Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Frankly for the Ruskies I'd like to see 14 Yasens but 10 is what they should build minimum.

I checked it and "Ulyanovsk" will be the 4th Yasen for the Northern Fleet, while the remaining 3 will go to the Pacific, but I'm sure that both fleets will have a flottila/squadron of them (6-8 subs each).

TheArmenian wrote:BREAKING

2 Kilo class submarines (intended for the Pacific Fleet)  have been laid down at Admiralski Werf in St. Petersburg. The names are:

- PETROPAVLOVSK-KAMCHATSKY
- VOLKHOV
...................

Sweet, this is how you build ships, two of them simultaneously.  

I'm glad Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky is getting a ship named after it, that's a really cool looking town.

PapaDragon wrote:...The construction of Russia’s universal fifth-generation Husky-class multi-purpose nuclear submarine is expected to begin in 2023-2024...

https://sputniknews.com/military/201707281055958464-russia-fifth-generation-nuclear-submarine/


That's plenty of time for double digit Yasens and definitely for double digit Boreis (maybe even SSGN variant of Borei in the mix)

What do more knowledgeable than me among you guys think? 

I wouldn't consider myself "more knowledgeable", but an SSGN variant of Borei would be an awesome idea, NATO dogs will definitely not make any stupid moves with a few of those around.

And yea, Yasen needs double digits at least 20.

AlfaT8..... wrote:
And yea, Yasen needs double digits at least 20.

I don't know about 20 since the do cost a pretty penny but 10 would be minimum in order for it to be efficient.

A year from now they will have an empty slot in that shipyard so what do they do with it? They can't just leave it empty (I mean they could but c'mon?)

That means that they will have at least 5 years time between Ulyanovsk and first planned Husky.

What do they do in the meantime? More Yasens is only thing that makes sense. That or Boreis but that could cut into nuclear treaties. Unless of course they create SSGN version of Borei.

But I still think that more Yasens make most sense. Huskies are clearly being pushed back (smart move) and they still need to build nuke subs there.

BREAKING NEWS

The first pr. 22800 Karakurt.
URAGAN at Pella shipyard. Ready for launch tomorrow.

PapaDragon wrote:

AlfaT8..... wrote:
And yea, Yasen needs double digits at least 20.

I don't know about 20 since the do cost a pretty penny but 10 would be minimum in order for it to be efficient.

A year from now they will have an empty slot in that shipyard so what do they do with it? They can't just leave it empty (I mean they could but c'mon?)

That means that they will have at least 5 years time between Ulyanovsk and first planned Husky.

What do they do in the meantime? More Yasens is only thing that makes sense. That or Boreis but that could cut into nuclear treaties. Unless of course they create SSGN version of Borei.

But I still think that more Yasens make most sense. Huskies are clearly being pushed back (smart move) and they still need to build nuke subs there.

I'd think they'd go with more Yasens, the SSGN Borei is a nice idea, but i think the RuN will go with Yasen simply because it's more versatile, we'll see.

BTW, are you arguing with yourself in the upper part or am i reading this wrong??

TheArmenian wrote:BREAKING NEWS

The first pr. 22800 Karakurt.
URAGAN at Pella shipyard. Ready for launch tomorrow.

Pretty looking ship.

So no Pantsir ?? Decepointing when we know it was exposed. They could have test it on this ship.

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

AlfaT8..... wrote:
And yea, Yasen needs double digits at least 20.

I don't know about 20 since the do cost a pretty penny but 10 would be minimum in order for it to be efficient.

A year from now they will have an empty slot in that shipyard so what do they do with it? They can't just leave it empty (I mean they could but c'mon?)

That means that they will have at least 5 years time between Ulyanovsk and first planned Husky.

What do they do in the meantime? More Yasens is only thing that makes sense. That or Boreis but that could cut into nuclear treaties. Unless of course they create SSGN version of Borei.

But I still think that more Yasens make most sense. Huskies are clearly being pushed back (smart move) and they still need to build nuke subs there.

I'd think they'd go with more Yasens, the SSGN Borei is a nice idea, but i think the RuN will go with Yasen simply because it's more versatile, we'll see.

BTW, are you arguing with yourself in the upper part or am i reading this wrong??

Part about empty shipyard slot?  Yup, arguing with myself.

AS PROMISED

The first pr. 22800 URAGAN is launched

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/96276/

Lider destroyer construction will start no earlier than 2025 so in the meantime my guess it's Gorshkovs all the way

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201707291055993360-russia-destroyer-nuclear/

PapaDragon wrote:Lider destroyer construction will start no earlier than 2025 so in the meantime my guess it's Gorshkovs all the way

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201707291055993360-russia-destroyer-nuclear/

Let's hope that also includes the Super-Gorshkov.

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Lider destroyer construction will start no earlier than 2025 so in the meantime my guess it's Gorshkovs all the way

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201707291055993360-russia-destroyer-nuclear/

Let's hope that also includes the Super-Gorshkov.

Even standard ones would be more than enough, they really need to get their act together.

Standard Gorshkovs are for maintaining current capability or slightly improving it which should be enough for now. Super Gorshkovs and Liders are for significant expansion.

But you need to sort out maintaining before you even try expanding.

PapaDragon wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Lider destroyer construction will start no earlier than 2025 so in the meantime my guess it's Gorshkovs all the way

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201707291055993360-russia-destroyer-nuclear/

Let's hope that also includes the Super-Gorshkov.

Even standard ones would be more than enough, they really need to get their act together.

Standard Gorshkovs are for maintaining current capability or slightly improving it which should be enough for now. Super Gorshkovs and Liders are for significant expansion.

But you need to sort out maintaining before you even try expanding.

Well it currently take 11 years between laying down and commissioning a Gorshkov. As if it is a 100,000 ton, nuclear-powered CV
Even if they cut that at half, they'll still end up with with four (4) of these light destroyers by 2025. All in the northern fleet.

Slow is an understatement. Makes the Type 45 look good.

Maybe it's time Russia starts ordering the hulls from Korea, tow them to Vladivostok to finish them up. That is a if they want a proper fleet and not a collection of patrol boats, corvettes, light frigates and OPVs in 2030. When Udaloys and Sovs will be long gone (in smoke possibly ).

You mean 4 by 2020? They have already launched 2. It really shouldn't take longer than that. If they'll commission Gorshkov this year and Kasatonov in 2018. The construction of Golovko and Isakov didn't start that much later and they can probably improve the pace atleast a bit.

It certainly will be much closer to 2020 than 2025. I think they were talking about a mininum of 6 by 2025.

And as PapaDragon has said numerous times, the years before 2010 (or even 2012) simply don't exist when it comes to Russia's naval construction. They don't count.

Why would refurbished Sovs and Slavas be 'long gone' in 2030? They'll last until 2030-35. I think that's the plan.

Kimppis wrote:You mean 4 by 2020? They have already launched 2.

But laid down only 4 in total. So if they lay down a 5th early next year, it won't be till 2024 till it's commissioned (assume a ~6 years gap, which is way optimistic given their current pace of 11 years). I'm not aware if they've progressed that much.

Kimppis wrote:Why would refurbished Sovs and Slavas be 'long gone' in 2030? They'll last until 2030-35. I think that's the plan.

Udaloys and Sovs should be gone by 2030. If they value their men and cash. The "Slavas" are only three boats to begin with, and they will be present, as Russia seems to be unable to build heavy destroyers and cruisers anymore. They already struggle with the frigates and light destroyers.

Yes? So 6 Gorshkovs by 2025, not 4?

Why would they need to do that? Those ships aren't even that old. I thought it was obvious that (some) of them are going to last until 2030.

My crystal ball:

2030:

2 Improved Kirovs
2 Liders
6 Super-Gorshkovs
4 Gorshkovs
+
4 Slavas and Sovs (to be replaced by Liders by 2035, the 2 last Liders will replace Kirovs by 2040-45)
= 18 ships

Something like that LOL.
Doesn't look bad at all. Even with a slightly smaller number of newer vessels (if that list sounds too optimistic).

Kimppis wrote:Yes? So 6 Gorshkovs by 2025, not 4?

A 5th by the end of 2024 and 6th by late 2025. But they need to lay them down right now, in yearly succession.

Kimppis wrote:Why would they need to do that? Those ships aren't even that old. I thought it was obvious that (some) of them are going to last until 2030.

Their engines are quite old. I doubt they'll make it to 2030.

Kimppis wrote:My crystal ball:

2030:

2 Improved Kirovs

Agreed.

Kimppis wrote:2 Liders

I'm gonna go with 1 (+1 in construction).

Kimppis wrote:6 Super-Gorshkovs
4 Gorshkovs

4 more Gorshkovs is doable by then. I'd put 1 more Super Gorshkov (+3 in construction)

Kimppis wrote:+
4 Slavas and Sovs (to be replaced by Liders by 2035, the 2 last Liders will replace Kirovs by 2040-45)

I'd put 3 Slavas there, which previously mentioned Super Gorshkovs can replace together with 2 Liders.
The Kirovs could possibly stay active through 2040.

You mean 8 Gorshkovs and 1 Super-Gorshkov in service?

Because I thought they wouldn't order any additional (standard) Gorshkovs after the first 4. But I have no idea to be honest...

Kimppis wrote:You mean 8 Gorshkovs and 1 Super-Gorshkov in service?

Because I thought they wouldn't order any additional (standard) Gorshkovs after the first 4. But I have no idea to be honest...

Yeah they could have 8 Gorshkov by 2030, plus a Super-G if they expand ship building capacity by 2025 (God know where and how). If they don't order more than those 4 then.. I don't have a baseline to project anything.

Plans now are for 4 Gorskhovs and then 10 Super Gorskhovs.

franco wrote:Plans now are for 4 Gorskhovs and then 10 Super Gorskhovs.

Super Gorshkov will be of destroyer class undoubtedly

George1 wrote:

franco wrote:Plans now are for 4 Gorskhovs and then 10 Super Gorskhovs.

Super Gorshkov will be of destroyer class undoubtedly

Difficult to say, could depend on the role of the ship. A frigate designation in Russia is actually a "Guard ship". Hence a corvette like 20380 is designated a Guard ship also. But as per size, the Sovremenny Class destroyers displace 7940 tonnes full load.

Gorshkov: light destroyer
Super-Gorshkov: medium destroyer
Lider: heavy destroyer


So atleast 4 + 10 + 8 = 22. Looks good!

But I really think they need to order more Grigorovich sized vessels. Proper frigates, just like the Chinese Type 054A-class. Atleast 20 of those. Although I noticed many of their heavier (mostly upcoming) "corvettes" are basically light frigates. 24 VLS, that's not a corvette, that's almost a frigate (a good thing, obviously).

Kimppis wrote:.......

But I really think they need to order more Grigorovich sized vessels. Proper frigates, just like the Chinese Type 054A-class. Atleast 20 of those. Although I noticed many of their heavier (mostly upcoming) "corvettes" are basically light frigates. 24 VLS, that's not a corvette, that's almost a frigate (a good thing, obviously).  

You are right about Grigorevich class, now with engine issues resolved this class has become viable agan but are also getting long in the tooth.

What they need to do is to give them Steregushi/Gremashi/Derzkii "treatment"

They need an upgrade but one that does not make too many changes and gets done fast. They need to keep the hull and propulsion intact and make changes to upper part of the ship to trim down radar signature, add another UKSK set and update sonars, radar and weapons with off-the-shelf products (Palash and maybe even Redut if it doesn't break the bank)


Also there is one important thing to remember when discussing Gorshkov class frigates: we have no idea what their actual build time under current conditions is because nobody has managed to clock it properly yet.

Think about it:

-construction started in 2006 during zero military financing
-had God knows how many bureaucratic delays in the early days (remember Ivan Gren?)
-Ukrainian engine problems as usual
-standard development problems on top of all that (like Redut performance)

Second vessel had similar issues. Those issues are now pretty much resolved but it will not be until third ship is completed that we will know how much actual time is required to build Gorshkov class frigate.

Just something to keep in mind when throwing timeframes around.