Mi-28N Havoc: News

The most modern Russian combat helicopter Mi-28NM will be tested in the Syrian desert

https://iz.ru/855084/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko/naglotatsia-pyli-nochnoi-superokhotnik-obkataiut-zharoi-i-peskom

Surprise, surprise.

Syria.
With Video:

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-advanced-flying-tank-hunter-spotted-in-syria.html

From the link in dinos post 283 it says this:

According to the source, the rocket will fly to the target according to the onboard inertial navigation system, location information of target will be made in the memory of the system at the time of launch from a helicopter. Mi-28NM, in turn, will receive target coordinates from their means of detection or of a unified system of command and control.

In the terminal phase of flight, the source explained, "the new missile will enable the seeker to detect targets in a given area and defeat." The helicopter will be able to get the video from the rocket via a secure information and command radio, the source added.

So either the helicopter will detect the target with its own sensors or will receive target coordinates from other platforms (ie UAV, ground forces, other aircraft, satellite, etc etc...).

It can then fire a missile at the target location, with the missile using command guidance to get it to the location of the target.

The seeker in the missile will scan for the actual target and attack it.

This is interesting the helicopter will get video from the rocket via digital datalink and the command radio suggests in the terminal phase the helicopter crew can reselect a target from those visible if they are not happy with the target the missile selects... ie if the target area has three Abrams tanks and an air defence vehicle of some sort the crew might want to take out the air defence vehicle first.

Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km away they might just take out the Abrams tanks and pass the location data for the linebacker to get engaged with a shorter ranged weapon like a Vikhr from 10-15km or so... which is still safely outside its effective range.

Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km

Only in flat desert you can use weapons at max range. In europe you can hide behind trees, rocks, houses ... effective range can be few hundreds meters againsr well trained ground crews.

In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous. Manpads at close range have better Pk and much harder to detect if they are launch under the helicopter. Reaction time is then reduced. Against shilkas or tunguska like system they are dead meat.

Isos wrote:...........
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous...

Not dangerous, 100% suicidal

Even fighter jets couldn't fly below double-digit number of kilometers, two that tried got blown to shit

Also, there are loads of rumors that Apaches forward stationed Macedonia suffered major ''accidents'' on the ground but since we are now ''cool'' with Uncle Sam everyone is politely keeping things quiet

Long story short: keep helicopters away from wooded areas

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...........
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous...

Not dangerous, 100% suicidal

Even fighter jets couldn't fly below double-digit number of kilometers, two that tried got blown to shit

Also, there are loads of rumors that Apaches forward stationed Macedonia suffered major ''accidents'' on the ground but since we are now ''cool'' with Uncle Sam everyone is politely keeping things quiet  

Long story short: keep helicopters away from wooded areas

Or you can also quotes numbers from vietnam war. They lost like as much helicopter as there are right now in europe, russia included.

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...........
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous...

Not dangerous, 100% suicidal

Even fighter jets couldn't fly below double-digit number of kilometers, two that tried got blown to shit

Also, there are loads of rumors that Apaches forward stationed Macedonia suffered major ''accidents'' on the ground but since we are now ''cool'' with Uncle Sam everyone is politely keeping things quiet  

Long story short: keep helicopters away from wooded areas

Two crashed in total. One had flight computer issue that was later patched on all AHs in service. Second had hydraulics failure. All other stories about us bombing whatever, destroying whatever are just fishing stories. Same as we have about 25.000 "Košare veterans" online.

Isos wrote:

Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km

Only in flat desert you can use weapons at max range. In europe you can hide behind trees, rocks, houses ... effective range can be few hundreds meters againsr well trained ground crews.

In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous. Manpads at close range have better Pk and much harder to detect if they are launch under the helicopter. Reaction time is then reduced. Against shilkas or tunguska like system they are dead meat.

You´re right if the weapon is launched from the ground, but flying in 1.000 or 2.000m you can look and shoot quite far. And this missiles won´t be used against some soldier hiding behind something, they will be used against vehicles. The radar of the Mi-28NM can see tanks from 20km, even if they are hinding inside woods.

You´re right if the weapon is launched from the ground, but flying in 1.000 or 2.000m you can look and shoot quite far. And this missiles won´t be used against some soldier hiding behind something, they will be used against vehicles. The radar of the Mi-28NM can see tanks from 20km, even if they are hinding inside woods.

You should not trust everything said by the weapon makers.

There is no way a radar can see a tank in a dense forest. Behind one or two trees maybe.

At 1000-2000m they are seen by pantsirs ... and the radar will be detected by ground EW.

Source: the latest Russian aircraft rocket "product 305" is being tested in Syria

Tests are held in combat conditions, the source said.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6250803

Can only be hermes

There a man-portable radars that can see people behind bushes or trees.

And the west doesn´t have Pantsirs. Only Stingers. Even with Ataka a heli is out of reach of this thing.

Hole wrote:There a man-portable radars that can see people behind bushes or trees.

And the west doesn´t have Pantsirs. Only Stingers. Even with Ataka a heli is out of reach of this thing.

France has crotale. Others have amraam launched from ground.

Europe is full of rocks and mountains and never flat. Plenty of place where to hide. Even in yemen tanks are pretty well hiden and houtis get very close far less than max engagement range of their weapons.

Only in flat desert you can use weapons at max range. In europe you can hide behind trees, rocks, houses ... effective range can be few hundreds meters againsr well trained ground crews.

It works both ways... a helo can hide behind trees or low hills or large buildings too, while an air defence vehicle responsible for protecting a group of armoured vehicles it is operating with needs a good field of view and a good field of fire... you can tuck it behind a hill so the helo wont see it till it is right on top of it... but a UAV flying at 12,000m altitude will see it just fine and lase the target so local artillery can deal with the problem easily enough...

The point is that even on a clear day that Linebacker is not going to see a Havoc 22kms away and will have no idea it is there... it has Stinger missiles and a gatling gun... the new DIRCMs on the HAVOC means it actually only has a gatling gun for air defence...

It is very weak... with the gatling gun would be a useful convoy escort vehicle with anti ambush capability, but otherwise... nah...

In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous. Manpads at close range have better Pk and much harder to detect if they are launch under the helicopter. Reaction time is then reduced. Against shilkas or tunguska like system they are dead meat.

Yeah, well that is the problem when you try to use Apaches in occupied foreign territory... In Iraq when used to support ground operations they went OK, partly from a lack of decent MANPADS in the hands of the enemy, but also careful and sensible use against targets that are properly softened up first.

When misused they are not good. ie farmers with 303s...

At 1000-2000m they are seen by pantsirs ... and the radar will be detected by ground EW.

MMW radar is very short range and direction finding is difficult... there are no ARMs that are effective against MMW radars AFAIK...

Otherwise the primary self defence weapon on a Hind or Havoc or Hokum would be an R-60 with an ARM seeker on it...

Europe is full of rocks and mountains and never flat. Plenty of place where to hide

And plenty of places for helos to hide too... just altitude would be enough most of the time... its sensors that can detect targets at more than 25 kms suggests the ability to detect targets close as well... DIRCMS means optical and IR guided weapons wont be effective, and having Hermes on board are you going to sit in an armoured vehicle and scan the skies looking for helos knowing it can detect that radar from further away than you can detect him and his Hermes missiles are rather fast and terminally guided so he can launch and then descend out of sight and use the datalink with his missile for the terminal phase of the attack...

And plenty of places for helos to hide too... just altitude would be enough most of the time

Yes but that means engagemement ranges won't be the maximum.

If you have 2000 manpads, you send at least 1000 of them where you know enemy can hide or use terrain following.

MANPADS would probably not be as effective against a DIRCMS protected Mi-28NM as a boring old RPG fired in your general direction...

The point is that these helos are not fighter planes in movies that go off on their own to hunt down things to shoot at.

Generally ground forces will have an objective they want to take and they want air power to soften it first, but unlike WWII where the artillery would bombard the enemy and then the troops would move forward and any resistance would be dealt with using ground based tank guns or Il-2M aircraft with cannon and rockets, it is going to be rather more sophisticated and effective... ground forces will probably mark targets of known locations for artillery, while helicopters would have sat 5km back (Mi-28A) and hit targets with Atakas, or with experience in Syria at 10km back with better sensors and optics and Vikhr and improved Krisantema missiles and picked off targets... what they are saying now is that the optics and radar sensors have improved to the point where it can sit back even further and look for threats and targets and engage them... or at the very least mark them on their maps and pass that information via datalink to ground and air forces and to HQ.... so near the front line sitting in an Armata tank all these enemy icons will appear on your map... from your position you might be able to confirm and perhaps even better identify the targets... a zoomed in digital photo of the target could be attached to the icon on the map to confirm what it is... the helo might choose to engage at extreme range or it might just spend the next few hours scanning for targets and putting valuable information on its map database... many targets wont require the expense of a Hermes... a 152mm Krasnopol round from an artillery unit 15km behind the front line might be able to do the job... UAVs will also be flying around the place marking targets and trying to get ground forces to expose their location by engaging them... with a peer enemy it will be hard but this new helo will be an excellent tool for the job... in a more uneven situation the helicopter might move forward and carry only four Hermes missiles on one pylon, with the opposite pylon carrying 8 Krisantema or even Ataka, and the two inner pylons could have 40 x 80mm rockets with laser homing rockets with a 15kg HE warhead designed to obliterate unarmoured targets like cars or light trucks with HMGs on the back, or TOW launch positions or buildings or MG positions...

With laser homing those rocket might be lofted in the direction of the target to get max ballistic range of perhaps 6-8km with what would result in a diving HE laser guided round...

https://mobile.twitter.com/Syrian_MC/status/1124428623128203265

Mi-28NM in Syria.

Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/Syrian_MC/status/1124428623128203265

Mi-28NM in Syria.

Nice find
In the comments he says he could be carrying the new atgm

Hermes ?

That was quick...

In Rostov-on-don began the production of the first of 100 Mi-28NM helicopters — said to Tv Channel "Zvezda" the Deputy Minister of defense of the Russian Federation.

The Supreme commander decided that by 2027 to supply the armed forces with 100 such helicopters

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/120194/

"Night Hunter" has become even more dangerous

Mi-28NM helicopters received new means of attack and defense

Dmitry Popov

At a meeting on the development of the military-industrial complex in mid-May in Sochi, President Vladimir Putin said that by 2028, 100 new Mi-28NM helicopters should be delivered to the troops. How the modernized “Night Hunter” differs from its predecessors and what other improvements are awaiting it - I understood with the help of the leading military expert Alexei Leonkov “Army Standard”.

https://armystandard.ru/news/direct-hit/t/20195221052-HGVbh.html

Alligator Hunter: Combat Helicopters Unified in Russia

The newest shock machines Mi-28NM and Ka-52M will simplify production and service.

Roman Kretzul
Aleksey Ramm

The production of tested Mi-28NM and Ka-52M attack helicopters will be unified. The developers are tasked to equip both helicopters with the same engines and basic structural elements. As a result, production will be cheaper, and maintenance and repair will be simplified. Until now, a variety of combat vehicles with incompatible spare parts created difficulties in the performance of combat missions.

The decision to make the Mi-28NM helicopter, which the troops call the “Night Super-Hunting” and the Ka-52M (“Super-Alligator”) compatible, has already been made, the Defense Ministry told Izvestia. A unification plan is being developed. Manufacturers of both machines are part of the holding "Helicopters of Russia". Machines are considered the most promising in the Russian army aviation.

The most important will be the unification of communications, airborne defense systems and weapons of destruction, says military expert Viktor Murakhovsky.

“The task of unifying on-board equipment and weapons of destruction is relatively simple,” said Victor Murakhovsky to Izvestia. - In this direction, much has already been achieved. Engines also can be unified. But if we talk about the control systems for rotors and tail rotors, then everything is more complicated. These are helicopters of a fundamentally different layout - the Mi-28NM is equipped with a tail rotor, and the Ka-52M is coaxial.

According to him, after bringing helicopters to a common denominator for a number of systems, it will be easier to retrain pilots and technical personnel. There will be much less problems with the supply of spare parts and consumables. Reduced costs - production and maintenance.

Mi-28NM was created on the basis of the Mi-28N “Night Hunter” helicopter, but differs from its predecessor in many ways. The first flight of the car made in August of 2016 . By the beginning of this year, the Mi-28MN has passed all stages of factory tests, and in the spring - military tests in combat conditions in Syria. In May, President Vladimir Putin stated that until 2028, 100 such helicopters should be delivered to the troops.

One of the main advantages of the newest modification of "Night Hunter" is the appearance of a nadvulochnoy radar station. The antenna receiving and transmitting part of the radar is located above the rotor under a special radome made of a radio-permeable material in the form of a ball - this allows you to get an image of the terrain, hiding in the uneven terrain behind artificial and natural obstacles and remaining invisible to the enemy.

The car received new engines, a control system and an anti-aircraft defense system. For the crew of the Mi-28NM, target designation and indication systems built into flight helmets were developed using augmented reality technology: the required pilot information is projected onto a plastic protective visor using a laser beam: a map, reconnaissance information, and the state of the vehicle. When flying, even with zero visibility, the system can display a three-dimensional image of the terrain over which the helicopter is moving.

Mi-28NM became the most protected military helicopter. The crew cabin and vital units are fully armored, able to withstand the hit of large-caliber bullets and shrapnel. From the MANPADS device protects the warning system , which analyzes the trajectory of the rocket and gives recommendations to the pilot: to perform a maneuver to dodge or shoot heat traps. This will protect the helicopter from unguided rockets, and the guided laser station can be moved aside. The depreciation system in the chassis and crew members allows you to save the lives of pilots and the car itself when falling from a height of several tens of meters. In the event of a helicopter crash at high altitude, it provides a system for shooting side doors, allowing the crew to safely leave the cabin and land with a parachute .

Work on the modernization of the attack helicopter Ka-52 "Alligator" began last year. The developers have been given the task of making a fundamentally new machine, taking into account the experience of combat exploitation. This year, the Ka-52M made its first flight , Izvestia sources said. At the end of May, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko announced that modernization should be completed in 2022 .

Full Article:
https://iz.ru/888102/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm/okhotnik-na-alligatore-v-rossii-unifitciruiut-boevye-vertolety

Will they be retrofitting old airframes with same engines?

And which engine will be selected as universal one?