Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

The first ship of the series has a Cracked Reactor the ship is done, it's a floating nuclear disaster right now, The Russians are not touching that thing. due to the fact they allowed it to sit in dock for all those years with that cracked reactor, it's posing a threat to organic life nearby it.

Anyone who thinks the Ushakov will get fixed has been dropped on their heads too many times.

ITS not going to be repaired nor is Lazarov, this issue is quite close and has been only two of the four kirov's are getting upgrades and you cannot just rip a reactor outta a warship and replace it. That shows a cross miss-understanding on how ship construction works.

No, of course you can't take the propulsion system out of a ship and replace it... that is totally impossible... I mean they fix those things in there with superglue and duct tape... there is no way they could remove an old reactor and replace it with a new one.

Those who think the arrangement is clever... the very idea of complicating a ships design by having two completely different powerplants is interesting... a bit like having a small petrol engine in a car that is no quite powerful enough to drive at top speed on a motorway, so you add an extra electric engine in the vehicle so you run electric around the town and use a petrol engine when going fast on the motorway.

Actually that is sensible in a car when electric engines are not powerful enough to do everything, or lack endurance to be the sole power system of the vehicle.

The problem is that the Kirov with combined propulsion could do 30 knts but only for about 4,000 miles and then its top speed drops down to about 14 knts under nuke power only... so it would need a refuel 4,000 miles from base.

If they had powerful enough NPPs then they could sail at 30+ knts for as long as they like.

Their next big carrier will be all nuke propelled so any cruiser to operate with it will need to keep up or it will slow everything down...

I am not saying a change to NPP is easy or cheap, but it is the best option and potentially means more than two Kirov class ships can be upgraded.

Big_Gazza wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The first ship of the series has a Cracked Reactor the ship is done, it's a floating nuclear disaster right now, The Russians are not touching that thing. due to the fact they allowed it to sit in dock for all those years with that cracked reactor, it's posing a threat to organic life nearby it.

Anyone who thinks the Ushakov will get fixed has been dropped on their heads too many times.

ITS not going to be repaired nor is Lazarov, this issue is quite close and has been only two of the four kirov's are getting upgrades and you cannot just rip a reactor outta a warship and replace it. That shows a cross miss-understanding on how ship construction works.

Cracked Reactor?  What the fuck?  Is this Nuclear Engineering for Dummies?

Anyone have some actual facts about what is actually wrong with Ushakovs reactor, and what condition is has been left in throughout mothballing?  There are a whole spectrum of accident severities, ranging from (eg) a breakup of a reactor fuel rod(s) and consequent fuel contamination of the primary cooling loop, to a leaking coolant system, or in the worse case, a rupture of the containment vessel.  Repair complexity will depend on the specifics, and if there has been no loss of containment of the reactor internals to the ship equipment spaces, an overhaul isn't a surmountable task.

The fact that the Ushakov has been tied up at Zvezdochka for over 30 years without any major hull preservation works suggests she is in no danger of causing a incident, so that strongly suggests the preservation works on Lazarev was not due to any concern about her nuclear integrity.

The current condition of Ushakov and Lazarev are not known with any certainty based on public info, nor are there reliable cost estimates for their modernisation.  There are a lot of claims out there (eg Lazarev will cost equal to a Yasen class), but AFAIK they not backed with anything concrete.  If anyone has any reliable and informative sources, pls link.

LoL

"Experts and representatives of scientific associations have repeatedly stated in the media that nuclear fuel unloaded from the TARKR reactor "Admiral Ushakov" poses a danger to the environmental safety of the region. In 2013, the general director of "Star" Vladimir Nikitin said that the ship "is a certain threat to Severodvinsk and its residents."

that the ship "is a certain threat to Severodvinsk and its residents."

go look up on how its reactor got cracked and how worried they are about the ship. The reactor is has leaked for years that ship is a contaminated mess. Oh you prefer Russia spends billions trying to get it working and it's crew dieing from radiation posioning? get real holy shit.

The russian navy has stated very clearly the lead ship of the class will be scrapped this is not up for debate at all.


http://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/radioactive-waste-and-spent-nuclear-fuel/2014-06-long-time-push-dismantle-huge-soviet-nuclear-battleship-put

https://flot.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=166815

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/1144-list.htm

Any other idiot statements? I am tired of people here pretending they know wtf they are talking about. Cause your entire comment shows you don't. The first two ships of that series are done for, get over it. all your "they need to modernize these" posts amount to shit. The experts have spoken kid.

GarryB wrote:No, of course you can't take the propulsion system out of a ship and replace it... that is totally impossible... I mean they fix those things in there with superglue and duct tape... there is no way they could remove an old reactor and replace it with a new one.

Those who think the arrangement is clever... the very idea of complicating a ships design by having two completely different powerplants is interesting... a bit like having a small petrol engine in a car that is no quite powerful enough to drive at top speed on a motorway, so you add an extra electric engine in the vehicle so you run electric around the town and use a petrol engine when going fast on the motorway.

Actually that is sensible in a car when electric engines are not powerful enough to do everything, or lack endurance to be the sole power system of the vehicle.

The problem is that the Kirov with combined propulsion could do 30 knts but only for about 4,000 miles and then its top speed drops down to about 14 knts under nuke power only... so it would need a refuel 4,000 miles from base.

If they had powerful enough NPPs then they could sail at 30+ knts for as long as they like.

Their next big carrier will be all nuke propelled so any cruiser to operate with it will need to keep up or it will slow everything down...

I am not saying a change to NPP is easy or cheap, but it is the best option and potentially means more than two Kirov class ships can be upgraded.

I am going to say this once to you, replacing a nuclear reactor is a lot more than simply opening up the back of the vessel they would have to gut the entire thing, install so much more shit. Do you know how the reactors in the kirov are designed? I do.

Study ship construction, study how Nuclear reactors are installed then come back here and tell me shit okay?.

I am not going to sit here and pretend you have a goddam clue how any of that works when you don't, your opinion means nothing to me.

kvs wrote:Cracked reactor housing, OMG.  

More Bellona BS.   Where is the nuclear contamination?   Having some radioactive water leak is not the same as spreading
meltdown corium around.  

No the reactor it's self is cracked.....are you deranged or just delusional. you have any idea the kind of threat a cracked reactor has experts have said for years that ship is caused problems?.

you know nothing about how nuclear ships are built they are built with a series of special compartments that in the event the reactor suffers a meltdown or whatever they can seal these bulkheads to prevent major leakage. All Nuclear ships have are designed with this in mind, Kirov's are no different. Still, they cannot stop it one hundred percent and it's been reported that nuclear radiation is coming from the vessel.

the radiation is contained with the ship so far, they sealed all the bulkheads, everything when they abandoned it back in the 90's they are scared shitless to open the ship back up after all this time fearing what they would unleash. Since in the 90's Russia went to shit they never did anything about it when they should have, they just let that issue grow and grow and grow until it's turned into th problem they have today.

They don't know how to safely dispose of it.

Plus there is the issue of that 30 something-year-old nuclear fuel.

Zvezdochka CEO Vladimir Nikitin (dunno if he still is or not) has stated multiple times "One can concede that a definite threat emanates from this ship to Severovinsk and its inhabitants,”

So keep talking your BS

TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species

When you know how was russia after the ussr it's no suprise that they left it rust for 18 years. At least they will replace it with lider.

or you can spend a GINORMOUS sum of money to build a bigger NPP so it can travel 30kn for 25 years ... nah they made the pragmatic decision. Much lower risk, much lower cost and still an incredibly capable ship

They have already made the mistake of using under powered NPPs for large ships... the Kirov class... and their experience means they have developed a new generation of NPP designed for big heavy ships... they are currently putting some on their icebreakers.

Putting a NPP system on a big ship and then also putting another propulsion system on there to make it go fast enough to actually be useful is not a good solution... it was the only solution they had at the time... and not their first choice.

Now they have the proper propulsion system... they will likely go with combined NPP and electric drive... meaning no big heavy shaft drives, no expensive gears or transmissions... just put the heavy NPPs in the best places in the hull and electric pods in suitable places and you have a powerful and manouverable large vessel... in fact you have a few if you do the same to the kuznetsov and the Kirov class vessels worth saving.

Large cruisers are more useful than a carrier and can defend themselves so can go off on their own if needed... they are great for good will visits to allies and new potential trade partners.

go look up on how its reactor got cracked and how worried they are about the ship. The reactor is has leaked for years that ship is a contaminated mess. Oh you prefer Russia spends billions trying to get it working and it's crew dieing from radiation posioning? get real holy shit.

If the ships reactor is cracked and leaking then it NEEDS to be removed and dealt with... not left in place to continue leaking and deteriorating further.

I am going to say this once to you, replacing a nuclear reactor is a lot more than simply opening up the back of the vessel they would have to gut the entire thing, install so much more shit. Do you know how the reactors in the kirov are designed? I do.

OK... be a dickhead. Look up the word impossible in the dictionary and then get back to us... or not.

Study ship construction, study how Nuclear reactors are installed then come back here and tell me shit okay?.

Some sort of one way portal like a black hole I guess...

They don't know how to safely dispose of it.

Plus there is the issue of that 30 something-year-old nuclear fuel.

Pretty obvious... tow the thing to international waters and sink it in deep water like any evil superpower would and just deny all knowledge...

Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

You are not getting it... they don't need another Borei or another Yasen... what they need are ships bigger than a frigate.... most of which are going to be nuclear powered anyway.

That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it

They are going to have to test the electronics and sensors and systems of big ships at some stage... testing them in the next 5 years on upgraded existing ships, or in 10 years time on scratch new builds... which makes more sense?

The weapons can also be tested but in the most part will just be larger numbers of the systems on Frigates and Corvettes with the exception of the bigger guns and bigger missiles... (152mm guns and S-400 and S-500 missiles).

Yeah, Russians are all stupid and live in mud-huts... can't possibly figure out how to complicated stuff like decommission their own warships.... what a idiot...

The Russians can be stupid, but they were smart enough to work out what funding they could get from the west and what the west was not interested in funding.

ie the west will spend all the money in the world to destroy SS-18 missiles or Tu-160 bombers or Akula class SSBNs... even if it wont spend a cent to help Russian kids in orphanages or help hospitals get new drugs cheaper that might be useful...

Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

Why do you keep bringing up the US Navy?

Who gives a fuck what a Berk can do... if the Russian upgraded Kirovs are fighting American Berks then those Zircon missiles will have mostly nuke warheads... so how many US sailors will be dead before all 20-30 Zircons have launched?
And what is in the other 50-60 tubes?

Because that Yasen is probably most capable SSGN in existence. It can easily take out as many enemy vessels as Kirov and unlike Kirovs they are by default designed to operate alone.

Alone it will be dead much quicker than if operating with supporting friendly vessels.

Kirovs are great if you have access to Soviet sized navy and you have enough vessels to build a task force around them.

When a Frigate has the fire power of two cold war destroyers then the support of two or three destroyers and a couple of frigates would be plenty.

Even more important in the cold war those ships operating with the Kirov would rely on that Kirov to coordinate the defence of the group... today it would all be digital and every new node like a sub or corvette would contribute to that defence bringing weapons and sensors and systems to add.

And even at peak of it's power Soviet Navy still favored submarines over surface ships.

And that didn't matter because most of the Soviets allies were in eastern europe so land based connections to europe and asia could not be effected or affected...

In the next few years and decades Russia will need to look around the world for trade partners and if it wants to keep those trade routes open it had better be able to send a carrier group to keep it open... or the west will piss all over them...

Bleat on about USN Berks all you want but they wont try any blockade shit against a strong Russian Navy... if it only has subs however Russia will need to sink a US ship to have their say... is that going to happen?