Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

Podlodka77 wrote:

Isos wrote:P1000 as well as p700 and p500 are good but I would bet on aster family.

They didn't develop Oniks and Zirkon because they wanted more beautiful missiles.

Also good luck finding a target 1000km away with a lonely Slava. To use them at those ranges you need aircraft in the air. In the open ocean with no back up from mainland aviation those Slava and P1000 are weaker than US carrier battle groums with f-18 and harpoons.

And if the story about Ukrainian anti ship missiles destroying the Moskva is real then this ship didn't do what it was suppise to do, defend against slow low flying missiles and here it was war time. And US strike groups with dozens of f-18 can launch way more missiles at once than Ukrops.

Do the Russians have the GLONASS military satellite system and Beriev A-50 aircraft ? Isos, the MiG-31 would have no problem fighting the surface fleet of France... Such a huge radar as the MiG-31 has is difficult to jam, especially compared to the small radar on the Rafale..
In the event of a conflict between Russia and France, I would transfer all the Rafale planes in, let's say Germany..

Read again what I said.

Mig-31 and a50 can help around Russian mainland but certainly not far away. If the Slava goes to help an african or south american country it will be alone. There you have almost no chance to attack a target 1000km away.

Podlodka77 wrote:
Do the Russians have the GLONASS military satellite system and Beriev A-50 aircraft ? Isos, the MiG-31 would have no problem fighting the surface fleet of France... Such a huge radar as the MiG-31 has is difficult to jam, especially compared to the small radar on the Rafale..
In the event of a conflict between Russia and France, I would transfer all the Rafale planes in, let's say Germany..

IDK how about you, but I will switch my GPS nav for La Frogge worldwide navigation system, because I don't want to miss when Le Camembert space station will fly above my head, on its way to Marschall Foch Moon station.

If they upgraded them with new S-300 PM2 and UKSK angled launchers, they would be wonderful ships.

I would say an upgrade to their TOR self defence systems and an upgrade to their gatling guns and the radars that direct them and perhaps replace the old guns with new guns for testing... perhaps the new 152mm guns they are developing.

Their Vulcan missiles are already land attack capable... should have used some up on Orc targets really, but the advantage of these ships are their size and endurance... their problem is that it is probably not cost effective to give them serious upgrades.

Upgrade their EW defence equipment and their self defence systems, but it is better to save money for serial production of which ever Frigate design they like the best and then start on Destroyers.

Upgrading the Udaloys has given them some more useful ships but I am not sure the few Slavas they have would be worth upgrading fully.

The Kirovs make sense because they are already designed to launch missiles vertically... it was the first ship with vertical launch missile systems to enter service in fact.

Now they are totally outdate as shown in Ukraine.

Ahh bullshit. Russia Air Defence systems have proved to be very effective and minor upgrades to a ship that had 1970s level air defences should have been made, but there is no evidence at all the Orcs hit the Moskva with anti ship missiles... if they did what else have they sunk with anti ship missiles?

If it sank the Moskva why didn't they keep using them and waste time and money with drones for the current attack on the Black Sea fleet?

Unless they are full of shit.

Problem is that moskva had broken CIWS and radars. Their tech level wasn't the problem

If its defence systems were not working it would not have been sent to do the job it as doing... that is just ridiculous.

It is Russia's mistake that such a ship was used for tasks for which it was not designed, because it is a cruiser for the open seas..

What do you mean mistake?

We don't even know what actually happened... any ship can hit a mine, and a ship using its radars to scan for enemy might have launched a rather old S-300F that chose this time to fail and fall back onto the deck and start a fire which spread and did enough damage to make the ship unsafe and it sank.

More likely than the Orcs managed to hit a large ship with two anti ship missiles and then suddenly stopped using those successful missiles despite getting plenty from the US (Harpoon) as well.

They have a track record for lying, and the facts don't match up with what they are saying now... it is a big ship but direct hits from two anti ship missiles with no blast damage visible and only fire damage suggests they are liars.

P1000 as well as p700 and p500 are good but I would bet on aster family.

They use the jammers and decoys like the Iskander does... an advantage of it being so big of course... how does Aster cope with jamming?

They didn't develop Oniks and Zirkon because they wanted more beautiful missiles.

Onyx introduced the more efficient ramjet propulsion, while Zircon has scramjet technology that makes it much more powerful, but even the Kh-32 would be a serious threat in the Black Sea to any ship... what AD system engages targets flying at 40km altitude?

Also good luck finding a target 1000km away with a lonely Slava.

It is looking for carrier groups... large collections of enormous bits of metal most satellites can see and they don't move fast enough for tracking to be a real problem... the presence of an AWACS plane scanning and communicating in the middle of the ocean gives a good indication and friendly submarines can pass on target data too.

To use them at those ranges you need aircraft in the air.

Or a friendly fishing boat or nearby sub or satellite flashing over every 90 minutes.

And if the story about Ukrainian anti ship missiles destroying the Moskva is real then this ship didn't do what it was suppise to do, defend against slow low flying missiles and here it was war time. And US strike groups with dozens of f-18 can launch way more missiles at once than Ukrops.

But if they sank the Moskva with anti ship missiles why didn't they build on their success by sinking the rest?

Or anything else... or even fire a few anti ship missiles at the bridge they were so desperate to destroy.

Sounds like BS to me.

Moskva is at the bottom of the sea. US destroyers were attacked by Houti missiles, same class as ukro missiles, and they survived.

Which also suggests the Moskva was not hit by anti ship missiles because those Houthi missiles just pissed all over western air defence systems in Saudi Arabia including Patriot and 35mm guns and various other bits of western rubbish.

I wouldn't be surprised if they loose at least one Grigorovitch till the end of the war.

I am sure you would celebrate the nazis murdering some Russian boys... peddling Orc propaganda does not do you any credit...

Mig-31 and a50 can help around Russian mainland but certainly not far away. If the Slava goes to help an african or south american country it will be alone. There you have almost no chance to attack a target 1000km away.

You do understand that the Russian navy keeps tabs on where the US carrier groups are at all times via a multitude of sources including satellites but not limited to them.

IDK how about you, but I will switch my GPS nav for La Frogge worldwide navigation system, because I don't want to miss when Le Camembert space station will fly above my head, on its way to Marschall Foch Moon station.

You are taking the piss, but it would be interesting to see a world where the EU had some balls and just told the US to **** off... the Europeans and the Russians could have created amazing things... but now Russia will just have to do those amazing things with China and India and South Africa and Brazil and the rest of the world... and the EU can pay more for energy.

The west is far too colonial bound to ever want a free, fair, and prosperous world... wont say democratic because that is a dirty word now, and who am I to tell China what government they can or cannot have...

Ironic that the west has now become a barrier to peace and real progress.

GarryB wrote:
You are taking the piss, but it would be interesting to see a world where the EU had some balls and just told the US to **** off... the Europeans and the Russians could have created amazing things... but now Russia will just have to do those amazing things with China and India and South Africa and Brazil and the rest of the world... and the EU can pay more for energy.
The west is far too colonial bound to ever want a free, fair, and prosperous world... wont say democratic because that is a dirty word now, and who am I to tell China what government they can or cannot have...
Ironic that the west has now become a barrier to peace and real progress.

Oh, there is nothing I would like to see more my friend.
This was the European Union I have voted for in a countrywide referendum 20 years ago.
And that was something that threatened the Murica most of all. A truly united Europe, from Lisbon to Vladivostok. Took them 20 years to put the traitors and miserable zeros in charge, but they have finally succeeded in breaking the neck of Europe.

Note I agree with what you are saying, but I don't like it.

I would prefer the west practised what it preaches instead of being a colonial predator dedicated to staying in power... ironically the stuff Putin is talking about... non interference in other countries and just peace and trade is the sort of think Star Trek was all about, which for a while the US seemed interested in... until it became plain they are the Borg wanting to assimilate and consume and destroy.

It is a photo from the mid 1980s... why do you think it should look up to date now?

Would love to see an upgraded model with all those antenna replaced with AESA radar antenna that are fixed but provide 360 degree coverage.

The missiles are more of a problem because of the way they are located... a high centre of gravity with them being completely above deck, but really you could only replace them with angled launchers of smaller calibre in greater numbers... perhaps a UKSK launcher for each missile pair on each side... that would mean 8 x 8 missile tubes... 64 missiles which is not as good as the Orlan class, but these ships are also rather smaller.

Effectively two and a half original Oscar class ships worth of main missiles... 64 vs 24.

Of course the S-300 and naval TOR batteries could be replaced with fixed vertical missile launchers in much greater numbers because newer fixed launcher tubes would have greater capacity than the older rotary launchers that required internal manual inspection of the missiles.

And of course the gun could be replaced with a 152mm gun as well as CIWS improved with newer systems.

A lesson in trying to save money by not spending money when money spent may or may not have made a significant difference.

Hopefully they will learn that any weapon in war needs to be able to defend itself and older systems and equipment being used up before expiry dates is a good thing.

PapaDragon wrote:
It's currently rotting on the bottom of the sea
Equipment is no longer the issue here

That's the fate of a warship at war.
Those are being lost while performing their tasks and duties.

lancelot wrote:It still has the revolver and arm launchers. Which means these ships are highly vulnerable to saturation attacks.

Not really.
It has 8 independent Fort modules, that can start the missiles in a sequence. It rotates faster than it takes to finish a 8 missile cyclo.
It might be the case for Osa, but it still has 4 ready to go missiles and multiple reloads.
Confront that with any opforces example, and here is your case resolved.

GarryB wrote:
naval TOR batteries

It does not have it. Osa is the name of the system.

Best end it could have. Now they have to replace it with a new ship, maybe the 4th unfinished Grigorovitch tht has no buyer yet.

Those 16 p-500 are shit compare to 8 Zirkon that could fit in a Grigorovitch class. Buk-M3 is also way better than those S-300 from the 80s, specially against very low flying missiles even if it carries less missiles. And it's much better for a closed sea than a cruiser made to hunt carrier groups.

The crew of 1 slava can be used for 2 Grigorovitch.

Slavas are not gonna be modernized anyway. Sending them to the bottom remove the need to take care of them after their service.

Those ships have only one advantage.
Used to be constructed as a flagmans, so have corresponding features, including space for flotilla command and special communication. That is one of the reasons that those have been even operated.

ALAMO wrote:Those ships have only one advantage.
Used to be constructed as a flagmans, so have corresponding features, including space for flotilla command and special communication. That is one of the reasons that those have been even operated.

They don't need such ships in the blaack sea. Comms reach all the parts of the sea from ground.

Keeping a Slava to show a flag is beyond retard. Either upgrade them with Poliment/Redut and uksk or replace them with better ships.

A single Gorshkov is better than those 3 Slava with their current weapons.

Project 22350 is very nice, but the construction is going very slowly. Project 22350M is currently on paper or not. It is not known when they will start construction

So, in general, we can forget about the 22350M project in the coming years. It will be many years before they lay the keel, and the construction of the first unit will also take a long time. The construction of the 22350 itself is also going slowly. Well, we will not see the expansion of the Russian fleet any time soon. Even by more 22350s and 22350Ms.