PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

The more pointed and conical rear belong to T-50-1, the first prototype, it houses a small parachute to recover the plane from deep stalls and spins to test the aerodynamic and controlability limits of the aircraft. All other prototypes have the flater rear, which is the standart.

Thanks for the info, it was the first time that I see this.

George1 wrote:

ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 19. /TASS/. The pre-production batch of T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets will equal 12 planes, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Head Yuri Slyusar said at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Wednesday.

"From the very outset, we proceeded from the fact that the final decision had been made on 12 planes," he said.

More:
http://tass.com/defense/956950

ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 19. /TASS/. The research and development work on Russia’s PAK FA (Perspective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) fighter jet (T-50) will be completed in 2019, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Chief Yuri Slyusar said at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Wednesday.

"In 2019, we should begin the delivery of a pre-production batch of [T-50] planes. This is the year when we should complete the R&D work on the PAK FA," he said.

More:
http://tass.com/defense/956948

Why the delay of 2 years? I thought all components were ready for mass productions and painstakingly tested.

Type 30 engines aren't ready yet.

miketheterrible wrote:Type 30 engines aren't ready yet.

So what? AL-41F engines are adequate for now. Why not place the aircraft now in production so the factories and Air force have more experience mass producing it and maintaining it, as well as gain better PR, and introduce the new engines in a later version?

That is why the initial 12 are to be used. And why the jet is being tested now for all other components.

They can wait a bit. Hopefully most of the avionics used on it (AESA radar and alike) end up on the older jets to increase their performance (well, the range of N036 see a radar with 1,600 T/r modules is same as Irbis E radar, but better resolution and better ECM features and scanning speed).

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Type 30 engines aren't ready yet.

So what? AL-41F engines are adequate for now. Why not place the aircraft now in production so the factories and Air force have more experience mass producing it and maintaining it, as well as gain better PR, and introduce the new engines in a later version?

They tried similar approach with Su-35 and it backfired.

Instead of speeding up introduction problems they encountered delay it by several years and incurred additional costs on top.

That is why they decided to be more patient now and wait for full product.

It is one thing to produce 5-6 sets of equipment for some prototypes for testing... it is another to actually put them into serial production for a fighter...

No Hurry.

Unlike LM and the F-35 which has been rushed into production as a semi tested/developed product due to the the US MIC and others need for profits, the T-50 is being fully tested before expensive to upgrade production starts. Also for the F-35 yielding yet more profits.

JohninMK wrote:Unlike LM and the F-35 which has been rushed into production as a semi tested/developed product due to the the US MIC and others need for profits, the T-50 is being fully tested before expensive to upgrade production starts. Also for the F-35 yielding yet more profits.

That's why they are always grounded.

That's why they are always grounded.

Any source for your claim?

T-47 wrote:

That's why they are always grounded.

Any source for your claim?

Well, every month there are articles of F-35 grounded. The last one concerned its helmet issues some weeks ago if I'm not wrong.

miketheterrible wrote:That is why the initial 12 are to be used. And why the jet is being tested now for all other components.

They can wait a bit. Hopefully most of the avionics used on it (AESA radar and alike) end up on the older jets to increase their performance (well, the range of N036 see a radar with 1,600 T/r modules is same as Irbis E radar, but better resolution and better ECM features and scanning speed).

Isnt it confirmed that the Byelka AESA radar has already 2000< modules?

Isos wrote:

T-47 wrote:

That's why they are always grounded.

Any source for your claim?

Well, every month there are articles of F-35 grounded. The last one concerned its helmet issues some weeks ago if I'm not wrong.

Without wanting to go too far O/T I think you just used too sweeping a statement, to say 'always' was wrong. Problems seem to only affect parts of the fleet for some of the time. AFAIK none are grounded ATM, they are working round the issues, air supply is one.

Given that upgrading the already built population of aircraft is going to be very expensive, the Russian approach, as evidenced by the T-50 and Armata family, does seem much more sensible and certainly more economical. Especially as I can't really see any need to rush things forward. Apart from profit that is.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:That is why the initial 12 are to be used. And why the jet is being tested now for all other components.

They can wait a bit. Hopefully most of the avionics used on it (AESA radar and alike) end up on the older jets to increase their performance (well, the range of N036 see a radar with 1,600 T/r modules is same as Irbis E radar, but better resolution and better ECM features and scanning speed).

Isnt it confirmed that the Byelka AESA radar has already 2000< modules?

maybe future iterations but current testing units are rumored around 1600.

JohninMK wrote:

Isos wrote:

T-47 wrote:

That's why they are always grounded.

Any source for your claim?

Well, every month there are articles of F-35 grounded. The last one concerned its helmet issues some weeks ago if I'm not wrong.

Without wanting to go too far O/T I think you just used too sweeping a statement, to say 'always' was wrong. Problems seem to only affect parts of the fleet for some of the time. AFAIK none are grounded ATM, they are working round the issues, air supply is one.

Given that upgrading the already built population of aircraft is going to be very expensive, the Russian approach, as evidenced by the T-50 and Armata family, does seem much more sensible and certainly more economical. Especially as I can't really see any need to rush things forward. Apart from profit that is.

I don't mean really always. It's just a way to say it happens often. Look at the image that the plane has now, something too expensive and it has lot of issues.

I agree. They will need to upgrade them to be 100% operational one day and they will pay in total like 2 times their initial price. But who cares, they achieve to make other countries pay for it ... and they will give them pre production fighters then they will sell them the upgrade.

What's funny is that those countries who can't have a big fleet of f-16 thinks that they will buy tens and tens of F-35.

Russia wasted a lot of time and money in Pak-fa a plane that was not even needed,
Since S-400s and S-500s in combination with Su-35 and Su-30 and mig-31 will have done well defending Russia airspace. this is not mentioning Russia counter electronics testing new capabilities to shut down planes without a missile.

a far more important valuable investment will have been in a SuperSonic or Hypersonic
stealth Bomber. Russia needs better offensive deterrence capabilities across long distances..
and no garry a cruise missile is not a replacement for a bomber deterrence that you don't
know which bombs carry inside if it will fire a nuke or not. Very fast supersonic Stealth Bombers that can carry nukes and can reach US coast in the atlantic and return is the ultimate weapon
for Russia ,because will allow Russia to have the option for a preventive first cruise missile strike on US leadership in case Russia discover though insiders that nuclear war can't be avoided and that they need to strike first.  Pak-fa in the other hands will not give any deterrence to Russia.
while a stealth super sonic bombers can make nervous the leaders of any nation . knowing that could be used to decapitate a nation leaders. to provoke a civil war.

if im put in charge of Russian budget , i will do a million times better than Putin.
And will be flying stealth supersonic bombers already and Russia no longer humilliated
and disrespected by the west as Putin allows. and mark my words. the so called Asian belt
have no chance at all to take off. All those totally superficial economic blocks will do no shit.
Russia needs to become a credible leader in the world and develop an intelligent deterrence.
Once that Americans will not know when Russia will strike first or not. Putin revenge retaliation ,waiting Americans to start first the war is a mistake.

Vann7 wrote:Russia wasted a lot of time and money in Pak-fa a plane that was not even needed,
Since S-400s and S-500s in combination with Su-35 and Su-30 and mig-31 will have done well defending Russia airspace. this is not mentioning Russia counter electronics testing new capabilities to shut down planes without a missile.

The attack stuff force the adversaries to invest to counter stealth infrastructure.

And that is costly.

Vann

The PAK FA isn't necessarily a specific fighter but can be a whole range of fighters to strikers to even bombers. The point of the PAK FA is to make it the next T-10 (Su-27) that will eventually replace all types (Su-30, Su-34, Su-35, Su-27, etc). The investment will be lots but it is essential so that the next couple of generation jets already have a foundation to work off of which is the PAK FA. This in turn will save time and money.

While the T-10 design has lots and lots of opportunities to it to improve upon it and expand its capabilities, it will be a design that will eventually need to be replaced. Stealth design alone is what holds back T-10 while PAK FA will be what is the future. Sure, they can reduce the RCS of the T-10 design (and they have with Su-35) but by only so much till they have to do shaping.

miketheterrible wrote:Vann

The PAK FA isn't necessarily a specific fighter but can be a whole range of fighters to strikers to even bombers.  The point of the PAK FA is to make it the next T-10 (Su-27) that will eventually replace all types (Su-30, Su-34, Su-35, Su-27, etc).  The investment will be lots but it is essential so that the next couple of generation jets already have a foundation to work off of which is the PAK FA.  This in turn will save time and money.

While the T-10 design has lots and lots of opportunities to it to improve upon it and expand its capabilities, it will be a design that will eventually need to be replaced.  Stealth design alone is what holds back T-10 while PAK FA will be what is the future.  Sure, they can reduce the RCS of the T-10 design (and they have with Su-35) but by only so much till they have to do shaping.

Indeed if they are working with Economic cuts and major economic pressure..
then they should put in hold Pak-fa for 4-7 years.. for now , is not really needed
at all ,other than bragging rights. far better if they
start working in a State of the art bomber.  that can carry heavy nukes and travel long distances. but that also could be armed with almost any weapon.. including air to air missiles..
a couple of them in case needs to escape and hostile plane.   Imagine that if Russia had
a Super stealth ,supersonic bomber that could fly as fast as any combat plane ,and could be armed with up to 2 air to air missiles,to shot down hostile combat planes in case of a major emergency and that could take off from moscow and then travel close to US east coast in at atlantic ,fly over international waters near US airspace ,and at any moment they ordered ,
fire a 5-10 megaton nuclear missile and to have a big chance to fly safely back.

Something like that will be the ultimate deterrence ,a first nuclear strike bomber. and
if they can produce a couple of dozens of them at the start even better.  But others will say..
oh nooo its "too expensive"  .. "Russia have no money for that" bla bla bla bla... Russia
have a LOT of money , the problem is that it waste a lot of it  ,in totally meaningless and irrelevant things.

It does not make sense to spend more money than you need to for defence... ignoring other things that you can spend money on just means that in 20 years time they will need attention and money.

For 20 odd years the Russians only spent a little on their military and the effects were felt in Georgia in 8 8 08.

They realised there was a problem and have spent money solving the problem... they are rearming and re-equipping but most importantly redesigning their military forces.

Once they are in shape there wont be a need to keep spending excessive amounts on them... other areas that promote economic growth or indeed improve the quality of life for Russian citizens can be looked at and given attention.

This little arms race you have with the west is your problem... why would Russian citizens be worried their military can only destroy the west 5 times when the west can destroy them 6.5 times... why spend billions to get parity or superiority in something you only find out when everything becomes irrelevant?

Investing in technology to survive on Mars is worth every penny because such technology would allow the recycling of resources to enable survival on Earth to be much easier and more efficient with less waste and ruin perhaps.

The T-50 to be the Su-57?

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2760067.html

Indo-Russian Gen-5 fighter gets green light; experts find “no conflict with indigenous AMCA fighter”

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/07/indo-russian-gen-5-fighter-gets-green.html

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 31st July 17

The decks are clear for the ministry of defence (MoD) to sanction the long-delayed Indo-Russian project to jointly develop a cutting-edge “Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA).

Business Standard learns that an Experts Group, headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, has submitted a report on July 7, finding that the FGFA project would be beneficial to India.

After MoD bureaucrats objected to the FGFA project on the grounds that it might duplicate, or hinder, the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), former defence minister Manohar Parrikar set up the five-person Experts Committee to consider this question.

After deliberating for six months, the Expert Committee has ruled there are no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. In fact, the technological expertise that Indian engineers and designers would gain from working with Russian experts would feed positively into the AMCA project.

Meanwhile, the Defence R&D Organisation, through its subordinate Aeronautical Development Agency, can continue designing the entirely indigenous AMCA – based on its experience in developing the Tejas light fighter.

New Delhi and Moscow signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) a decade ago, in October 2007 for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau in developing and manufacturing the FGFA. Between 2010-23, HAL and Sukhoi spent $295 million each on a “Preliminary Design” phase.

Now, the two sides are required to sign an “R&D Contract”, which the MoD told parliament on July 5, 2013, would “define the total scope; the work share and responsibilities of each side; and the financial implications of the programme.”

Reliable sources tell Business Standard that India and Russia have negotiated a draft R&D Contract, which commits both sides to spending $6.1 billion on the project –$3.05 billion each.

While India has dragged its heels for a decade since signing the IGA, Sukhoi Design Bureau has already designed the basic flying platform, named Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA).

At least six PAK-FA prototypes are already participating in flight-testing and flying displays, such as at the recent Paris Air Show. The draft R&D Contract commits Sukhoi to build the eighth, ninth and tenth prototypes for flight-testing in HAL, by Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots.

That means that, if the R&D Contract is signed this year, IAF pilots could be testing FGFA prototypes in Indian skies by 2020.

HAL chief, T Suvarna Raju, declined to comment on the Experts Group report, but told Business Standard that an early conclusion of the R&D Contract would allow HAL to play an important role in developing the PAK-FA flying platform into a combat effective FGFA for the IAF.

“If we join now, we will still get a significant part of the work share, thanks to delays in the PAK-FA project. HAL would co-design the avionics, including navigation systems, radars and weapon aiming devices. This is the heart of the fighter’s combat ability”, says Raju.

Delays in the PAK-FA’s development are attributable partly to hitches in designing a new, powerful engine that would let the fighter “super-cruise”, or travel at supersonic speeds on “dry thrust”, without engaging its fuel-guzzling afterburners. While engine-maker NPO Saturn has struggled to perfect a secretive new engine, dubbed the Izdeliye 30, the PAK-FA has been flying with the relatively underpowered AL-41FI engine – an uprated version of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engine.

However, at the Paris Air Show in July, Russian designers have claimed that the PAK-FA’s new engine would be ready to fly by December.

For the IAF, the FGFA project opens up the assured development of heavy fighters that will succeed the Sukhoi-30MKI, many of which have already completed 15-17 years in operational service. In the medium fighter category, the IAF would have two Rafale squadrons, possibly three if a follow up contract is signed for an extra squadron; and also three upgraded Mirage-2000 squadrons. In the light fighter category, there will be four squadrons of Tejas Mark 1A, and another light fighter for which procurement has been initiated. Amongst the contenders are the Swedish Saab Gripen E, and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70.


The FGFA is equally crucial for HAL’s Nashik plant, which is now building the last 35 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters of the 272 fighters contracted by the IAF. At a build rate of 12 fighters per year, the Sukhoi-30MKI production line will be idle by 2020. It remains unclear how many FGFA units the IAF will eventually buy, but for HAL Nashik, a production order is essential.

It is reported that the serial version of the T-50 fighter received the official name of "Su-57"

Configuration after installation of electronic equipment

The last copy of T-50-9 has a set of on-board equipment, which will be installed on the serial Su-57. On previous prototypes, the kit was installed partially, so some cars carried only fake electronic equipment.

Su-57

Arrangement of elements of avionics of the Su-57 fighter (with) Piotr Butowski / Air & Cosmos

All systems and devices are interconnected and controlled by a central processor. Sukhoi Design Bureau is responsible for the integration of systems, which happens for the first time. In the past, the developers were responsible for integrating the fire control system and the navigation system. On Sukhoi fighters, this work was usually conducted by Ramenskoe Instrument Design Bureau JSC. Electronic systems include the radar complex of the weapons control system Ш121 and the optic-electronic integrated system 101KS. System Ш121 was developed by JSC "NIIP named after V.V. Tikhomirov "from Zhukovsky and includes the radar H036 and the system for setting up electronic interference L402. Radar H036 "Belka" includes five antennas

All systems and devices are interconnected and controlled by a central processor. Sukhoi Design Bureau is responsible for the integration of systems, which happens for the first time. In the past, the developers were responsible for integrating the fire control system and the navigation system. On Sukhoi fighters, this work was usually conducted by Ramenskoe Instrument Design Bureau JSC. Electronic systems include the radar complex of the weapons control system Ш121 and the optic-electronic integrated system 101KS. System Ш121 was developed by JSC "NIIP named after V.V. Tikhomirov "from Zhukovsky and includes the radar H036 and the system for setting up electronic interference L402. The H036 "Belka" radar includes five antennas with AFAR, three in the X-band and two in the L-band, which control the space at 270 degrees (135 degrees to the left and right of the aircraft axis). The use of the L-band in the operation of the radar in the air-to-air mode is the main means of detecting low-profile aircraft from the T-50. According to the director of the NIIP Yuri Belykh, the last radar H036, produced by the pilot production of the institute, is installed on the T-50-9 plane. Future aircraft will be equipped with a radar produced by JSC "State Ryazan Instrument Plant".

The onboard defense complex L402 "Himalayas" developed by the JSC "Kaluga Research Radio Engineering Institute" and the production of the Stavropol PAO "Signal" has its own antennas, but since it operates on the same wavelengths as the radar, it uses H036 antennas.

Optical-electronic complex 101KS "Atoll" developed by JSC "Production Association" Ural Optical and Mechanical Plant "(UOMZ) in Yekaterinburg allows you to control airspace in the optical range around the perimeter of the aircraft, as well as to protect the aircraft from attacking missiles. The "Atoll" consists of the IRST system 101KS-B, located in front of the engine nacelles, four sensors detecting missiles in the ultraviolet range, which have a 360-degree view, as well as two 101S-O sensors, which, according to UOMZ data, In the infrared range. Another sensor - 101KS-P consists of a small device for infrared vision, which helps the pilot during maneuvers at low altitude or when landing. In addition, the container of navigation and target designation of the navigation container 101KS-N is being developed.

Plans for production of a small series

According to the official document "Action Program of the Ministry of Defense of Russia for the period 2013-2020", published in 2013, the achievement of the initial operational readiness and the start of mass production were planned for December 31, 2016. This period was not sustained, although the document did not say who is responsible for this. The head of UAC, Yuri Slusari, said before the opening of MAKS-2017 that three more T-50 prototypes will be assembled in the framework of the contract for R & D, and that in 2019 the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur will begin deliveries of the first batch of fighters.

According to the press release of the company "Sukhoi" in connection with MAKS-2017 air show, "the first stage of the State tests is coming to its end ... The stability and controllability at subsonic and supersonic speeds at high and low altitudes, as well as at supercritical angles of attack were confirmed" . The first stage of the State Test is very advanced in flight tests. But only passing the second stage of the tests, during which flight control and armament control systems are tested. Allows you to officially accept the aircraft for service in Russia.

The plans for the purchase of the Su-57 VKS of Russia were also revised downwards. On March 23, 2015, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov visited a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where he said that the Russian Air Force will be able to purchase a smaller number of T-50s, in comparison with the planned volume in the GPV 2020, and to purchase Su-30 fighters And Su-35, not so expensive. The Russian media cited a source in the Russian Defense Ministry, which said that until 2020 VCS will purchase only one T-50 squadron (12 vehicles), instead of 60 aircraft stipulated in the GPO-2020.

One of the reasons for the reduction in the number of Su-57s purchased is the internal competition between the 4+ fighters, primarily the Su-35, whose potential is comparable to the Su-57, with the exception of low-level indicators. In the development of the statement by Yuri Borisov, we can add that "Su-35 fighters of the 4+ generation, according to military pilots, demonstrated very good characteristics." The Ministry of Defense of Russia has ordered a total of 98 Su-35S and 116 Su-30SM.

PAK FA 2.0

In the press release of Sukhoi Design Bureau mentioned above, it is noted that PAK FA will become "number one in the market of aviation technologies after 2020". At this point, the second version of the second stage aircraft will be ready. Its main difference will be the installation of engines "product 30", since the engines AL-41F ("product 117") are actually modernized engines AL-31, installed on the Su-27 fighter of the previous generation.

In an interesting presentation of the UAC from 2013, production plans were indicated. Until 2025, the release of 150 engines "product 117" and 340 - "product 30" was envisaged. That allows to say that the production of the T-50 fighter of the "first stage" will not exceed initially provided 60 copies (currently reduced to 12 cars). The remaining 30 engines will be sufficient for experimental aircraft and other tests. Another number - 340 units of "product 30" is very interesting. Less 20 engines for testing, we can talk about the planned release of 160 T-50 "second phase" in the period 2020-2025. To date, these plans, no doubt, revised downward.

The first demonstrator of the engine "product 30" was handed over for testing on November 11, 2016. Tests of the engine in the flying laboratory should begin in 2017, at least, so it is stated.

"Product 30" is created on the basis of the concept of "clean sheet" and should produce traction of 16-17 tons, compared with 14.5 tons at present. In this case, the mass will be reduced, the number of parts and the cost of operation will be reduced. The engine will be distinguished by a certain low visibility. The cold part of the engine will consist of a three-stage compressor (compared to the four stages on the "product 117") and a single-stage turbine. The hot part will be equipped with a five-stage compressor (instead of nine stages) and a single-stage turbine.

Characteristics of the Su-57

The swing is 14.1 meters
Length - 20.1 meters
Height - 4,6 meters
Empty weight - 18 tons
Normal weight - 25 tons
Maximum take-off weight is 35 tons
The maximum speed is 2M
Cruising speed at supersonic speed - 1,3 M
The range of flight on supersonic - 1500 km
The maximum flight range is 3500 km

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2760067.html

So the first 60 products will still use the current engine?

T-47 wrote:So the first 60 products will still use the current engine?

No. They will go with new one from the get go.

They plan to buy full package. They tried piecemeal approach with first Su-35 and got burned.