Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

   DATELINE: MOSCOW Sept 4

   Before upgrading any weapons the cost of the upgrade and its results should be clearly understood, Russian Deputy Defense Minister for armaments Vladimir Popovkin said.

   “We are going into upgrading as into a dark forest,” Popovkin said at hearings organized by the Public Chamber together with the Union of Russian Machine-Building on Friday.

   Asked about the prospects of financing the repairs and upgrade of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, Popovkin said that the price of the work exceeds $1 billion.

   “We will have to provide a billion now and when we start the upgrade we will have to spend one and a half billion more. A new [ship] costs two and a half billion but it will also have double the service life,” he added.

   Therefore before making such decisions “everything must be properly calculated,” he said.

   Unofficial sources say that the repairs and upgrade of the cruiser were supposed to end at Sevmashpredpriyatiye in 2011 but even now it is clear that the deadline will be shifted.

Source

As you can see, I made a epic fail comment

Anyway

But yeah, so does this mean it is cheaper for Russia to build a whole new one based on the current Kirov design? Or is it just better to invest in a new one?  A maybe....more stealthy one?

How hard would it be to make some design changes to the current ships and build a new one based on some stealth modifications?

Anywho, Russia is in dire need of new Bluewater Ships.  Hopefully they will work something out to be big like countries like UK, France, China, etc in the blue water force.

Adm. Popovkin appears to have the right idea. It is not timely or cost efficient enough to refit such an old ship. We have seen the problems with Gorshvok that make it a bad idea. The money should be used to develop a new class of air defence destroyers to take its place.

poor Nakhimov ....

Anyway how about developing new cruiser ?

Cruisers, Destroyers and various other ships is a good idea to have. But in Russia's best interest, they should find alternatives. For instance, why have both Frigates and missile destroyers, when something in-between can fit its roll? The problem with current military development is, that almost everyone follows the same path in development of new ships and alike. Even if it looks different, has a different name, different missiles as well as different tech, it still falls under the same pretense......To do what the title it is given to. Instead, maybe go outside the box and develop something new? Not only would it open to a new market, but it can adjust to new defense measures and can even save money in the long run.

sepheronx wrote:Cruisers, Destroyers and various other ships is a good idea to have. But in Russia's best interest, they should find alternatives. For instance, why have both Frigates and missile destroyers, when something in-between can fit its roll? The problem with current military development is, that almost everyone follows the same path in development of new ships and alike. Even if it looks different, has a different name, different missiles as well as different tech, it still falls under the same pretense......To do what the title it is given to. Instead, maybe go outside the box and develop something new? Not only would it open to a new market, but it can adjust to new defense measures and can even save money in the long run.

Yes ,but don;t forget the constant corruption that goes on with new projects!

I say we clean our ranks first and then start new projects!

Stealthflanker wrote:poor Nakhimov ....

Anyway how about developing new cruiser ?

Since we are so content on buying French warships, maybe we should get in on the FREMM. With a modification to Russian weapons, it could be quite a devestating little ship.

Russian Patriot wrote:

Yes ,but don;t forget the constant corruption that goes on with new projects!

I say we clean our ranks first and then start new projects!

Agreed.

As long as people whom are corrupted still in power, we wont solve anything. But once they are out, Russia can move in a high rate of production.

Russia plans reactivation of two Kirov-class cruisers

The Russian Federation Navy (RFN) is to reactivate two laid-up Kirov-class (Project 1144) battle cruisers, according to statements attributed by Russian media to the country's deputy defence minister.

Colonel General Vladimir Popovkin reportedly said that the Ministry of Defence has decided to renovate and modernise its heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (tiazhyeliy atomniy raketniy kreiser/TARK) units Admiral Lazarev (ex- Frunze ) and Admiral Nakhimov (ex- Kalinin ).

The 24,300-ton ships were commissioned into the Soviet Navy in 1984 and 1988, the second and third vessels in a class that eventually numbered four. Col Gen Popovkin made no mention of the lead ship, Admiral Ushakov (ex- Kirov ), which entered service in 1980 and was decommissioned in 2004, appearing to confirm earlier reports that it is to be scrapped.

The RFN currently has one ship of the class in service, Pyotr Velikiy (ex- Yuri Andropov , ex- Kuibishev ), which was launched in St Petersburg in 1989 and commissioned in 1998.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jni/jni091111_1_n.shtml

Cruiser Admiral Nakhimov to be in service by 2012

17.11.2009
Scope of work on upgrading heavy nuclear missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is evaluated as 20 bln rub, informs Shipbuilding.Ru.

According to Nikolai Kalistratov, Sevmash Director General, the shipyard is ready to launch works upon receipt of funds. The monetary assets for the ship's repair are provided by government weaponry program 2007-2015. The cruiser is expected to be in-commission again by 2012, said Mr. Kalistratov.

Heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is a Project 1144 Orlan nuclear missile cruiser of Russian Northern Fleet; it has being modernized since 1999. It had a name of Kalinin until 1992. Laid down on May 17, 1983 and put afloat on Apr 25, 1986, it was commissioned on Dec 30, 1988. The cruiser was renamed as Admiral Nakhimov on Apr 22, 1992. In July 1997 it carried out last cruise before overhaul. After that the vessel was laid up for repairs and modernization at Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk. Under overhaul project it is planned to replace obsolete electronic equipment. Supposedly, the ship will be equipped with up-to-date XXI-century digital systems. It is also planned to replace launchers of Granit missile system with the later ones.

In 2008 the overhaul plan was updated what made it possible to force the modernization terms – the discharge of spent fuel started as early as September.

Regnum.ru

Yes, two Kirov cruisers to cover up the shortage of antiaircraft defense for the new Mistral class carriers I think..

Russian Patriot wrote:Yes, two Kirov cruisers to cover up the shortage of antiaircraft defense for the new Mistral class carriers I think..

Perhaps, but what really prompted this decision was the success of Pyotr Veliky. Since her modernisation, she has been the most active and effective ship in the fleet. Cruising around the world has shown these nuklear battle cruisers are a desirable thing to have. Showing the flag all over from Venezuela, Mediterranean, to South Afrika, to Indian Ocean. In one cruise she took part in three exercises and covered 30,000km. She caught more pirates than any other ship. She is far more effective than Admiral Kuznetsov who caught electrical fires just on her way to Turkey. Having a Kirov as flagship for BSF and PACFLT will allow the Moskva and Varyag to finally retire. As well it will provide better air defence for a Mistral and whatever ships are in her task-force. With three helicopters she has triple the amount of air assets as any other lesser ship. With nuklear power, she will be able to keep up and provide cover for our future carriers as well. Having a Kirov parked off your coast is a scary prospect, her air defence is impenetrable to Western missiles.

Hmm Good news for Russia Navy


anyway hmm this is about the Kirov's Main Armament..the P-700 Granit Missiles . I heard one of the designer migrated to USA and sold its software source codes .. is this true ? and if it's true what missiles will likely be Granit's replacements ?

If Russia upgrades the St.Petersburg naval facilty or gets a new one built by France, will they develop new cruisers (along with the possible aircraft carriers)? If that is the case, then a good multi-purpose one would be awesome.

Stealthflanker wrote:Hmm Good news for Russia Navy


anyway hmm this is about the Kirov's Main Armament..the P-700 Granit Missiles . I heard one of the designer migrated to USA and sold its software source codes .. is this true ? and if it's true what missiles will likely be Granit's replacements ?

P-700 source code is irrelavent since its route is different for each approach. Without knowing what P-700 sees, you won't be able to decipher its attack pattern. I highly doubt if they got the source-code of the mid-life upgrade with modern hardware. The future fleet missile will most likely be P-800 Oniks as the new Graney class subs will have. Kirov allows enough length to put a booster on it for longer range. Missile count can be increased from 20 to 40 with the compact size of the launch canisters.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Stealthflanker wrote:Hmm Good news for Russia Navy


anyway hmm this is about the Kirov's Main Armament..the P-700 Granit Missiles . I heard one of the designer migrated to USA and sold its software source codes .. is this true ? and if it's true what missiles will likely be Granit's replacements ?

P-700 source code is irrelavent since its route is different for each approach. Without knowing what P-700 sees, you won't be able to decipher its attack pattern. I highly doubt if they got the source-code of the mid-life upgrade with modern hardware. The future fleet missile will most likely be P-800 Oniks as the new Graney class subs will have. Kirov allows enough length to put a booster on it for longer range. Missile count can be increased from 20 to 40 with the compact size of the launch canisters.

oh so it's been upgraded.. Good news then

Hmm anyway will there be any longer ranging and heavier warhead version of Oniks ? ..hmm since Granit itself have range around 550Km.. surely it would be favorable to replace it with something similar in performance

The issue of range comes down to range of vision more than anything else.
With the Legenda system of satellites targets could be engaged at extended ranges, but now that that system is no longer operational having long range missiles doesn't make sense.

It is like in WWI having a rifle capable of killing someone at 2,000m yet never actually using it at more than 400m because at 400m and further away a small moving target wearing camouflage it is hard to tell who is enemy and who is friend.
Yet almost all sides issued rifles capable of killing at more than 1,000m with sights that went to 2,000m or more.

Regarding the Onyx I have heard they are working on a hypersonic version that will be much more useful than just extending the range.
ie an Onyx that flys at mach 5-6 over 350-400km would be more use than an Onyx that flys at the current mach 2.8-3 with the range doubled to 600km.
Of course we can't really be sure what the original Onyx's range is as it is not limited by the MTCR like the for export Yakhont and Brahmos.

Regarding the Kirov upgrade, even just replacing half the RIF missiles with a combination of the smaller S-400 missiles (the very small 40km range missiles and the 120km range larger missiles) and leaving the other half for the large 400km range missiles that means you could have 48 missiles with a range of 400km, and 96 missiles with a range of 120km and a further 96 missiles with a range of 40km and that is just replacing the RIF missiles in the front.
(note the RIF missiles are the same size as the 400km range S-400s and there are 96 missiles on the standard Kirov so replace half (48) with 400km range missiles that leaves 48 tubes that can each take 4 of the two smaller types of missiles so that means 96 times two of those.)

The question is whether they will complete the twin barrel 152mm gun they were working on with the Army now that the Coalition program has lost its funding.

The Original Kirov was supposed to be a command vessel too so a lot of old electronics will likely be replaced with lots of much more capable electronics... it should be interesting.

Russia to recall from reserve three nuclear-powered missile cruisers by 2020 - Navy

RIA Novosti

23:16 24/07/2010

MOSCOW, July 24 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will recall from reserve after an upgrade three nuclear-powered missile cruisers by 2020, a high-ranking Navy staff officer told RIA Novosti on Saturday.

"Cruisers Admiral Nakhimov, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov will be modernized and returned to the Russian Navy's combat force in 10 years," the official said, adding the cruiser's equipment and weapons will be fully modernized.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100724-rianovosti01.htm

anyway hmm this is about the Kirov's Main Armament..the P-700 Granit Missiles . I heard one of the designer migrated to USA and sold its software source codes .. is this true ? and if it's true what missiles will likely be Granit's replacements ?

The Missiles of the Slava class vessel in the Black sea were replaced with P-1000 Vulkan missiles, with a supersonic speed and range of something like 750km. This suggests to me that perhaps the Granit and other very heavy missiles in Russian Navy service might also be replaced with Vulkan missiles.
Of course the current state of the art missile would be the Onyx which is the Soviet model of the Yakhont which is for export. You would probably get about three Onyx's in the space and weight of a Granit.

GarryB wrote:
The Missiles of the Slava class vessel in the Black sea were replaced with P-1000 Vulkan missiles, with a supersonic speed and range of something like 750km. This suggests to me that perhaps the Granit and other very heavy missiles in Russian Navy service might also be replaced with Vulkan missiles.
Of course the current state of the art missile would be the Onyx which is the Soviet model of the Yakhont which is for export. You would probably get about three Onyx's in the space and weight of a Granit.

yeah i know that Vulkan.. 700km in range , Armour, Jammers and Mach 2,8 speed

very nice thing to have

I think they replaced Sandbox missiles and Granits with Vulkans because the Vulkans are still able to be produced.
Some of the other big supersonic missiles used parts and companies from other Soviet republics so the best weapon to replace those missiles was the Vulkan.
Of course the Kuznestov is going to lose it Granits soon and I think with the Kirovs they might also have their large battery of Granits replaced either with a new version of Onyx, or perhaps with Kh-101/102 3,000 mile range cruise missiles, or perhaps some variant of Club missiles.

I have seen a vertical launch system that can either be loaded with one Yakhont/Onyx/BrahMos class missile or 4 of the Club family missiles. (The Club family include the subsonic land attack missile, the subsonic anti ship missile and the subsonic cruise but terminal mach 3 rocket powered anti ship missile).

Another option of course might be that the Kirovs become mostly air defence vessels with hundreds of very large SAMs with very long range and only a few long range cruise missiles that are to be part of a carrier group where the aircraft of that group do the long range strike like in the US carrier groups.
Strike aircraft options include the Mig-29K and perhaps later Su-33KUB and perhaps even a naval strike variant of the T-50 PAK FA.

The Kuznestov is supposed to be getting a significant overhaul including nuclear propulsion and perhaps even catapults. This should lead to potential for AWACS aircraft like the Yak-44. I always thought it would be a good idea to develop the Yak-44 anyway because a small cheaper AWACS aircraft would be very useful and would probably export quite well. Turboprop propulsion should be very efficient and the electronics that could be fitted into it is getting better all the time.
It would probably be cheaper to buy three Yak-44s than 1 full sized AWACs aircraft yet three mini AWACs aircraft would be more versatile than one.

With its long range radar you could even arm the Yak-44 with R-37M type long range AAMs for use against incoming low flying missiles detected at long range.

Russia to refit nuclear missile cruisers - media

RIA Novosti

17:54 21/09/2011 MOSCOW, September 21 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Defense Ministry is planning to refit three mothballed nuclear-powered Kirov-class missile cruisers in a major boost for the Russian Navy's combat strength, Izvestia newspaper said on Wednesday.

The Admiral Nakhimov, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov nuclear missile cruisers were built in the Soviet era but have been decommissioned and laid up in dock for over a decade. The only active Kirov class cruiser is the Pyotr Veliky, the flagship of Russia's Northern Fleet.

Izvestia cited a source in the Russian defense industry as saying the overhaul would include the hull and nuclear power plant repairs as well as a significant modernization of the ships' electronics and weaponry.

"All these measures will allow us to extend the service life of these ships until 2030-2040," the source said.

The ships' armament will get a major boost, with installation of advanced multi-module missile systems capable of firing a wide range of missiles and torpedoes, including P-800 Yakhont (SS-N-26) anti-ship cruise missiles.

The ships will also receive advanced air defense missile systems based on the land-based S-400 Triumf, and new point-defense systems.

Each cruiser will have a total missile carrying capacity of 300 missiles, making the ships among the best armed in the world.

After the refit, the Kirov class cruisers will most likely be deployed with Russia's Northern and Pacific fleets as part of large task forces set up to carry out a variety of combat missions - from "hunting" the adversary's aircraft carriers and submarines to massive land assaults.

Work on the Admiral Nakhimov has already started and the cruiser is expected to re-enter service with the Russian Navy in 2015, according to sources quoted in the media.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110921-rianovosti01.htm

The ships' armament will get a major boost, with installation of advanced multi-module missile systems capable of firing a wide range of missiles and torpedoes, including P-800 Yakhont (SS-N-26) anti-ship cruise missiles.

The multi module missile systems is the UKSK launchers that can hold a range of missiles, from the ASROC version of Klub, through the harpoon like version of Klub, and the supersonic anti ship version of Klub (not like any western missile), to the land attack tomahawk like version of Klub, to the Oniks/Yakhont/Brahmos, and the Kh-101/102 strategic missiles.
Each launcher is an 8 tube launcher and can pretty much carry any combination of the above missile types.

The ships will also receive advanced air defense missile systems based on the land-based S-400 Triumf, and new point-defense systems.

This is interesting... the new point defence systems might include Duet, Pantsir-S1, or even Morfei/Vityaz.

I always thought that upgrading a 20 years old ship and a cold war relic was a bad idea considering they are spending a huge amount in doing this.

I would have rather spent that money in buying more ships of 22350 or the new generation destroyer that would last longer and more modern.

Good Luck to then in upgrading this monster.

In a world out of oil Nuclear powered cruisers are a necessity if you want to project force or protect your coast.

It'll be risky traveling the Pacific Ocean with it.....too many submarines are going to be under the waters of the Pacific. EVERYONE'S submarines.

It'll be safe in every other ocean.

I'm a bit surprised they want to upgrade all of them but I do agree that they need large capital ships. I thought they would go for 1 or 2 more. I wonder if they get LR ground attack cruise missiles.