P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

bolshevik345 wrote:Does the PVO have any strategies to deal with mass MALD deployment and SDB launches? I am not an electrical or software engineer, but AFAIK the smaller the guidance system, the more easily its jammed, and the SDB is small. Or am I wrong?

First strategy I can think of is controlling the airspace of the whole Eurasia with their EW radars. This allows to see for instance the F-35s leaving the runway so to prepare the interceptors to stop them or discern the point when a MALD separates from the carrier. This allows to reduce the numbers of targets to deal with. Also a main factor is that US could not build up forces around Russia in massive amounts before they give an ultimatum. SDBs and MALD are not so disruptive technologies or hard targets to shoot down, they can be hard only if you allow the opponent to use them in massive amounts, at least from what I know.

SDBs are indeed small, frail and slow weapons. There are a number of ways of fighting them in Russian military, from EW to AAA. And of course, given the use of a small warhead the effects of degrading the guidance can be quite big for the final lethality of the weapon. SDBII includes multimode seeker to address this issue, but the price is notably more expensive than the more simple original model. And the release ranges of these weapons are relatively small, so the carrier should launch them high altitude at max 100 km from the target, which does not seem a great idea if you consider the amount of high speed, long range means available to intercept them (i.e. MiG-31BM + R37M or S-400) way before they can position themselves for the attack. This is not the best weapon to confront Russia if their AD is working IMHO.

They need to make something like Tor-M2 or similar system to deal with MALD and GBU/SDB type weapons.

May be a Tor missile with cheap terminal seeker or even command guidance system but that can guide like 30 targets at a time towards a target.

One option is to use dual command guidance with seeker of Manpads which would be cheaper so that hit probability is high.


This is the tactics used by Israel against Syrian AD in recent strike where even Pantisir was present but they simply overwhelm the targets and since PGM used IIR seeker it was not possible to jam it.

The best tactic is to shoot down the launch platforms before they launch their attack.

Also destroy airfields launch aircraft operate from and of course any tanker aircraft or AWACS platforms coordinating the attack.

As it is now they have TOR and Pantsir systems, but they also have long range SAMs like S-400 and are introducing S-350 to replace old S-300 systems with twelve missiles per vehicle replacing four per vehicle with a longer ranged missile... (old S-300 had 90km range and S-350 has 60km and 150km range missiles).

There are also active optical jamming systems to defeat laser guided weapons and IIR guided weapons, and of course it seems they can disrupt GPS at will too...

Add to that the fact that now they can have land based hypersonic land attack missiles that could be used against targets over the entire European continent I think it is really NATO that needs to be worried rather than Russia.

In a few years time they could have a Boomerang based vehicle with a 57mm gun with guided shells that might have the entire rear troop compartment filled with ammo... so we would be talking about 500 rounds out to 10-12km range firing at over 200 rpm if needed...

Not to mention upgraded laser systems, and jamming systems and false targets... but mostly the nuclear retaliation that is triggered by a mass attack from NATO.

S-500 can hit ground targets ?

Probably could... many heavy Russian SAMs can, but would be a bit of a waste as they already have surface to surface missiles like Iskander etc... and will shortly have land attack Zircon missiles and upgraded Onyx missiles too.

bolshevik345 wrote:Does the PVO have any strategies to deal with mass MALD deployment and SDB launches? I am not an electrical or software engineer, but AFAIK the smaller the guidance system, the more easily its jammed, and the SDB is small. Or am I wrong?

They surely have one of such, just look at the system they are developing or even introducing in service right now.

As an example they not just beefed up the S-300 to the S-400 but will introduce another brand new system like the S-350E (good news there: State trials for it are over and serial production is just started).


Such system is somewhat underlooked compared to S-400/S-500 but IMHO is fundamental as it doesn't just cover the gap between Pantsir and S-400 allowing to cover large areas against massive waves of long range systems like the one launched by US, France and UK against Damascus but also to engage planes launching SDB and other glide bombs i.e. allowing to "shoot at the Archer, not at the Arrows".

Newest version of Pantsir, also them close to completion sport new missiles and radars both specifically developed to engage prospective swarm mode attacks made using small glide weapons and drones.

Under it there will be introduced Morfey that will further enhance such capability through a larger dotation of VSHORAD missiles coupled with a radar able to cover instantaneously a 360° FoW.

And for the smallest threats like mini or micro drones 57mm shells, guided or not from Derivatsyia.

Plus S-300V4, Buk-M3, Tor-M2 and Sosna.

Hole wrote:Plus S-300V4, Buk-M3, Tor-M2 and Sosna.

Yes, they are however the correspondent system used by Army to protect their mobile column.
Trend is however the same: in both cases they are moving toward systems carrying more missiles and radars able to deal with different targets in the same moment.
Most of above mentioned weapons are almost all ready while most the weapons and drones they are designed to deal with are instead at the very initial point of their own development if not just mere proposals from industry.

GarryB wrote:The best tactic is to shoot down the launch platforms before they launch their attack.

Also destroy airfields launch aircraft operate from and of course any tanker aircraft or AWACS platforms coordinating the attack.

As it is now they have TOR and Pantsir systems, but they also have long range SAMs like S-400 and are introducing S-350 to replace old S-300 systems with twelve missiles per vehicle replacing four per vehicle with a longer ranged missile... (old S-300 had 90km range and S-350 has 60km and 150km range missiles).

There are also active optical jamming systems to defeat laser guided weapons and IIR guided weapons, and of course it seems they can disrupt GPS at will too...

Add to that the fact that now they can have land based hypersonic land attack missiles that could be used against targets over the entire European continent I think it is really NATO that needs to be worried rather than Russia.

In a few years time they could have a Boomerang based vehicle with a 57mm gun with guided shells that might have the entire rear troop compartment filled with ammo... so we would be talking about 500 rounds out to 10-12km range firing at over 200 rpm if needed...

Not to mention upgraded laser systems, and jamming systems and false targets... but mostly the nuclear retaliation that is triggered by a mass attack from NATO.

S-500 can hit ground targets ?

Probably could... many heavy Russian SAMs can, but would be a bit of a waste as they already have surface to surface missiles like Iskander etc... and will shortly have land attack Zircon missiles and upgraded Onyx missiles too.

Honestly I believe the future of IADs is the integration of IRBM's, such as Zircon as a deterrence ultimatum. Integrating Zircon, which means if S-400's detects (with the help of Early Warning radars) mass attack coming it's direction, Zircons could immediately respond and launch in the direction of the airfields/missile farms, and any attempt to target Zircon launches would be nullified by the IAD. This is the ultimate consequential response of combining SAM/ABM with IRBM (Mk. 41).

There are also a range of EM weapons that could defeat AWACS and comms systems including satellite based and between UCAVs and aircraft platforms.

magnumcromagnon wrote:Honestly I believe the future of IADs is the integration of IRBM's, such as Zircon as a deterrence ultimatum. Integrating Zircon, which means if S-400's detects (with the help of Early Warning radars) mass attack coming it's direction, Zircons could immediately respond and launch in the direction of the airfields/missile farms, and any attempt to target Zircon launches would be nullified by the IAD. This is the ultimate consequential response of combining SAM/ABM with IRBM (Mk. 41).

As my friend used to say.

The moment the last cruise missile hits Kaliningrad is when the first ICBM is going to hit Washington.

What was interesting in Russian air defense in 2019

Premieres of 2019

1. ZRPK "Pantsir-SM"



 Deep modernization of the best-seller of the Tula Instrument Design Bureau named after Academician A.G. Shipunova, ZRPK "Pantsir-SM" was shown on a separate site promising VT Ministry of Defense of Russia at the Army-2019. As the information plate in front of him reported, the new complex is capable of hitting targets at ranges of up to 40 km, at altitudes of up to 15 km, flying at a speed of up to 2 km / s and has a maximum channel of 4.



As you can see, the new ZRPK received not only a new chassis of the Tornado family, but also a new combat module.



Both the combat radar of guiding missiles, and the radar for detecting targets, and the missiles themselves became oversized.

The new missile was presented at the exposition of the NPO High-Precision Complexes. The ideology of missiles remained the same, as conceived for the very first version of the Shell A.G. Shipunov is a bicaliber, only the starting stage has become much more powerful and larger, which made it possible to hit targets at ranges of up to 40 km, according to the product plate.



You can compare the dimensions of the new and serial missiles.


2. ZRPK "Pantsir-S1M"

Pantsir-S1M is an export project to modernize the Pantsir-S1 air defense missile defense system, although it looks very much like Pantsir-SM. Again, also a new Tornado-type chassis, a new combat radar and, possibly, new SAM, but at the same time the old "pyramidal" SOC.



In this frame, it is clear that the combat radar came from the ship’s Pantsir-M air defense missile system. "Pantsir-S1M" was shown as a mock-up, in iron it has not yet been noticed.




3. Air defense missile systems S-350 "Vityaz-PVO"

The Army Army-2019 finally showed a serial launcher from the S-350 Vityaz-PVO air defense system (sometimes just the Vityaz), developed at the Almaz NPO (Almaz-Antey East-Kazakhstan Concern).


On the information plate of the PU were presented TTX S-350:

   - maximum range of defeat - 60 km;
   - the maximum height of the lesion is 30 km;
   - the number of target channels - 12;
   - coagulation time - 5 minutes



 On the launcher are placed in packages of 12 missiles 9M96D in TPK. And if you believe the magazine "Defense", then the destruction range of the 9M96D missile launcher in the Poliment-Redut naval air defense system is 150 km!


4. Additional launcher for air defense systems "Viking"

   At Army Army 2019, the Almaz-Antey Concern presented the 9A383E launcher attached to the 9K317ME Viking air defense system (export version of the 9K317M Buk-M3 air defense system) to expand the complex's range and range of aerodynamic and ballistic targets.

 To expand the opportunities for promoting air defense systems, this PU was created, which is a new version of the PU 9A83ME from the Antey-2500 (S-300V4) air defense system on a different tracked self-propelled gun. Designed and manufactured at MZiK.



   This is not a very high-quality picture where you can see both launchers in one frame - on the right is 9A83ME from Antey-2500 and on the left is 9A383E from Viking



5. Wheeled SAM "Tor-M2"

Izhevsk "Dome" presented a prototype of a 9A331M combat vehicle 9K331M "Tor-M2" air defense system on a special 8x8 hull chassis of the Bryansk Automobile Plant.



Although the wheeled version of the Tor-M2K air defense system is already mass-produced on the Belarusian MZKT chassis and exported to Belarus, in this case the enterprises of the East Kazakhstan Concern are developing alternative versions of domestic chassis.




6. A new version of the air defense system "Sosna"

First introduced at the Army 2018, the Sosna air defense missile system in 2019 was on a new chassis based on the BMP-3



In the near future, "Sosna" will go into service with the Russian army and will replace the Strela-10 air defense system

And most likely the base variant will be a chassis based on the BMP-3. As you know, the Kurganmashzavod, where BMP-3 was developed and manufactured, became a part of the NPO High-Precision Complexes (where the Nudelman Design Bureau is located - the developer of Sosny), which will ensure guaranteed deliveries of new systems to the troops.

2019 Air Defense News

1. The state tests of the Gibka-S air defense system created in the Kolomna Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering (NPO High-Precision Complexes) were completed




2. State tests of the new 57-mm AAA "Derivation-PVO" are nearing completion




3. Since 2007, the Concern VKO Almaz-Antey has delivered about 60 S-400 Triumph air defense divisions to the Russian Air Force



4. At the Sea Salon-2019 in St. Petersburg, NPO High-Precision Complexes showed

Combat module ZRPK "Pantsir-ME" from KBP. Soon we will see him at Karakurt.




and the combat module ZRAK "Palash" from KBtochmash them. Nudelman




and 30mm ZRAK "Palash" on the frigate Admiral Kasatonov



as well as 30-mm ZAK AK-630-2 "Duet" from Tulamashzavod




5. VKO Concern demonstrated at Morsalon

Model 9M317ME missile at the stand of the Concern VKO Almaz-Antey




and PU 3M47 "Gibka" with missile launcher "Igla"



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3896507.html

Photos of Russian air defence systems in victory day military parade

https://saidpvo.livejournal.com/965990.html

A truck-based version of the 57mm gun would be nice to guard S-400/-500 units against drone swarms.

Agree, but a boomerang or typhoon based model will be mobile and relatively cheap to operate being wheeled, but also with protection from small arms and splinters as well...

Or the truck of the Pantsir-SM. Nice machine. Should be able to carry 250 - 300 rounds. Or even more.

If you use the troop area of an BTR/BMP variant of the Boomerang or Typhoon you should get 300-350 rounds... AFAIK the turret with bustle can have up to 120-150 rounds so the room in the rear of a troop transport that normally holds 8 men should be able to hold double that if not better.

A truck could have an enlarged autoloader based on the naval gun that could also have large numbers of rounds ready to fire... a sort of shelterised model based on a trailer so the front portion of the truck could park the trailer up and put it on stabilisers and then leave... One truck could position a dozen trailer shelterised mounts with ground based power like a campervan at a camping park... you could set up 20-30 different positions around a decent sized airfields and just deploy vehicles as required...

Hole wrote:A truck-based version of the 57mm gun would be nice to guard S-400/-500 units against drone swarms.

For that job towed version like old S-60 would be just fine. They don't need to fire on the move, just to be placed around them and protect their work. You just need strong enough truch to drive them around.

You need a turret with a stabilisation system and EO systems to find targets and of course the laser systems to set off air burst fuses etc etc.

It will be interesting to see how the reintroduction of the calibre effects countries world wide that have towed S-60 guns in stock... as shown in Syria it is a powerful and potent enemy force suppression system... imagine a ZSU-57-2 with a slightly bigger turret that is totally unmanned with belt feed autoloaders and perhaps 300 rounds of ammo ready to fire with perhaps a rear turret bustle with more ammo stored... I seem to remember the original vehicle had about 310 rounds on board in 4 round clips...

With a closed roof and EO systems for detection and engagement of targets it would be a very interesting vehicle to use with perhaps a missile vehicle like Pine... with no radar it would also be relatively cheap and low emission.

What is the system that creates huge smoke screen to hide AD forces in the area at 2:37 ? That's a wonderfull system against laser guided rounds.

Could be the TDA-2K... which is based on a Kamaz truck, but there are also trailer versions....

North east also some pantsir were spotted.

S-300V4 was said to be in Tartus too.

They also have plenty of surveillance radars like modernized P-18 and Kasta on the coast.

They also have at least one A-50U connected to the network and all the su-30/35 are also connected to it.

At least 1 Grigorovitch is there and has a 250-300km surveillance radar that can share data with ground forces. But it can also move along the coast to watch over Israel and Turkey airspace from closer.

They also control the 3 S-300PMU2.



In total that's something like 100 long range missile S-400/300. 156 pantsir missiles. 40 tor missiles. 24 shtil-1.

320 ready to use missiles. And they are quite well concentrated with plenty of radars.

Air defense Forces of heaven

Missile strikes in Karabakh, a cruise missile attack on an oil refinery in Saudi Arabia, and a RAID by American Tomahawks on the Shayrat airport in Syria-in this issue, "Military acceptance" looks for an answer to the question of what means our army can withstand such threats. For the first time, viewers will see the updated Buk and Pantsir and other army technologies for fighting drones in detail.

And also - the biggest air defense exercises in 2020 with the use of all air defense systems: why almost nothing is known about them, and for whom they were arranged-see the new issue of " air defense. The powers of heaven".

Note from 31:29 onwards it shows the imaging centre I was talking about... this footage is different so there is another episode with different footage of this same facility that is used for physical models of all sorts of western aircraft and missiles and weapons that are raised and rotated in front of various optical and radar sensors with their 360 degree signatures being recorded so that the real thing can be identified from these signatures automatically.
This footage is interesting but the other episode was longer regarding this facility and what they do there, but you can see all sorts of weapons and aircraft including a B-2 against a back wall and various weapons and missiles from the west...

I hope they will translate this episode sooner rather than later.

I just came to share it too. Garry was faster.

Hope they quickly come with english version. How much do they need to make the english video usually ?