Russian Air-to-Air missiles

Berkut wrote:If a MiG-31BM pilot told me that he has personally seen R-77-1 and sent me a pic of AKU-170's on MiG-31BM; what does that tell you?

Personally seen what? _A_ missile, during integration trials? Or an aircraft regularly flying during training with 170 with a stock of ZIP delivered?

An AKU is just an AKU.

Isos wrote:Does someone know how many R-77 have been received or ordered by RuAF ?

We know contract value but not the number of missiles. Roughly 1000 of them spread mostly for this year and next.

Berkut wrote:

Isos wrote:Does someone know how many R-77 have been received or ordered by RuAF ?

We know contract value but not the number of missiles. Roughly 1000 of them spread mostly for this year and next.

And value is?

How difficult is to intercept and air-air missile with another air-air missile. I heard claims such as the IRIS-T and R-77 series are advertised to intercept enemy air-air missiles and surface-air missiles. US is also making the SACM/MSD to take out enemy air-air missile.

Any info on SACM vs R-77 comparison ?

Well you are talking about an Air to Air missile designed to hit an aircraft size target being used against a target that when flying end on is smaller than a dinner plate, and generally flying much faster than most aircraft fly at most of the time.

Part of the issue is concentrating fragments and blast at such a small target to be effective, and of course actually targeting the target in the first place with its very small RCS.

Of course missiles like the upcoming 9M100 Morfei is designed from the outset to be used in the CIWS role for the navy and a short range SHORAD for the Army and short range lock on after launch AAM for the air force so it would be ideal as a small light short range anti missile missile that should be able to be carried in significant numbers due to its small size and design from the outset to be carried internally in a weapon bay or vertical launch tube.

GarryB wrote:Well you are talking about an Air to Air missile ......

Are you talking about SACM or R-77 ?

Your question was:

How difficult is to intercept and air-air missile with another air-air missile.

That is what I was replying to.

What is an ATAM?

Question is if you can aquire a lockon with the profile of the enemy missile hiding its own exhaust with its body, but should be not that hard.

For a radar guided missile it would be no problem getting a lock and even older IR guided missiles would be able to lock head on as the nose of the incoming missile will be friction heated and of course in the boost phase will have a large heat plume from the rocket motor.

Modern IIR seeker missiles would have little problem too for the same reasons as above.

Russian Military Receiving New Improved Combat Air-to-Air Missiles

Russia’s new short-range maneuverable combat air-to-air missiles based on the R-73 short-range missile have been delivered to the military, the general director of the Duks designing company told Sputnik.

“Deliveries have begun,” Yuri Klishin said. Klishin said earlier that the new missile should have an infrared precision navigation warhead and its capabilities would be expanded for its attack angle, payloads, lock-on navigation warhead, as well as increasing its survivability from various types of tracking, increased reliability, anonymity, and its uniqueness. He said that the missile’s effectiveness would also be increased by 25-30 percent.

That would be rvv-md related missile? Have any sources mentioned the seeker? Is it IR/UV or is it IIR?

eridan wrote:That would be rvv-md related missile? Have any sources mentioned the seeker? Is it IR/UV or is it IIR?

RVV-MD has a maximum firing range of about 40km, that is quite similar to IRIS-T, ASRAAM, Python-5 or AIM-9X

Is there actual info on R-77-1 out there, aside from dimensions and general, contextless, range performance bracket?

This video compares latest variants of R77 and Amraam. How accurate is it?

Not a bad video, but things like the fact that Russian aircraft can fly faster than most western aircraft... which means better range for the missiles they fire are ignored.

The comments about Russian radar being inferior are amusing as they tended to use the same Texas Instruments based digital electronics during the 1990s and now would likely use Russian electronics.

The new russian missiles are a large unknown but the comments about the control surfaces seem to downplay the advantages of the rear grid fins of the R77, where in a turning engagement would allow far superior manouver capability.

The R-77 is a medium range missile, for long range engagements they have the R-37M.

In long range engagements the targets will mostly be bombers like the B-52 or JSTARS or AWACS or refuelling aircraft... or even troop transports... targets that would serious damage the enemy if taken out of the fight early.

The graphics seemed to show R-77 fly directly at the target and then lose speed and fall short, while the Amraam was shown to be lofted at long range targets.

It is known the r-27 uses a lofted trajectory to extend range, so I don't see why its replacement would not use the same trajectory models to maximise range.

Also that crap about GPS helping AMRAAM is just that... crap.

If you are tracking the target GPS or GLONASS does not come in to it... you detect the targets position relative to yours and you launch a missile towards the projected position of the target... as your missile flys and gets closer and closer to that intercept position you occasionally update the targets location with your radar or IRST or off platform data source... if the target performs significant manovers or speed changes and will be outside the intercept range when the missile arrives to the intercept point then the targets location at intercept is recalculated and an new intercept point is calculated.... a new manouver command is sent to your missile to change course to the new intercept point... GPS or GLONASS has nothing to do with it.

I think that flight profile of the R-27ER making a long range shot was the same as the AIM-120 shown a high altitude mid stage with high speed descent to the point of interception.
If what he says in video is true that R-77 gets a longer active burner flight it means it has a lot more energy. That means bigger no escape zone. And one more thing. Russian missiles used TI chips in their guidance warheads but i would dispute that they were the "same" as western ones. I would not be surprised if these pieces of electrohnic would have reduced performance characteristics (or some backdoors / intentional bugs for that matter). However finally it is time to introduce the Amraam-ski to active service. I would assume that it will take years for us to get to the real characteristics of the missile at wich point in time Ruskies will have already a "BM" version in service i guess. I have to admitt im lost in these Amraamski versions - question is who isnt?

In 2016 Zhuhai airshow,the Ukraine exhibitoe tell :They are only manufacture of the R-27series missile,
they offer the means ,only R27R1 and R27ER1,R-27T,R-27ET ect ,no R-27AR.

have the R-27AR been  give up?

There are two basic models of the R-27... the R-27 and R-27E.

The R-27 model is smaller and lighter and shorter ranged.

The R-27E had a much more powerful rocket motor and a much longer range.

There are over a dozen variants of these two missiles.

The R models are SARH missiles that need the target to be painted or illuminated with another aircraft's radar for a hit... that is R-27R and R-27ER.

The IR guided models are the R-27T and R-27ET.

The active homing model is R-27EA AFAIK.

I don't know of anyone actually making it.

The passive homing models are the R-27P and R-27EP.

And then there are special models of each of the above for older model aircraft with upgrades like the MiG-21-93 and MiG-21-98, and MiG-23-98 etc etc.

Then there are the special models for navy aircraft designed especially to operate over water...

Batajnica wrote:In 2016 Zhuhai airshow,the Ukraine exhibitoe tell :They are only manufacture of the R-27series missile,
they offer the means ,only R27R1 and R27ER1,R-27T,R-27ET ect ,no R-27AR.

have the R-27AR been  give up?

Actually some Ukrainian firms and Radionix have marketed the dual-mode active-passive seeker for R-27s air-2-air missile as alternative option of Russian R-77s on international market and R-27s base SAM. Have not known the status or orders yet.

http://stailker.livejournal.com/1531574.html?thread=3956662

How is the R-27AE project going?
At the 2016 Zhuhai airshow, told the Ukraine Pavilion project is in Russia.
with 1103M active radar seeker

R-27 missile aerodynamic layout is very suitable for high G, if R-27AE project can be popular, there will be a very high mobility medium range air-to-air missile.R-27 series pneumatic layout will make the pay range and flight speed on a larger price

Problems and potential of R-27AE

Compared with semi-active radar homing, active radar homing medium range air-to-air missile can engage in farther distance. This makes all active radar Air-to-Air Missile Battle distance and range are larger than the semi active radar guided missile.
At the same time, with higher speed, so as to reduce the end of initial homing capture errors.
R27AE caused the flight due to aerodynamic resistance, which uses active radar homing, flight speed and range was less than that of active radar homing missile redesigned

I would think the days of the R-27AE are numbered.

On its own it has huge potential as active radar homing missiles can be launched at distant targets and then the launch aircraft is free to manouver, whereas a SARH missile the launch aircraft needs to be ready to paint the target with a radar beam when needed and keep a lock on that aircraft to impact.

The main problem is that the R-77 has similar performance and an ARH seeker, and in terms of long range AAMs the R-37M had almost three times the range.

The main feature of the R-27E is that it is in service already and comes in a huge number of seeker and rocket motor options... most of which are still useful and still in service.

AFAIK the ARH model of the R-27 has not entered widespread service and therefore is probably unlikely to.

Isos wrote:

GarryB wrote:I would think the days of the R-27AE are numbered.

On its own it has huge potential as active radar homing missiles can be launched at distant targets and then the launch aircraft is free to manouver, whereas a SARH missile the launch aircraft needs to be ready to paint the target with a radar beam when needed and keep a lock on that aircraft to impact.

The main problem is that the R-77 has similar performance and an ARH seeker, and in terms of long range AAMs the R-37M had almost three times the range.

The main feature of the R-27E is that it is in service already and comes in a huge number of seeker and rocket motor options... most of which are still useful and still in service.

AFAIK the ARH model of the R-27 has not entered widespread service and therefore is probably unlikely to.

I don't think there is still work being done on the R-27 and R-77. Russia is still using outdated R-27 from soviet stocks and the R-77 is just expported. They are focusing on missiles designed for Pak-Fa and they will be upgraded to go on earlier aircraft like Mig-29/35 and Su-27/30/35.

Against F-22 and F-35, they need an all new missile, not upgrading old design like R-27 with active homing head which is a good missile however. But it's better to have an all new missile.

R-77-1 has been seen few times on Su-35S

And work on Izd-180 (R-77M) is underway for it to be used on PAK-FA.