Bulgarian Army

What in your opinion would be the best new Russian aircraft if Bulgaria could buy it? However I highly doubt we can afford anything now since we don't even have enough money to maintain some of our airforce(all Bulgarian Su-25s and most Mi-24s are grounded and all resources  are going for  MiG-29A and trainer maintenance).

For Bulgaria I think an SMT upgrade of the Mig-29 makes it much much more effective as a fighter and light bomber, and makes it cheaper and easier to maintain.

You don't need AESAs and 300km range AAMs, just a good solid aircraft that can do a variety of jobs.

A Mig-AT or YAK-130 could be an option as a lead in fighter trainer with a secondary light fighter role as it can carry a range of weapons too.

I would have thought the Su-25 would be cheap enough to operate and something like an Su-25SM upgrade would give it guided air to ground capabilities too.

If you have very little money then single and two seat Mig-29SMTs is the most cost effective option in my opinion.

Bulgaria sold their Su-25.

medo wrote:Bulgaria sold their Su-25.

They sold them for scrapping at the Tbilissi (Georgia) factory where they were originally built....sad.

TheArmenian wrote:

medo wrote:Bulgaria sold their Su-25.

They sold them for scrapping at the Tbilissi (Georgia) factory where they were originally built....sad.

Not scrapping, for cannibalization and spares.

However that should tell you a lot about TAMs status and ability to make SU-25s today (in other words, lack of).

Thanks for your answers. IMO the best short term option for the Bulgarian option would be to upgrade its MiG-21bis squadron to MiG-21-93 standard so they could do advanced point defence duty. As for trainers we have the L-39Z that's in good condition and flying. It would take more time to familiarize with the highly different Yak-130 so the best option would be to buy the L-159 from the Czech republic(and it wouldn't have problems since we're both in NATO).

I agree that we should upgrade the MiG-29s to SMT or M2 standards however since we're in NATO we're more likely to get the Gripen instead(also a pretty good plane) if we have the money.

Correct me if Im wrong but Bulgarian people changed three governments in few months. Money is main problem and I doubt Bulgaria will order anything anytime soon.

Still it is interesting to see that during 70ies, Bulgaria had almost 500 planes. It was a huge army. S-300 was just starting to arrive when SSSR and WP broke out.

Sad thing is that now Bulgaria can not afford dozen of planes and its army is a shadow of what it was. Never again will it be so strong.

Even now its army exist almost solely on the basis of Soviet military equipment.

Yes unfortunately there has been a constant financial shortage since 1989.

During the cold war its true we had quite a few completely adequate aircraft like MiG-23MLD, Su-22M4, MiG-23BN that were decommissioned shortly after the change of government. I'll never forgive the officials who took down these aircraft that significantly strengthened our airforce  

TR1 wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:

medo wrote:Bulgaria sold their Su-25.

They sold them for scrapping at the Tbilissi (Georgia) factory where they were originally built....sad.

Not scrapping, for cannibalization and spares.

However that should tell you a lot about TAMs status and ability to make SU-25s today (in other words, lack of).  

TAM never was able to make a complete Su-25 without Russia, just the airframe. Given relations today, they will never produce another.

Absolutely, subsystems came from all over.
In recent years they tried to smuggle some of these through Russia to maintain their fleet, but were caught.

However lots of people were under the impression that they could finish the half-done airframes stored on the floor of the factory. This is just another nail in that theory.

thanks gary for the input, as always very good info, i dont suppose you the average cost for an average upgrade on the mig-21? just wondering if its worth while doing this considering its age, or would it be better to buy newer aircraft.

It would take time and money to develop a really good upgrade package for a Mig-21 and there is no guarantee you will get it right.

The Mig-21 has speed... which some new aircraft lack, but it also lacks in payload and range... with modern smart weapons the lack of payload is not a problem... a single laser guided 500kg bomb is going to be more effective than 20 dumb 500kgs bombs delivered by 5 Mig-21s against a small point target. Lack of range might be an issue however as the aircraft only has 5 weapon hard points and using one for a targeting pod would be useful.

At the end of the day it would probably be cheaper to go for older model current generation like an F-16 or Mig-29 or Gripen.

Of course the problem with Gripen is that it works best when integrated into an IADS, and most F-16s are totally worn out. Many Migs have been in storage but they condition is not that predictable either.

If I was a country looking for a good deal... if I was from the west and western oriented I would look at the airforces that are getting the F-35 and see which ones had the lowest use of their F-16s, but kept them in good order.
If I was me however I would be looking at Mig-29M2s... not the top model most expensive version... R-77s and R-73s will be fine and some TV guided bombs and missiles and a few laser guided bombs and missiles and some anti ship missiles and anti radiation missiles and I would be set.

Su-22's still have potential as great strike aircrafts, if given modern avionics.

Given modern avionics there is no reason why they couldn't be multirole fighter bombers.

Thanks for your answers. IMO the best short term option for the Bulgarian option would be to upgrade its MiG-21bis squadron to MiG-21-93 standard so they could do advanced point defence duty. As for trainers we have the L-39Z that's in good condition and flying. It would take more time to familiarize with the highly different Yak-130 so the best option would be to buy the L-159 from the Czech republic(and it wouldn't have problems since we're both in NATO).

I agree that we should upgrade the MiG-29s to SMT or M2 standards however since we're in NATO we're more likely to get the Gripen instead(also a pretty good plane) if we have the money.

I think Bulgaria should use its brains and show some balls and stand up at a full NATO meeting and say that the direct threats to Bulgaria that require lots of fighter aircraft does not exist and therefore you are going to spend you money on SMT upgrades for your Mig-29s and scrap your Mig-21s and keep your L-39s as jet trainers.

With the money you save on the reduced fighter purchase and the lower operating costs you can say you are going to buy some Il-476 or An-124 transport aircraft that will be available to support NATO operations (You might offer to buy A-400M aircraft when they are ready but I think Il-476s or An-124s would be more useful to NATO).

At the end of the day NATO operations must be a nightmare for the planners as everyone has their own fighters but so few have the other types like JSTARS and inflight refuelling aircraft and transports and AWACS aircraft.

Yes unfortunately there has been a constant financial shortage since 1989.

But Bulgaria is part of NATO and the EU... surely after two decades of democracy it must be thriving and growing economically... sorry sarcasm off.

Most "new" NATO countries got rid of their Migs and looked at buying western aircraft... even German kept their Mig-29s but without serious upgrades till the Typhoon was ready... if they had bothered to get together with MIG and develop a joint German Russian upgrade for the Mig-29 they could probably have continued to use it indefinitely and saved a lot of money they are now wasting on the Typhoon.

Equally other east european countries had plans to sell their Mig-29s and replace them with old worn out F-16s... if F-35 had been on time there would have been lots of F-16s for them to buy... not all of them totally worn out and useless...

Many looked at Mig-21 upgrades for a cheaper aircraft to operate, but shied away from a Mig-29SMT upgrade that would have greatly reduced operational costs for the Mig... the problem is of course that when you do that you really can't then justify selling all your Mig-29s and buying inferior old model F-16s. If you upgrade Mig-21s it is easier to say in 10 years time you need to upgrade and F-16s will be widely available by then.

What they should have done was given their Mig-29s a basic SMT upgrade to reduce operational costs and give it R-77 capability and they would have an F-16 equivalent much earlier and likely much cheaper and without having to retrain on western systems.

But of course that does not suit their new politics.

@Kommissar: Could you verify the information below ? Thank you.

soha.vn/quan-su/linh-bulgaria-noi-loan-vi-chinh-phu-bo-may-bay-nga-dung-hang-my-20141009143825339.htm (originally in Vietnamese)

Bulgarian goverment decided to stop using the Russian-made military aircrafts. This decisions caused a small protests inside the Air Force.

When they join NATO, poor countries in Eastern Europe can enjoy the protection of the West. But they have to pay a great price in order to be suitable with the military systems of rich countries. The recent issues of Bulgaria is a notable example.

According to Trud, Bulgarian goverment has just decided to retire the Russian military aircrafts. 15 MiG-29s, 6 MiG-21s, 14 Su-25s will have been gradually retired before 2020. Due to such events, 300 pilots, military engineers and technicians lost their job, and therefore a small protest has occured inside the Bulgarian army.

The Trud quoted that Bulgarian Defense Minister Velizar Shalamanov is the one who provide a strong support for this decision. The Minister claimed that Bulgaria has to be independent from Russia             and military independence is the first priority.

The truth is simply that, as Bulgaria has joined NATO, it has to use NATO weapons and cannot use Russian stuffs anymore. But Bulgaria is one of the poorest countries in NATO (sorry, Kommissar, I do not mean it), and NATO weapons are expensive, therefore it has been ten years but Bulgaria still has to use Russian weapons.

In order to replaced the retired Russian aircrafts, Defense Minister Shalamanov suggested that Bulgaria should use 300 mil euro to buy 8 new Western aircrafts. But some analysists criticized this proposal, they commented that Shalamanov is ignorant about weapon contracts. After all, with 300 mil euro Bulgaria can only buy second-hand F-16s. The price of brand-new aircraft is 100 euro/piece at least.

The Trud criticized that, at the moment, Bulgaria may have not find out how to buy second-hand F-16s. In 2013, Bulgaria tried to bought fighters from Portugal. Trud commented that Bulgaria can also buy aircrafts from Greece. Trud mentioned Portugal and Greece as a way to criticized the current Bulgaria's decision, because both Greece and Portugal are NATO members with severe financial problems.

Well, if Bulgaria do not want to use Russian MiGs and Su... sells it to Vietnam !      

One more amazing post of yours my friend!

"Catastrophic consequences" await the Bulgarian armed forces if they are not weaned soon from dependence on old Russian equipment and repairs, according to outgoing Defence Minister Velizar Shalamanov.

He was speaking in a BBC interview amid a war of words that has broken out between Bulgaria and Russia over Russian involvement in Ukraine and Russian pressure to speed up work on the South Stream gas pipeline, which will cross Bulgaria.

As an EU and Nato member with strong traditional links to Russia, Bulgaria is walking a tightrope between East and West.

Bulgaria was said to have frozen work on the Russian gas pipeline project in August, under EU and US pressure. According to Russia, work on the ground continues.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29593405

Airbornewolf wrote:

as a passenger, you got more space in an MI-8 AMTSh than a Blackhawk. besides the obvious thing that it does not feel like a deathtrap like a an Blackhawk where you would be trapped by all the tied-down cargo blocking the entrance, instead you just look to this gaping exit-ramp. like you would in an Chinook.

You think a Blackhawk helicopter is cramped - try standing up in a Mercedes Benz S class - very uncomfortable.

"NATO weaponry ceased to be good products after 1993, after that it became overpriced malfunctioning hardware that barely gets the job done in the millitary sense of saying. "

And how do you know this - you've used all this weaponry personally.

Of course, the Blackhawk helicopter is such a crap helicopter even Kamov agrees with you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-60

BlackArrow wrote:

Airbornewolf wrote:

as a passenger, you got more space in an MI-8 AMTSh than a Blackhawk. besides the obvious thing that it does not feel like a deathtrap like a an Blackhawk where you would be trapped by all the tied-down cargo blocking the entrance, instead you just look to this gaping exit-ramp. like you would in an Chinook.

You think a Blackhawk helicopter is cramped - try standing up in a Mercedes Benz S class - very uncomfortable.

"NATO weaponry ceased to be good products after 1993, after that it became overpriced malfunctioning hardware that barely gets the job done in the millitary sense of saying. "

And how do you know this - you've used all this weaponry personally.

Of course, the Blackhawk helicopter is such a crap helicopter even Kamov agrees with you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-60

What has the Ka-60 or Kamov to do with UH-60?

higurashihougi wrote:@Kommissar: Could you verify the information below ? Thank you.

soha.vn/quan-su/linh-bulgaria-noi-loan-vi-chinh-phu-bo-may-bay-nga-dung-hang-my-20141009143825339.htm (originally in Vietnamese)

Bulgarian goverment decided to stop using the Russian-made military aircrafts. This decisions caused a small protests inside the Air Force.

When they join NATO, poor countries in Eastern Europe can enjoy the protection of the West. But they have to pay a great price in order to be suitable with the military systems of rich countries. The recent issues of Bulgaria is a notable example.

According to Trud, Bulgarian goverment has just decided to retire the Russian military aircrafts. 15 MiG-29s, 6 MiG-21s, 14 Su-25s will have been gradually retired before 2020. Due to such events, 300 pilots, military engineers and technicians lost their job, and therefore a small protest has occured inside the Bulgarian army.

The Trud quoted that Bulgarian Defense Minister Velizar Shalamanov is the one who provide a strong support for this decision. The Minister claimed that Bulgaria has to be independent from Russia             and military independence is the first priority.

The truth is simply that, as Bulgaria has joined NATO, it has to use NATO weapons and cannot use Russian stuffs anymore. But Bulgaria is one of the poorest countries in NATO (sorry, Kommissar, I do not mean it), and NATO weapons are expensive, therefore it has been ten years but Bulgaria still has to use Russian weapons.

In order to replaced the retired Russian aircrafts, Defense Minister Shalamanov suggested that Bulgaria should use 300 mil euro to buy 8 new Western aircrafts. But some analysists criticized this proposal, they commented that Shalamanov is ignorant about weapon contracts. After all, with 300 mil euro Bulgaria can only buy second-hand F-16s. The price of brand-new aircraft is 100 euro/piece at least.

The Trud criticized that, at the moment, Bulgaria may have not find out how to buy second-hand F-16s. In 2013, Bulgaria tried to bought fighters from Portugal. Trud commented that Bulgaria can also buy aircrafts from Greece. Trud mentioned Portugal and Greece as a way to criticized the current Bulgaria's decision, because both Greece and Portugal are NATO members with severe financial problems.

Well, if Bulgaria do not want to use Russian MiGs and Su... sells it to Vietnam !      

I wouldn't be surprised(given we stopped operating many aircraft that played crucial roles in our airforce like Su-22M4s and Su-25s)although very few bulgarians(apart from real buffs) care. Our ruling right wing politicians become more full of themselves every month.  First it was "protesting russian imperialism" now "independence".

The bulgarian military, like much of the east european russophobe governments seems to be drinking copious amounts of western corporate coolaid and were tricked into some useless purchases because they looked all shiny, for example,C-27 spartans, we laready have An-12 yet we bought this third wheel,and our Panther helicopters, ours are only designed for rescue missions, not ASW even though Mi-8s  both have higher payload and are cheaper(besides if we were wise enough we could've bought second hand Ka-32s or Ka-26s).

Shalamanov is of course the usual idiot. From the moment I read  in 2011 how we were gonna buy 80s F-16s I knew something became really screwed up( even though back then was ofr the F-16s to SUPPLEMENT, not replace MiG-29s)

Bulgarian military has missed quite a lot of good deals in the last 20 years. Gripen, DCLS french stealth corvettes(we're stuck now with 70s belgian light frigates that are very near the end of their serviceable age).

Sorry for offtopic, but isn't new Mi-17 straight from factory more expensive than new Blackhawk?

Regular wrote:Sorry for offtopic, but isn't new Mi-17 straight from factory more expensive than new Blackhawk?

I don't think so... Don't know what the actual cost of both is, but sources say the UH-60 is a more expensive option to export countries.