Russian VSHORADS Thread

Isos wrote:Please provide some sources. Just a t-90MS is 2-3 million. How a tor vehicle with radars and missile could be at the same price ?

Here you can find typical MoD prices (2013) of several components of two batteries of Тор-М1-2У.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/444260.html



The brainless foreign and foreign-funded disinfomation media, exactly like for пр. 885 Ясень, cite this figure as it was the cost of a single launcher !!!

IR systems are also very good for passive strikes. If the enemy has bad MAWS then it won't detect the missile on time. Turkish helicopter was easily destroyed by an Igla-S which wasn't even detected.

It is important to remember that just because aircraft have self defence systems it does not mean they always work.

The AIM-9X failing to shoot down an Su-22 in Syria is a case in point... the IIR sensor of the AIM-9X is touted as a hittile... no escape... jammers and flares don't work... DIRCMS are your only hope... but this Su-22 didn't have DIRCMS...

Radar missiles will always be detected by RWR and are affected by stealth.

Using radar to find targets broadcasts your location to enemy SEAD forces... if you are a single vehicle on your own then that becomes a problem.

For Soviet and Russian batteries of course you likely have half a dozen air defence platforms there with one vehicle scanning for targets giving away its position with 3 to 5 other vehicles there able to fight off an attack if needed.

Sosna have longer range, but Gibka-S can fire faster.

The enormous flight speed of the SOSNA and the larger number of ready to fire missiles still give it an advantage... missile flight time to 5-6km is probably 4-5 seconds... and the autotracker could probably lock targets faster than an IR seeker could.

Of course the launch signature of the SOSNA is quite excessive, but that is because of its large solid rocket booster and massive initial acceleration.

Sosna will be more expensive since they need to build it entirely. Strela 10 will just switch missiles.

The missiles for SOSNA are cheap, and the vehicle has no radar, it is all optics and thermal sights so while it is not cheap it is hardly super expensive either.

Sosna also has a targeting system that is expensive.

The EO systems are not excessively expensive, and the missile performance is excellent.

Tor is tens of million a piece just like pantsir.

When it was first deployed it was horrendously expensive, but with modern electronics and components I would think it would be rather more affordable these days than it was in the past.

Part of TORs cost was operational costs because it is a tracked vehicle... wheeled versions would be cheaper to buy and to use.

Ironically if you are buying a missile to look cool any would do, but if you actually intend to use the system then TOR and SOSNA and Pantsir would be the cheapest choices that are effective too.

With that information Mindstorm, I work it out to be about $5.3 million per TELAR vehicle, which sounds pretty reasonable to me...


...there is no western equivalent.

Mindstorm wrote:

Isos wrote:Please provide some sources. Just a t-90MS is 2-3 million. How a tor vehicle with radars and missile could be at the same price ?

Here you can find typical MoD prices (2013) of several components of two batteries of Тор-М1-2У.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/444260.html



The brainless foreign and foreign-funded disinfomation media, exactly like for пр. 885 Ясень, cite this figure as it was the cost of a single launcher !!!

Maybe I'm not reading you right but are you sure its that low?

Yandex.Translate wrote:
Under the terms of the contract, the Russian Armed forces will receive until the end of 2013, the Toolkit of SAM "tor-M1-2U" for anti-aircraft missile battalion of the new organization infantry brigade - 12 combat vehicles 9А331МУ with a price 394,3 million RUB each, three battery machine maintenance 9В887М2У and one regimental - 9В887-1М2У with the price of about 79 million RUB each, six transport-charging machines 9Т244-1 and 9Т245-1 with a value of 26.1 and 12.3 million RUB. accordingly, the same machine group kit 9Ф399-1М2У for 45 million rubles one set of ground equipment 9Ф116 for 3.8 million rubles.

~ 400 million RUB for 1 TELAR vehicle, so around ~13 million USD at the time.

GarryB wrote:With that information Mindstorm, I work it out to be about $5.3 million per TELAR vehicle, which sounds pretty reasonable to me...


...there is no western equivalent.

Yes, taking into account that disinformation operatives usually invent from thin air figures like 50-60 ml dollars for single combat vehicle        i would say that domestic procurement figures for advanced Тор air defenses (that cost almost 50-60% more than Панцирь-С combat vehicles) are actually very cheap.

For the export market obviously you have a 35-50% increase in costs.

Naturally the ammunitions of both systems are really cheap ; those air defenses was purposely conceived to decisively win the economic/time of production war with air/ground/naval delivered munitions and UAVs .


The agenda behind those inflated figures is clear (exactly like the at times inflated figures about supposed losses of the feared and hated export Панцирь-С1 coming from mostly CIA funded media and lately Ukraine disiformation channels): when you say that a single launcher of Панцирь-С cost 36 ml dollars (that is instead the cost of an entire battery included repair vehicles, battery surveillance randar, transloader, servicing vehicles and high amount of missile and 30 mm gun reload) you can justify that a supposedly cheap drone like MQ-9 Reaper drone cost from 27 to 32,5 ml dollars at piece without anything literally -weapons, remote guidance station, logistical equipment etc.…-

In this way you can sell more easily the demented idea of supposedly "cheap" swarm of tactical drones that penetrate a defense of batteries of Панцирь-С/CM or Тор-М1-2У/M2 and  ПЗРК Игла-С/Верба absorbing the enormous losses thanks to their lower cost      

The much more prosaic reality is that even in the last conflict in the Nagorno Karabakh the immensely outnumbered and largely underequipped self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh's defense Forces have achieved with theirs few 450 thousands dollars Оса-АК and 770 thousands dollars Оса-АКM a crushingly positive exchange ratio against Azerbaijani UAVs.

As said more times (leaving a part Панцирь-С1 or Тор-М1Э batteries that taking, into account the adversary, would had been a true overkill) probably simply bringing in the Artsakh's theatre of operation all the Оса-АК/АКM and EW systems present in Azerbaijan would have depleted the entire fleet of UAV of Armenia within the end of the second week of conflict.

Isos wrote:The maintenance vehicle is 1 million $. There is no way a tor launcher is 5 million.

Russian equipement is not soviet and is getting as expensive as western one.

Not quite. The RUB was 30 to the USD back then, nowadays its closer to 75 ratio. Even accounting for inflation Russian products are cheaper for export.
A combat unit was $13 million back then (2013), but now it would be $ 8 million with inflation. Serial production would have cut the price even further down so it might be that its closer to $ 5 million at current day prices.

Isos wrote:If it was 5-8 million dollars they would be selling them like cakes. Every country would buy 30-50 at such price. Guess what they don't.

Maybe you do not take into account what several nations are really inclined….and able…. to spend for defnse purposes

Do you know that Armenia (Armenia ,not self proclaimed Republic of Artsakh) acquired 35 ex-Jordani Оса-АКМs with hundreds of interceptor missiles for 27 ml dollars -average unit price of about 770 thousands dollars ……clear ? THOUSANDS.....and that acquisition has been labelled in Armenia as a scandal because the acquisition could have been completed for significantly less money.

Of those 35 Оса-АКМs only about 12.....twelve….was transfered in the Nagorno-Karabath theatre under the control of untrained Artsakh's operators that, only with those systems (9,27 ml dollars value in toal) have downed 66 UAV of which 3 confirmed TB2 Bayraktar (unit price 7,5 - 9 ml dollar each) and an Elbit Hermes -900 July of this year (unit value of 30-32 ml dollars).

If Azerbaijan would have the same financial resources of the 100.000 people self-proclaimed Artsakh's Republic ,therefore a conflict between peer opponents to ascertain the best investments for defense resources, the Artsakh's forces would have won hands down , a crushing vitrory.
That version of Azerbaijan couldn't have afforded the UAV they lost only in the first 48 hours and would have also depleted all the resources for ground forces artillery, MBT and mortars.

Therefore is of any evident that Armenia not only could not mass procure modern air defense systems to "share" with theirs Artsakh's brothers ,but that those high end air defenses would have been an overkill against a similar opponent : providing Artsakh forces with 80 ml worth of not corruptly acquired Оса-АКМs (at an honest average cost around 600 thousands dollars) ,that say 134 Оса-АКМs launchers instead of theirs 12, now we will talk of the depletion of the whole fleet of Azerbaijani UAVs within the first 5 days of conflict.

~ 400 million RUB for 1 TELAR vehicle, so around ~13 million USD at the time.

The price in RUBs is what matters because that has not changed as much as the ratio to USD.

Russian equipement is not soviet and is getting as expensive as western one.

If that were true then why is the Russian military budget closer to 70 billion than to 700 billion?

For the export market obviously you have a 35-50% increase in costs.

Costs would be the same, it would be profit that increases for the makers so they can pay their loans and their bills because of their tiny margins on domestic sales.

Even accounting for inflation Russian products are cheaper for export.

Russian products for export have a large mark up in price... it is how they pay for production and development with such low margins selling to their own military.

Even with enormous markups the export customers are still getting serious value for money... for example the S-400 is the equivalent of the PAC-2 and PAC-3 and THAAD batteries combined still with better performance in some areas but it is cheaper than PAC-2 on its own.

For export they use dollars not rubles.

Not any more.

The price won't change. Just the production cost will and will make them win more but the price at which they sell is always the same.

The price changes with the order and the customer... the more you order the cheaper you will get them, but this is how the Russian MIC makes its money so there will always be a 30% markup over the price the Russian military pays...

If it was 5-8 million dollars they would be selling them like cakes. Every country would buy 30-50 at such price. Guess what they don't.

If price was the only issue they would sell tens of thousands... mostly to HATO countries...

When most countries buy such systems they use them to replace existing forces so the vehicles they are replacing probably cost 700K or less so even though it is a bargain it is still not cost effective to buy enormous numbers...

Buks needed russian help to be used. Just like Venezuelan S-300 needed russian assistance to work. I'm pretty sure their S-300PS can't work without russian help.

Why do you think the Russians would refuse to help?

Their AD overestimated and it's far better to put money on migs or sukhois than on AD.

What makes you think MiGs and Sukhois would have done better... are you aware of the air defence capacity of Azeribaijan?

With the 27 million dollars they could have bought 18 mig-29, spare engines and 300 other items like missiles from Hungary for only 10 million $. With a clean up in Russia they would have had total control of the air and would have destroyed the Azeri air force, air defence and frontline big equipment the first days.

And Turkey would have done nothing despite having F-16s in Azerbaijan?

GarryB wrote:The enormous flight speed of the SOSNA and the larger number of ready to fire missiles still give it an advantage... missile flight time to 5-6km is probably 4-5 seconds... and the autotracker could probably lock targets faster than an IR seeker could.

Sosna can not be faster, than Gibka-S. With Sosna you have lock the target, launch the missile, guide missile to the target, lock another target, ... Gibka-S have lock the target, launch the missile, lock another target,... Autotracker and IR seeker in Igla-S or Verba need similar time to lock the target.

Isos wrote:Osa were nothing more than targets in NK. They may have had only 12 but Azeri didn't more than 12 TB2 too.

So you think Azeris start the war with only 12 TB2? Osa was not just a target in Artsakh, but made a great job in air defense. They shot down a lot of drones , some helicopters and 1 Su-25. There was enormous number of drones in the air plus combat planes like Su-25, which support drones with jamming pods and made strikes on ground targets, plus heavy jamming from ground based jammers like Groza complex. In just few days Azerbaijan dry out ther stock of drones and than they have to bring new drones from turkey and Israel everyday.

Artsakh air defense with Osa, Strela-10 and MANPADs actually won the war as they succede in defending their troop for more than 40 days until Russian army take control of Artsakh and stop the war. Artsakh will never be part of Azerbaijan. It will be independent or part of Russia. Azerbaijan will slowly return all teritories back to Artsakh, because this is now russian land and Russia will also made ground conection with Russian border.

TB2 won PR, but Osa won the war.

Buks needed russian help to be used. Just like Venezuelan S-300 needed russian assistance to work. I'm pretty sure their S-300PS can't work without russian help.

Their AD overestimated and it's far better to put money on migs or sukhois than on AD.

Armenians can operate S-300PS by themselves and they have Russian assistance as they are allies. They didn't use it, because Pashinyan order not to react on attacks. Pashinyan refuse military help from Russia, India, China and Greece. China was more than interested, to send numbers of drones to test them against Turkey and Azerbaijan, India would send large numbers of volunteers, Greece would send volunteers to got military experiences and Russia will bring big assistance in air defense, logistics,...

If there was not a treason of Pashinyan in the game, Azerbaijan would never start the war. CIA and Soros know quite well, why they bring Pashinyan to power.

Isos wrote:Your own source contradict yourself.

Osa were nothing more than targets in NK. They may have had only 12 but Azeri didn't more than 12 TB2 too.

I disagree…..


Those 12 export Оса-АКМs (two batteries) have caused losses for more than an order of magnitude greater material damages on Azerbaijani UAVs than theirs cost - 9,25 ml dollars -, i will highlight only few of the most costly ones confirmed downed by Оса-АКМs (and not by Iranian air defenses on the South or Federation's EW placed in the base in the Armenian territory)


July 14, "Helbit Hermes-900" drone -average unit cost: 32 ml dollars (without ground guidance installation)

https://news.am/rus/news/591302.html




24 October, Israel Aerospace Industries "Harop" long range kamikaze drone - average unit price: 10 ml dollars (without ground guidance installations and satellite channel uplink relay station)





October 19 or 20 October, 23 October and November 8, 3 Baykar Technologies "TB2 Bayraktar" average unit price:8 ml dollars (without ground control stations, data terminals and weapons)

https://t.me/KarabakhRecords/9697

https://geektech.me/%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-%D1%81%D0%BE-%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8B%D0%BC-%D0%B2-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B0/

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1325389177177960448/photo/1

There are other dozen of evidence of helicopters (just lately the video of a downed Azerbaijani Ми-17 surfaced) various licensed version Orbiter UAVs, Helbit "Skystrikers" and An-2 converted in UAVs with 250 kg bombs downed by those two batteries of Оса-АКМs.

Unfortunately the wide majority -over 90%- of those downed UAVs/helicopters has been achieved in the northern sector where those 12 Оса-АКМs was stationed at defense of the capital Step'anakert and used by, at least, moderately trained operators placing them in ambush in the promontory around the urban area using some sytems as bait and suddenly changing position after the downing.


In all the other area situations like this one was instead the rule…




Now Isos with the same exact price of only the first 5 downed UAVs previously highlighted - 66 ml dollars - at the corrupt high price Armenia acquired its Оса-АКМs Artsakh could have procured about 86 combat launchers of this SAM system with several hundreds of interceptor missiles.

At an honest price for those Оса-АКМs -АО "ИЭМЗ Купол" could have sold, with the Federation Mod's permission, from old reserve stocks of more than 1200 of those largely outdated systems, domestic version instead of export ones of those Оса-АКМs at no more than руб. 48000000 for combat unit (about 650 thousands dollars) - Artsakh's forces could have deployed in all the conflict area more than Оса-АКМs 100 launchers with significantly better performances.

I repeat it could had been possible a similar acquisition ONLY WITH THE COST of the most costly 5 - FIVE - UAVs downed by those 12 Оса-АКМs !

Obviously not only the losses among the enemy UAVs would have depleted all the Azerbaijani unmanned fleet in a matter of days but would have reduced to a tiny fraction the high number of damaged equipment and wounded and the minor percentage of irreparable equipment ddestroyed and troops killed by those UAVs.

I repeat all that for the same cost of FIVE downed UAVs ,among the 66 the two batteries of Оса-АКМs completed in the course of the conflict.


When a serious military analyst execute a cold analysis of the data and model a similar NK conflict with the same variables taken in consideration and, not the same, but an investment in outdated air defenses (modern ones appear as a total overkill) as small as 20-25% of what invested by the other side in UAV systems and the remaining 75% of the same enemy UAV costs in MBTs, artillery, mortars, field radars, masking and decoy systems etc... the result is a true crushing victory for the defending side with a ground counter-offensive probably causing even greater territory gain in comparison with '92 conflict.

medo wrote:Pashinyan refuse military help from Russia, India, China and Greece. China was more than interested, to send numbers of drones to test them against Turkey and Azerbaijan, India would send large numbers of volunteers, Greece would send volunteers to got military experiences and Russia will bring big assistance in air defense, logistics,...

Only Russia and Greece offered help and Pashniyan refused. China did not get involved because its ally Pakistan was fighting on behalf of Azeris. And India what help would they provide when they themselves are getting their ass kicked by the Chinese.

Isos wrote:Sorry but no one cares about your hypotetical scenario of Armenia buying 100 Osa.

They bought 12 of them and destroyed 5 major UAV. That sucks. They lost most of their AD that was in NK.

To the contrary, a lot care and not here……..

Self proclaimed Artsakh forces do not buy any Оса-АКМs, Armenia bought them and not 12 but 35 launchers for 27 ml dollars and that was actually a substantially inflated high price for export version of those outdated and not modernized air defense systems; the other 23 launchers remained in Armenian territory.

Taking into account that the airforce of both sides was effectively and completely paralised by the presence on the other side of old version of C-300 batteries, the acquisition of four Су-30СМ - while at very advantageous Federation instead of export prices - was effectively disfunctional.

It would have been possible to acquire three batteries of Панцирь-С1 and an heavy stock of dedicated radar/IR and optical decoys and area masking systems.

Two entire batteries of Панцирь-С1 with radar/IR-optical decoys and masking systems in the conflict theatre would have effectively paralized UAV operations within 48-72 hours from beginning of hostilities and provided also the upper hand in long range MLRS exchanges and duels.

jhelb wrote:

medo wrote:Pashinyan refuse military help from Russia, India, China and Greece. China was more than interested, to send numbers of drones to test them against Turkey and Azerbaijan, India would send large numbers of volunteers, Greece would send volunteers to got military experiences and Russia will bring big assistance in air defense, logistics,...

Only Russia and Greece offered help and Pashniyan refused. China did not get involved because its ally Pakistan was fighting on behalf of Azeris. And India what help would they provide when they themselves are getting their ass kicked by the Chinese.

China doesn't want to have Turkey in central Asia to endanger China itself in Xinjiang. They would help Armenia to stop Turkey. India will send a lot of volunteers to fight against Pakis in Artsakh. Both could send a lot of weapons.

Sosna can not be faster, than Gibka-S. With Sosna you have lock the target, launch the missile, guide missile to the target, lock another target, ... Gibka-S have lock the target, launch the missile, lock another target,... Autotracker and IR seeker in Igla-S or Verba need similar time to lock the target.

In theory you are right.... with both systems receiving target data from other platforms the Gibka should be able to just point, lock and shoot and then point and lock and shoot at targets without having to wait until impact before launching its next missile. With Sosna the missile is guided to impact and then a next target can be locked and fired upon.

In practise however some of the targets will have very weak IR signatures and the seekers of these missiles will struggle to get proper locks before launch.

The SOSNA will have much better optics and could probably guide to targets an IR sensor would struggle to lock on to.

The enormous flight speed of the SOSNA means having to wait till missile impact is not as big a problem as if it were say Kornet moving at a much lower speed.

SOSNA can be launched against any target whether distinct IR or not... it could be launched in optical mode against an all electric drone with no heat spot because of an internal combustion motor...

Doubling the radius also massively increases the volume of airspace the SOSNA can cover with cheaper missiles.

Sorry but no one cares about your hypotetical scenario of Armenia buying 100 Osa.

They bought 12 of them and destroyed 5 major UAV. That sucks. They lost most of their AD that was in NK.

The lose of 5 drones is nothing for Azerbaijan.

What he is saying is that they chose poorly when it came to equipping their air defence systems. Suggesting there was no air defence systems they could have bought that would be effective and instead they should have bought fighter planes instead is amusing because fighter planes are more vulnerable to air defence systems than air defence systems are vulnerable to drones and yet cost a hell of a lot more because you can't just buy them and keep them in storage till you need them... you need to train pilots to fly and ground crews to support and maintain which makes aircraft rather more expensive than you claim.

Quite impossible to do worse. Azeri air force is made of obsolate mig-29 and their AD is very small. With 12 upgraded mig-29 (r-77, r-73) and jammers from Belorussia they could have destroyed them pretty easily.

So they get planes for free and their pilots get things right first try without training or expending any ordinance... interesting.

If the su-30 were operated by well trained pilots and had kh-31 or kh-25P Azeri S-300 would be easy targets. If they had r-77 they would have destroyed all the azeri mig and drones pretty easily too.

Your confidence is impressive... but is it justified? How many well trained pilots does Armenia have?

Again Armenian buk needed russian operators to come and help to make them work just like Venezuelan S-300. Azeri S-300 should be in the same situation. Those are heavy and complicated stuff to operate. I doubt they even train on them.

How about the Azerbaijani BUK?

Isos wrote:Turkey can't endanger China. Too far too powerfull and chinese won't hesitate to strike first.

China is too powerful that's true. But they don't have the capability yet to strike Turkey without Russian support. Even an underdeveloped country like India has stopped the PLA on its tracks. China is now seeking help from allies like Russia and Pakistan to help them to overpower India.

Point is without Russian and Pakistani support China is not all that invincible as some individuals choose to believe.

Isos wrote:If the su-30 were operated by well trained pilots and had kh-31 or kh-25P Azeri S-300 would be easy targets. If they had r-77 they would have destroyed all the azeri mig and drones pretty easily too.

I think you would not be too happy seeing the average results of SEAD exercises of ВВС against batteries of relatively outdated C-300 ,obviously professionally operated, using way, way more numerous and sophisticated resources and tactics (against latest models of C-300, for not say C-400, with moderate IAD integration there is not even a training value : it become a true massacre for the poor ВВС units).

In this conflict both Armenia and Azerbaijan was aware, knowing approximatively of what was capable the C-300 of the other side, that try to operate theirs Air Forces units over the conflict sectors would have been almost a suicide.

Both high command have effectively prohibited any manned aircraft action from day one until day 45, because none of them would be blamed for catastrophic losses at the end of the hostilities.

If you want an hint on how the things are at the moment : take into account that IAF -Israeli Air Force- in spite of israeli extrensive HUMINT network rooted in Syrian territory , the very close distance from potential targets and the lack of any credible ground offensive menace against theirs air bases and weapon production/stocking installations by part of Syrian Army , has been ,since three years from now ,effectively expelled from Syrian air space and forced to employ exclusively ridiculously expensive and inefficient stand-off ammunitions from Lebanon air space and, more rarely, from US-controlled northern Syria areas.

This happened just after Federation specialists slightly modernized several batteries of theirs soviet era SAM systems and few batteries of export version of more updated and mobile ones became operative.

We are all anxiously waiting for the unbeatable F-35I “Adir" , supposedly visible only at few km for the poor air defense systems and therefore absolutely invulnerable if operated at high altitude ,flying freely in Syrian air space bombing at leisure with theirs cheap intenal JDAMs any target.

Even more i do not understand why USAF ,instead to lose dozen billions dollars and literally years of productions introducing sanctions against a key OTAN ally like Turkey - declaring moreover that its invisible and unbeatable F-35 cannot be operated in area where C-400 is operative - do not instead organize two/three secret demonstrations of its unbeatable F-35 against those few export C-400 proving to Turkey how much useless are those systems.
Turkey at this point will surely recede from further C-400 acquisition options, disactivate the useless russian air defense junk and will quickly return in the F-35 happy family of sincere guys , moreover with incalculable image and financiary planetary losses for the Federation's makers in the weapon export market.


There is only advantages and literally zero risks in doing that for the honest and sincere guys at Pentagon instead of the self-damaging and unlawful escape american military command have pursued….i truly do not understand why……..

Even more none can understand how much stipid is Federation military authorities selling instead C-400, without any restriction , to an OTAN nation that would have operated the unbeatable and invisible F-35 ,in this way destroying utterly the market for this air defense system.

It is truly unexplicable…….