Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
Then how is China exporting its missiles if they are duds like you are saying?Isos wrote:All the countries that produce such missiles have shown their tests. Chinese show nothing.
How do you know they are well made when these missiles have also never been tested?Isos wrote:Taiwan has its own designed missiles and are very well made because they put efforts during the creation as they start from 0.
Neither did Russian ones until they did (Syria)
I'll wait for Chinese to start shooting at something before forming opinion
If that Karakurt happens to be near Russian coastline under air cover (where it was designed to operate) then yes
Isos wrote:What is china exporting ? And who is buying them ? For using them and for having loans from China ?
They are tested. Taiwan is serious. Being a domestic design means they put all their efforts to maje it how they wanted it to be.
Chinese engineers put their effort to make a good copy.
Not the same goals.
Neither did Russian ones until they did (Syria)
I'll wait for Chinese to start shooting at something before forming opinion
You have plenty of video showing how their missiles hit intented targets. In Syria they worked very well. They flew at long ranges and hit their targets.
Even Iran shows the efficiency of their missiles.
Do you have any video of chinese missiles hitting a target ? Even during exercice ? They have like hundreds of different missiles (all version of russian copies) and seem to buy only kh-31 copies with okd p-15 copies.
If that Karakurt happens to be near Russian coastline under air cover (where it was designed to operate) then yes
If it has an external data about chinese positions it can destroy easily 5 or 6 ships with Tzirkon. Not counting reapelling air force attacks.
walle83 wrote:Isos wrote:Chinese missiles are failed copies of russian ones. They never showed their effectiveness.
I would rather be in a Karakurt with a pantsir than on a chinese destroyer.
Thats a real factual repond right there mate....not
China exported Type 054A frigates to Pakistan, JF-17 to Nigeria, Myanmmar. It's a trickle at the moment but the flood gates will be open soon. Once China has 6 carriers and 6 LHD China will have far more global influence and that means more export.
Isos wrote:China exported Type 054A frigates to Pakistan, JF-17 to Nigeria, Myanmmar. It's a trickle at the moment but the flood gates will be open soon. Once China has 6 carriers and 6 LHD China will have far more global influence and that means more export.
They bought them to have chinese loans. No one expect to win a war with that stuff.
Influence comes from softpower, not from carriers. Chinese ships far away from chinese coast are dead meat.
Frigates job is the same as Cruisers. A cruiser is just a bigger frigate with the frigate not supposed to have the number of missiles. That is also slowly changing too.
A frigate will strike then what? It's like how US launched all those tomahawks at Syria and even with a cruiser or two launches, it didn't do squat. At that point if a ship wanted to strike it, it would have little to nothing to defend itself.
If you are gonna have carriers, you are gonna need destroyers to escort them.
China actually built up its destroyers and frigates before building up carriers. Right now China is sitting on 30 Type 054A frigates. That's significantly more than 5 Admiral Gorshkov and Admiral Grigorivich frigates. You need at least 6 frigates to escort a single carrier.
This is mainly the reason Russia is retiring Admiral Kuznetsov and not building any large carrier, mainly due to lack of modern destroyers and frigates to escort large carriers, namely Russia has 0 modern destroyer and the 5 aforementioned modern frigates. As for weather Admiral Kuznetsov will be sold to China and refurbished in the next few years, time will tell.
Fyi, Kuznetsov was escorted by Grigorovich, gorshkovs and Russia's submarines.
Destroyers are necessary for escorting carriers.
That's why China can build new carriers whereas Russia can't due to lack of modern destroyers.
Chinese destroyers have CJ-10 which is said to be superior to Kalibr in performance.
Failed copies?? Why?? They have never been fired either.
Let them fire these missiles at the Indians and Taiwanese. Then we can judge their effectiveness.
Then how is China exporting its missiles if they are duds like you are saying?
In fact, Russia's arms export has fallen drastic in recent years.
Indonesia and Bangladesh both rejected Russian planes out of fear of CAATSA from the US.
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Isos wrote:Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.
Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.
3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.
You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.
Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.
And no one is afraid of chinese people.
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Isos wrote:Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.
Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.
3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.
You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.
Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.
And no one is afraid of chinese people.
walle83 wrote:Isos wrote:Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.
Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.
3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.
You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.
Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.
And no one is afraid of chinese people.
What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.
Total bs.
Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land.
miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov
The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.
So no, ISOs is correct.
Which aircraft did they reject? Indonesia operates Su 30s. Bangladesh operates Mig 29s.Tai Hai Chen wrote:Indonesia and Bangladesh both rejected Russian planes out of fear of CAATSA from the US.
miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov
The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.
So no, ISOs is correct.
HQ-16, C-803 have been exported to Pakistan. C -802 exported to Algeria, Silkworm ballistic missiles to Saudis.Isos wrote:What is china exporting ? And who is buying them ? For using them and for having loans from China ?
Tested against whom? Just because they design these missiles at home doesn't makes them great. Taiwan imports billions of $$ of weapons from U.S because they don't have the capability to design, manufacture top of the line military H/W.Isos wrote:They are tested. Taiwan is serious. Being a domestic design means they put all their efforts to maje it how they wanted it to be.
What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.
Total bs.
Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land
Russian arms sales are declining while Chinese arms sales are increasing. There isn't any major Russian arms export contract in the foreseeable future. The most recent one is Su-35 deal with Egypt. While China is exporting JF-17 to multiple countries recently. There isn't a big difference in arms sales between China and Russia at the moment.
Even Algeria chose Chinese warship over Russian warship. Case in point. Adhafer class.
Type 054B is going to be selling like hot cakes considering China's advanced shipyards which can churn out a frigate within months compared to Russian shipyards which takes about a decade to build a frigate.
HQ-16, C-803 have been exported to Pakistan. C -802 exported to Algeria, Silkworm ballistic missiles to Saudis.
Tested against whom? Just because they design these missiles at home doesn't makes them great. Taiwan imports billions of $$ of weapons from U.S because they don't have the capability to design, manufacture top of the line military H/W.
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walle83 wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov
The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.
So no, ISOs is correct.
Flies what, 6 planes? Russia might want to show of the su-57 as a finished fighter but in reality its still in development with several systems still not ready for serial production. 10 years after maiden flight.
Yes and when then Kuznetsov is back the chinese will have 3 carriers in service, one with catapults and a fourth one in construction, whats your point?
China is not perfect and not all thier different weapon platforms either, but just throwing shit out there just to make Russia sound superior is just redicluis.
Isos wrote:What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.
Total bs.
Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land
J-15 sucks. They don't want that fighter as their main carrier based fighter. It's a total failure.
J-31 was quickly made from f-35 stolen data. It's crap and now their working it out to make a decebt fighter but you cab't make gold out of crap. It's also based on f-35 which is also a failure.
I'm not saying they don't leave their waters. I say the reality is that they don't leave them. Their Lybia that financed was blow up and they lost billions and billions just like in Venezuela. Where were those mighty Chinese ships ? They already have as much ships as US and even more in numbers. What are they waiting to protect their interest. Paper dragon...
Su-57 is a total success. It will replace old fighters and be used to form a family of fighters like the su-27. China is still copying the su-27 and buying su35. Tells you a lot about their beautifull industry.
The Kuznetsov has russian sonar, has the tor and kashtans, granits and ASW rockets to protect itself. Udaloys have state of art sonars capable of tracking US Virginia and SeaWolf subs. Gorshkov everything better and soon Tzirkon. China has pathetic copies of the export versions of those systems. Get real they suck.
And above that most of their soldiers are farmers that have no idea how to fight a strong opponent.
walle83 wrote:Isos wrote:What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.
Total bs.
Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land
J-15 sucks. They don't want that fighter as their main carrier based fighter. It's a total failure.
J-31 was quickly made from f-35 stolen data. It's crap and now their working it out to make a decebt fighter but you cab't make gold out of crap. It's also based on f-35 which is also a failure.
I'm not saying they don't leave their waters. I say the reality is that they don't leave them. Their Lybia that financed was blow up and they lost billions and billions just like in Venezuela. Where were those mighty Chinese ships ? They already have as much ships as US and even more in numbers. What are they waiting to protect their interest. Paper dragon...
Su-57 is a total success. It will replace old fighters and be used to form a family of fighters like the su-27. China is still copying the su-27 and buying su35. Tells you a lot about their beautifull industry.
The Kuznetsov has russian sonar, has the tor and kashtans, granits and ASW rockets to protect itself. Udaloys have state of art sonars capable of tracking US Virginia and SeaWolf subs. Gorshkov everything better and soon Tzirkon. China has pathetic copies of the export versions of those systems. Get real they suck.
And above that most of their soldiers are farmers that have no idea how to fight a strong opponent.
How does the J-15 suck? Its a 4th generation night and day fighter built for carrier operations.
Its the first fighter in the class for the chinese and have had some initial child decises. It has had a total of 2 crashes, one was a result of bird strike.
Of course the chinese wants to replace it with a new 5th generation aircraft, the J-31 is one alternative there. Lets just wait and see untill we judge its capebilities.
The Su-57, yeah lets see in a few years and judge it then also. The forgien market hasnt shown much intrest in it, specialy after India left the project. The Su-57 shouldnt be compared against the J-15 either more the j-20.
China could have given thier carriers C-10, Y-12 missiles but choose not to. Why when they have escorts that can carry 10 times what kuznetsov ever could. Basicly they are going for the american navy concept insted of the russian there.
walle83 wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov
The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.
So no, ISOs is correct.
Flies what, 6 planes? Russia might want to show of the su-57 as a finished fighter but in reality its still in development with several systems still not ready for serial production. 10 years after maiden flight.
Yes and when then Kuznetsov is back the chinese will have 3 carriers in service, one with catapults and a fourth one in construction, whats your point?
China is not perfect and not all thier different weapon platforms either, but just throwing shit out there just to make Russia sound superior is just redicluis.
Su-57 is ready and already in production. Only system missing as you state (not multiple) is the new engine.
Even the old su35 engine makes it a great fighter. China has nothing that comes close to that engine, let alone the new engine. DerWolf and miketheterrible like this post
Isos wrote:Su-57 is ready and already in production. Only system missing as you state (not multiple) is the new engine.
And the engine they are making right now by copying the export version of the su-35's engine they bought won't help.
Russia was pissed off when they copied su-27 back in the 00s. Since then they probably make their stuff for China full of downgraded stuff and complicated the reverse engineering.
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