Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers

Big_Gazza wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:
Overall, looking at the situation, Corvettes have been going well, Frigates are being resolved, destroyers are in planning and so are Carriers.
As for Cruisers, i don't think so, the Lider and SG would probably be more than enough.

Personally, I think the traditional Western classification of Corvette/Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser is so archaic as to be useless.  Lider @ 17,500T (?) is being touted as a "Destroyer", yet the old Kara Class "Cruisers" were only 9,700 full load.  I much prefer the old Soviet style of functional designations like Small/Large Anti-Submarine Ship,  Rocket Cruisers, Heavy Nuclear-Powered Guided Missile Cruiser, or Heavy Aviation Cruiser.  

While on this subject, do the Russians still use officially use such a designation system, or have they "conformed" to the banal western practice?

Yes they mostly still use the Soviet designation system. There have been some changes

Buyan is a MAK (small artillery ship)
Buyan-M is a MRK (small missile ship)
Stereguschyj is a Malyj SKR (small patrol vessel)
Lider is an Eskadrennyj minonosets (destroyer; or literally 'squadron torpedo-layer' which is the historical Russian name and use for these ships dating back to the turn of the 20th century.. still used, and during the Soviet period too).

On the other hand Gorshkov and Grigorovich class vessels are of type fregat (frigate). In Soviet times you didn't have this term and they would have been given a more functional designation such as small anti-submarine ship or patrol vessel. However times and technologies have changed and this new definition has been introduced; and it makes more sense because ships of this size or larger (and some smaller ones) are these days fully multirole and can be used for air-defence coverage, for anti-sub duties, for missile strikes against both land and sea targets, for anti-piracy patrols, etc...

Nasr Hosein wrote:
Speaking of "bigger yards", I have searched (unsuccessfully) for information regarding any intent or plans by Russia to expand its shipbuilding industry to facilitate building large combat ships like Destroyers, Aircraft Carriers and Cruisers. Are there such plans in the foreseeable future?

No offense but you need to increase your googling skill. Giving you a head start, type "Zvezda shipyard" and read what Rogozin said about it.

Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea for the Russian Navy as of 01.10.2017



https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/171587.html

Ship composition and construction of naval strategic nuclear forces of the Russian Navy as of 01.10.2017




The ship's composition of the Russian Navy (warships of 1-2 rank, NK - from 2,000 tons full) as of 01.10.2017





https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/171793.html
https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/172171.html

Commissions and Decommissions of Russian combat ships (Russian Navy plus some militarizable ship of the Russian Coast Guard)

2016 Decommissions: Total = 3

1 Project 877 Conventiona Submarine (commissioned 1984)
1 Project 641B Conventional Submarine (commissioned 1982)
1 Project 12421 Missile Boat (commissioned 2000, sale to Egypt)

2016 Commissions: Total = 5

2 Project 06363 Conventional Submarine
2 Project 11356 Frigate
1 Project 12700 Minesweeper

2017 Decommisssions: Total = 2

1 Project 12411 Missile Boat (commissioned 1987) ** previously reported as decommissioned in 2016
1 Project 11351 Frigate (commissioned 1991, Russian Coast Guard)

2017 Commissions: Total = 2

1 Project 20380/20385 Frigate/Corvette
1 Project 11356 Frigate

Still there are early decommissions, but the amount of decommissions and commissions is reaching a situation of ballance. The process of reduction of the combat fleet seems being finnished.

The early decommissions of combat ships should stop fast, they are a sign of Russia comming from a process of reduction of its combat fleet, but in overall terms are not a good business.

After the process of selection and reduction of the combat ships done in the last decades, now Russia has a young combat fleet, with only a few old ships that need replacement in the short/mid-term, or in other words, under the State Armament Program 2018-2025.

As consequence a slow rythm of production of new ships and replacement of the oldest ships is to be expected until 2025, with the main focus for Russia in the development of new projects that assure to Russia the hability of building modern ships of every type by then.

The construction of ships equipped with cruise missiles will become a priority in the development of the Navy for the next decade. This was stated today, as reported by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov.
"The main emphasis in the coming decade will be made on the construction of ships of 'near sea zone", equipped with precision weapons, including cruise missiles," Borisov said at a meeting with the leadership of the Navy and representatives of the United Shipbuilding Corporation. ..
Borisov also stressed that the development will receive a strategic nuclear fleet, repair and modernization of the ships of "the far sea zone" (nuclear missile cruisers) Admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great. http://www.ng.ru/news/601420.html?print=Y

Nothing was said about the Lider class & CV/CVN types among other priorities. Economic situation is unsertain, so r the naval construction plans for those.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

The construction of ships equipped with cruise missiles will become a priority in the development of the Navy for the next decade. This was stated today, as reported by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov.
"The main emphasis in the coming decade will be made on the construction of ships of 'near sea zone", equipped with precision weapons, including cruise missiles," Borisov said at a meeting with the leadership of the Navy and representatives of the United Shipbuilding Corporation. ..
Borisov also stressed that the development will receive a strategic nuclear fleet, repair and modernization of the ships of "the far sea zone" (nuclear missile cruisers) Admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great. http://www.ng.ru/news/601420.html?print=Y

Nothing was said about the Lider class & CV/CVN types among other priorities. Economic situation is unsertain, so r the naval construction plans for those.

Navy is the least important branch to Russia so that's to be expected

Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea for the Russian Navy as of 01.12.2017


https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/176772.html#cutid1


The ship's composition of the Russian Navy (warships of 1-2 rank, NK - from 2,000 tons full) as of 01.12.2017




https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/177219.html#cutid1

The most massive ship in this segment will be a modernized frigate project 22350M, equipped with high-precision weapons, "said the commander-in-chief. A series of frigates of the base project 22350 has been built for more than ten years at Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg. The head frigate Admiral Gorshkov was laid back in 2006. His transfer to the fleet was repeatedly postponed, but, according to the latest data, the ship will enter service by the end of this year.
The ship is equipped with a universal missile system Caliber-NK with an ammunition of 32 Onyx or Caliber missiles with the possibility of engaging sea and coastal targets, the Polite-Redut anti-aircraft missile system, the Paket complex, one 130- mm artillery A-192, two missile and artillery systems of self-defense "Palash". The aviation armament consists of a Ka-27PL helicopter.
The second and third frigate of the project - "Admiral Kasatonov" and "Admiral Golovko" - will be included in the Navy in 2018 and 2019 respectively.
http://www.ng.ru/news/602670.html?print=Y

No surprise here! How many more years before they'll have the #s to form a CBG?

Tsavo Lion wrote:

The most massive ship in this segment will be a modernized frigate project 22350M, equipped with high-precision weapons, "said the commander-in-chief. A series of frigates of the base project 22350 has been built for more than ten years at Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg. The head frigate Admiral Gorshkov was laid back in 2006. His transfer to the fleet was repeatedly postponed, but, according to the latest data, the ship will enter service by the end of this year.
The ship is equipped with a universal missile system Caliber-NK with an ammunition of 32 Onyx or Caliber missiles with the possibility of engaging sea and coastal targets, the Polite-Redut anti-aircraft missile system, the Paket complex, one 130- mm artillery A-192, two missile and artillery systems of self-defense "Palash". The aviation armament consists of a Ka-27PL helicopter.
The second and third frigate of the project - "Admiral Kasatonov" and "Admiral Golovko" - will be included in the Navy in 2018 and 2019 respectively.
http://www.ng.ru/news/602670.html?print=Y

No surprise here! How many more years before they'll have the #s to form a CBG?

Last time Bondarev said that no earlier then STOVL either will be developed. I.e. by current procurement programme.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:

The most massive ship in this segment will be a modernized frigate project 22350M, equipped with high-precision weapons, "said the commander-in-chief. A series of frigates of the base project 22350 has been built for more than ten years at Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg. The head frigate Admiral Gorshkov was laid back in 2006. His transfer to the fleet was repeatedly postponed, but, according to the latest data, the ship will enter service by the end of this year.
The ship is equipped with a universal missile system Caliber-NK with an ammunition of 32 Onyx or Caliber missiles with the possibility of engaging sea and coastal targets, the Polite-Redut anti-aircraft missile system, the Paket complex, one 130- mm artillery A-192, two missile and artillery systems of self-defense "Palash". The aviation armament consists of a Ka-27PL helicopter.
The second and third frigate of the project - "Admiral Kasatonov" and "Admiral Golovko" - will be included in the Navy in 2018 and 2019 respectively.
http://www.ng.ru/news/602670.html?print=Y

No surprise here! How many more years before they'll have the #s to form a CBG?

Last time Bondarev said that no earlier then STOVL either will be developed. I.e. by current procurement programme.

As far as i read in other sources, project 22350 frigates should have only 16 universal launcher for onyx or caliber...

As far as i read in other sources, project 22350 frigates should have only 16 universal launcher for onyx or caliber...

It would need reasonable changes to warrant an M name change upgrade and considering the performance of Calibr I would think increasing the number of UKSK launchers from 2 to 4 would make sense.

Update of the combat ships under construction by the begin of 2018 (ordered before the begin of the rule of the State Armament Program 2018-2025).

The following list includes all the combat ships under production, no matter the timeline. Some of the ships maybe for export, but the buyer is not clear still. The list includes not reparations. The list includes not auxiliary ships for the Russian Navy, and between them, includes not low armed patrol ships.

By generic role:

48 - Warships:
1 - Project 11540 Frigate (2 more not-completed)
3 - Project 11356 Frigate
1 - Project 11660/11661 Frigate (1 more not-completed)
9 - Project 20380/20385 Frigate/Corvette
6 - Project 21631 Corvette (1 more not completed)
6 - Project 22350 Destroyer/Frigate
11 - Project 22800 Corvette
6 - Project 22160 Frigate
2 - Project 20386 Frigate/Corvette
2 - Project 23550 Destroyer/Frigate
1 - Project 23560 Cruiser/Destroyer
0 - Project 23000 Aircraft Carrier

21 - Submarines:
1 - Project 949/09852 Nuclear Submarine (5 more not-completed)
6 - Project 636/06363/877/08773 Conventional Submarine (2 more not-completed)
2 - Project 677 Conventional Submarine
5 - Project 955 Nuclear Submarine
6 - Project 885/08851 Nuclear Submarine
1 - Project 09851 Nuclear Submarine

9 - Amphibious:
1 - Project 11770/11771 (Azov shipyard, Mariupol)
6 - Project 21820
2 - Project 11711

17 - Minesweepers:
3 - Project 1265 (1 more not-completed)
6 - Project 10750
1 - Project 12255 (1 more not-completed)
7 - Project 12700

7 - Missile Boats:
6 - Project 12411/12417/12418/1241RE Missile Boat
1 - Project 12300 Missile Boat

102 - Ships under construction (13 more not-completed) Some maybe to export.



The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Crusier/Destroyer seems to be under construction. Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

To note that to have the first unit of the Project 23560 under construction at this point, means that this is a ship under construction under the State Armament Program 2011-2020. Likely thanks to the Mistral funds.

As commented before, Russia is becoming ready to afford the high number of decommissions that should come after 2024 and more intensely after 2030. Until then the rythm of commissions and decommissions of combat ships is being low, as expected, as planned.

I do not expect cancellations. It means economic loses. Even the ships with longer timeline under construction should be completed for the Russian Navy or to export, in order to avoid loses.

Now, the minimum number of orders of new ships necessary for Russia to reach a capability of building every type of combat ship by the end of 2025, would be 1 unit of the Project 23000 Aircraft Carrier. In my opinion this is an important goal for Russia and will be assured. If the first unit of the Project 23000 begins also under the State Armament Program 2011-2020 it would not be necessary orders of big ships under the State Armament Program 2018-2025.

Now pl. tell us what is ur definition of "under production".
Clue: only something a person in the yard can touch, not read from some document.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Now pl. tell us what is ur definition of "under production".
Clue: only something a person in the yard can touch, not read from some document.

Ignore him the guy is delusional heck he has the Project 22350 listed has a DD. When that ship is not comparable to a DD

To him under construction is apparently if some website says so, despite there being no source what so ever

SeigSoloyvov wrote:he has the Project 22350 listed has a DD. When that ship is not comparable to a DD

The Russian Navy has it listed as a destroyer so are they wrong?

The-thing-next-door wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:he has the Project 22350 listed has a DD. When that ship is not comparable to a DD

The Russian Navy has it listed as a destroyer so are they wrong?

And where do they have listed as a DD because I have never seen them ever officially call it a DD because if they consider that a DD whoever is in charge of their planning now needs a bullet in his head.

eehnie wrote:Project 20380/20385 Frigate/Corvette
Project 22350 Destroyer/Frigate
Project 20386 Frigate/Corvette
Project 23560 Cruiser/Destroyer

This notation means that while these warships receive an official designation they are in a size cathegory habitually formed by warships of other cathegory:

The Project 23560 are designed Destroyer, while they are ships over 10000 tons.
The Project 22350 are considered Frigates, while they are ships between 5000 and 10000 tons.
The Project 20380/20385 are considered Corvettes, while they are ships between 1500 and 5000 tons.
The Project 20386 are designed Corvettes, while they are ships between 1500 and 5000 tons.

The reason of this notation is that despite its official designations:

The Project 23560 are likely to replace other ships over 10000 tons => Cruisers.
The Project 22350 are likely to replace other ships between 5000 and 10000 tons => Destroyers (+ Project 1134B Cruiser)
The Project 20380/20385 are likely to replace other ships between 1500 and 5000 tons => Frigates (+ Project 61/01090 Destroyer)
The Project 20386 are likely to replace other ships between 1500 and 5000 tons => Frigates (+ Project 61/01090 Destroyer)

eehnie wrote:

eehnie wrote:Project 20380/20385 Frigate/Corvette
Project 22350 Destroyer/Frigate
Project 20386 Frigate/Corvette
Project 23560 Cruiser/Destroyer

This notation means that while these warships receive an official designation they are in a size cathegory habitually formed by warships of other cathegory:

The Project 23560 are designed Destroyer, while they are ships over 10000 tons.
The Project 22350 are considered Frigates, while they are ships between 5000 and 10000 tons.
The Project 20380/20385 are considered Corvettes, while they are ships between 1500 and 5000 tons.
The Project 20386 are designed Corvettes, while they are ships between 1500 and 5000 tons.

The reason of this notation is that despite its official designations:

The Project 23560 are likely to replace other ships over 10000 tons => Cruisers.
The Project 22350 are likely to replace other ships between 5000 and 10000 tons => Destroyers (+ Project 1134B Cruiser)
The Project 20380/20385 are likely to replace other ships between 1500 and 5000 tons => Frigates (+ Project 61/01090 Destroyer)
The Project 20386 are likely to replace other ships between 1500 and 5000 tons => Frigates (+ Project 61/01090 Destroyer)

To note that the Project 1204 boats are very likely to be replaced by bigger warships.

Project 23560 are paper ships until they start appearing those cannot be considered fact.

Project 22350's are about 5k Until a super Gork is laid down the class does not exceed that.

The 20380 and 85's are at most 2.5k Tons 5k you drunk?.

20386 cannot replace frigates they are way to lightly armed and aren't multi-role ships

All the ships you are naming are horrible outgunned to be in such categories.

Russia only has what five surface ships that go past 10k Tons.

Their "DD" are relics and do not have modern weapons, and are at most 7k tons.

Their Crusiers are at the size of basic DD's at around 10k tons.

Only the Kirov class size fit's it's designation.

the vast majority of the Russian surface fleet is made up of 5k plus or under ships with a bunch of aging relics that need to be modernized and even then are only a stop gap measure at best.

eehnie's naval "projections" have been full of shit lately, but come on...

He simply said that Gorshkovs are 5000 tons and Super-Gorshkovs are above that, hence those ships are going to be between 5000 and 10,000 tons.

The project 20380 ships are corvettes, which he defines as ships that are between 1500 and 5000 tons. He didn't say that 20380s are exactly or even close to 5000 tons. Do you disagree?

It seems it can also be argued that 20386s are "frigates", to a large extent anyway. Corvettes with 24 VLS? Those are some very heavily armed "corvettes". And probably partially for that reason the Russians have not ordered additional Grigorovich-class ships. EDIT: And btw, so are those 20380... heavy corvettes, atleast.

Are you also seriously arguing that classes like Type 052D and Type 45 are not destroyers? That destroyers have to be as heavy as ABs, close to 10,000 tons? Are Type 055s destroyers or cruisers? The Chinese call them "destroyers". How about Zumwalts?

Kirovs don't actually fit any category... They are much bigger and more heavily armed than Ticos... So if Kirovs just simply fit their "designation", then are Ticos not cruisers?

IMO, even the standard Gorshkov is sort of a light destroyer and the super-Gorshkovs are certainly going to be destroyers. Also, the 20386s are too heavy to be simply designated as corvettes. 1:1 comparisons between Gorshkovs and ABs are BS, the Russian Navy is not going to face its American counterpart outside the range of Russia's anti-access and land-based assets. Similarly 1:1 comparing China's Type 052D to ABs is IMO misleading...

Kimppis wrote:...

All the construction numbers that I posted are based on data of public sources. I included not the sources to avoid to put decens of links, but do not try to look cool at my cost or you will have all the links here.

You seems to have a little better understanding than Seig Soloyvov, who is desperately trying to reject all because there is public data that says what he dislikes. Still, I defined not Corvettes as ships between 1500 and 5000 tons (habitually the Corvettes are between 500 and 1500 tons).

Kimppis wrote:eehnie's naval "projections" have been full of shit lately, but come on...

He simply said that Gorshkovs are 5000 tons and Super-Gorshkovs are above that, hence those ships are going to be between 5000 and 10,000 tons.

The project 20380 ships are corvettes, which he defines as ships that are between 1500 and 5000 tons. He didn't say that 20380s are exactly or even close to 5000 tons. Do you disagree?

It seems it can also be argued that 20386s are "frigates", to a large extent anyway. Corvettes with 24 VLS? Those are some very heavily armed "corvettes". And probably partially for that reason the Russians have not ordered additional Grigorovich-class ships. EDIT: And btw, so are those 20380... heavy corvettes, atleast.

Are you also seriously arguing that classes like Type 052D and Type 45 are not destroyers? That destroyers have to be as heavy as ABs, close to 10,000 tons? Are Type 055s destroyers or cruisers? The Chinese call them "destroyers". How about Zumwalts?

Kirovs don't actually fit any category... They are much bigger and more heavily armed than Ticos... So if Kirovs just simply fit their "designation", then are Ticos not cruisers?

IMO, even the standard Gorshkov is sort of a light destroyer and the super-Gorshkovs are certainly going to be destroyers. Also, the 20386s are too heavy to be simply designated as corvettes. 1:1 comparisons between Gorshkovs and ABs are BS, the Russian Navy is not going to face its American counterpart outside the range of Russia's anti-access and land-based assets. Similarly 1:1 comparing China's Type 052D to ABs is IMO misleading...

Has of right now Gorks are only 5k when a super is laid down then fine, that s what it said. Until the ship becomes a physical thing I don't count paper stats.

The Project 20386's while around 3.4k tons and about 4k when fully loaded are very lightly armed most of their VLS is made up of Redut less then half it's VLS is kalibers the ship is very lightly armed for a ship of that size and again the ship is incapable of proper multi-functionality in terms of weapons. It isn't a proper frigate, I think those ships are very nice corvettes sure but they are vastly inferior to proper frigates.

Yes those are DD's and yes the Uda and Sol class are the size of light DD's however they aren't capable at all of filling a DD role these days. Their weapons are dated and they are designed to do a singular task. The sols were designed to be anti-ship and the uda anti sub however when compared to the DD's of today they fall WAAAAAAAAY behind. So while you can consider them DD's they aren't modern DD's by any account. Those ships were never intended to remain in service this long, if the USSR still existed they would have been replaced ages ago.

I consider Zumwalts Cruisers. Just like the Lider isn't a DD but a Cruiser.

Kirov is battlecruisers, their size fits this. They are way to big to be cruisers.

Standard Gorks aren't light DD's they have roughly half the weapon count as a DD does and this makes sense these are frigates after all that is how it was intended.

eehnie wrote:

eehnie wrote:Project 20380/20385 Frigate/Corvette
Project 22350 Destroyer/Frigate
Project 20386 Frigate/Corvette
Project 23560 Cruiser/Destroyer

This notation means that while these warships receive an official designation they are in a size cathegory habitually formed by warships of other cathegory:

The Project 23560 are designed Destroyer, while they are ships over 10000 tons.
The Project 22350 are considered Frigates, while they are ships between 5000 and 10000 tons.
The Project 20380/20385 are considered Corvettes, while they are ships between 1500 and 5000 tons.
The Project 20386 are designed Corvettes, while they are ships between 1500 and 5000 tons.

The reason of this notation is that despite its official designations:

The Project 23560 are likely to replace other ships over 10000 tons => Cruisers.
The Project 22350 are likely to replace other ships between 5000 and 10000 tons => Destroyers (+ Project 1134B Cruiser)
The Project 20380/20385 are likely to replace other ships between 1500 and 5000 tons => Frigates (+ Project 61/01090 Destroyer)
The Project 20386 are likely to replace other ships between 1500 and 5000 tons => Frigates (+ Project 61/01090 Destroyer)

To note that the Project 1204 boats are very likely to be replaced by bigger warships.

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm
Project 23560: 14000 tons => over 10000 tons
Designed Destroyer, but of size of Cruisers. Examples of smaller Cruisers:
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_1164.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_1134b.htm

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_22350.htm
Project 22350: 5400 tons => between 5000 and 10000 tons
Project 22350M (called super Gorshkov): weight not specified in the source.
Considered Frigate, but of size of Destroyers. Examples of smaller Destroyers:
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_61.htm (Project 01090)
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_57bis.htm (retired today)

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_20380.htm
Project 20380: 2100 tons => between 1500 and 5000 tons
Project 20385: 2300 tons => between 1500 and 5000 tons
Considered Corvettes, but of size of Frigates. Examples of smaller Frigates:
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_22160.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_11661.htm

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_20386.htm
Project 20386: 3400 tons => between 1500 and 5000 tons
Designed Corvette, but of size of Frigates. Example of smaller Frigate:
Considered Corvettes, but of size of Frigates. Examples of smaller Frigates:
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_22160.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_11661.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_1135.htm

To note that in the previous links the data about ship construction of the different models are in agreement with the data posted in my previous message.

Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea for the Russian Navy as of 01.01.2018