mm auto cannon - derived from the S-60 - is more than qualified in the SPAAG role.

I do however think that the Bulat can be developed into a useful anti-drone missile variant.

Both Kornet and Bulat are primarily guided anti-tank missiles with very limited SAM capabilities

The 10km range Kornet-EM is the HE frag armed missile intended for hitting point targets... including drones and other targets that lack RCS or IR signature for other guidance systems to engage.

The BMPT carries Ataka missiles for a similar role... hitting point targets out to extended ranges with HE Frag warheads, and also allows engaging air targets.

Obviously with a grenade launcher such missiles would be more useful defending the vehicle from helicopters or drones... with the high velocity 57mm gun guided shells would be used instead, but Kornet missiles would still be needed for use against heavy armour.

The requirement for such systems (HE frag armed ATGMS) will hopefully be reduced with the widespread introduction of SOSNA which also has laser beam riding guidance and much faster missiles, but Kornet and Bulat should have excellent anti air capabilities that render DIRCMS pretty useless as well as flares and chaff useless too.

AU-220M.

AU-220M is the turret designation AFAIK and was used for the PT-76 when fitted with a 57mm gun too.

The naval 57mm gun uses that designation as well.

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/au-220-m/

The turret you are showing is the Dagger turret and has been shown (AFAIK) on the BMP-3 (B-17), and the Kurganets B-14.

The grenade launcher turret has been shown on the T-15 and B-15 (Kurganets) and the K-19 (BMP-3).

The three turrets in testing at the time were the Dagger (57mm gun), Epoch (57mm grenade launcher), and Berezhok, and the vehicles included BMP-2, BMP-3, BMD-2, and the Kurganets BMP.

GarryB wrote:
The 10km range Kornet-EM is the HE frag armed missile intended for hitting point targets... including drones and other targets that lack RCS or IR signature for other guidance systems to engage.

The BMPT carries Ataka missiles for a similar role... hitting point targets out to extended ranges with HE Frag warheads, and also allows engaging air targets.

The Kornet does have a HE rounds and needs to make contact to detonate. They are mainly used to attack infantry strong points. Very difficult to hit a small air target with any success as they don't have proximity fuses.

The Ataka does not have a "HE Frag" round as such, but there is a 9M220O continuous rod variant with a proximity fuse for air targets

GarryB wrote:AU-220M is the turret designation AFAIK and was used for the PT-76 when fitted with a 57mm gun too.
The turret you are showing is the Dagger turret and has been shown (AFAIK) on the BMP-3 (B-17), and the Kurganets B-14.

Here is wide angle screenshot of the turret I posted - from the manufacturer...
...and yes their is a naval version as well.

GarryB wrote:The grenade launcher turret has been shown on the T-15 and B-15 (Kurganets) and the K-19 (BMP-3).

As I've mentioned, the The LShO-57 on the Kurganets-25 is also a automatic cannon, but maybe I'm missing something? Do you have any pictures of the grenade launcher turrets?

Edit: With further reading I've noticed that the LShO-57 is referred to by various Russian sources as either a auto cannon, a low pressure gun and also a automatic grenade launcher. So I guess you can take you pick.

Most sources say this:

The main armament is the 57 mm LSHO-57 automatic cannon with a firing range of up to 6 km. A 7.62mm PKTM machine gun with 2,000 rounds of ammunition is paired with it. The missile armament is represented by 2 Kornet-D anti-tank guided missile launchers with a firing range of up to 10 km and one Bulat small-sized missile system with 8 missiles.