S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?

mack8 wrote:Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?

PESA.

From MAKS-2013

Mindstorm wrote:Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).

The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .

NickM wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).

The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .

Which Patriot you are talking about ? Against the ERINT it has equal performance.. and perhaps 9M96 family is superior by having more maneuverability (60 G) Vs the ERINT (50 G)

There is something extremely interesting about Vityaz sytem - brutally to say at least    

According to experts, the key factor determining the effectiveness of the S-350E is its ability to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight, from extremely low to greater heights in all weather conditions, day and night, in difficult noise conditions.
This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles.

ALMAZ-ANTE LINK

once again

This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles

Meaning this sytem will have two modes of operations fundamentally different.


1. Search radar (1RL123 or any other in operational service or that will come) performs search function and alerts 50N6 radar which guides missiles to its targets.

2. There is no search radar. Search function as well as firing function are performed simultaneously (with two 50N6 per battery rottating in a synchronizing mode)

Implications on the battlefield are tremendous

Viktor wrote:

This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles

Meaning this sytem will have two modes of operations fundamentally different.


1. Search radar (1RL123 or any other in operational service or that will come) performs search function and alerts 50N6 radar which guides missiles to its targets.

2. There is no search radar. Search function as well as firing function are performed simultaneously (with two 50N6 per battery rottating in a synchronizing mode)

Implications on the battlefield are tremendous

Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.

That info however indicate that the 50N6 might operates in C-Band (5-8 Ghz) frequency..It's a compromise between search and tracking applications. I expect some clever time management method to balance between search and track processing.

Stealthflanker wrote:Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.

It's not even exactly new in Russia. The 30N6 is fully capable of operating in a search mode and prosecuting targets. The difference is that when you interface with a 36D6 or 64N6 you get much better situational awareness. The HQ-9 is probably the same way, as it also employs off-board EW radars, including a new 64N6 clone. Plus, the advantage to using off-board target acquisition sensors is that the engagement radar can stay out of lock-on mode until needed, remaining in search mode to provide midcourse corrections. Far less reaction time for the target.

NickM wrote:The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .

Don't let the fact that the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles have higher peak velocities get in your way or anything.

Viktor wrote:

mack8 wrote:Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?

PESA.

Hybrid PESA isnt it ?

Stealthflanker wrote:Which Patriot you are talking about ? Against the ERINT it has equal performance.. and perhaps 9M96 family is superior by having more maneuverability (60 G) Vs the ERINT (50 G)

PAC 3 . I am talking about acceleration & not velocity . The PAC 3 has better acceleration than any other SAM .

GarryB wrote:
BTW looking at the videos of the radar for the Vityaz does anyone know what the small rear facing box on the base of the turning radar is?

ie what is this:

Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.

SOC wrote:

Stealthflanker wrote:Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.

It's not even exactly new in Russia.  The 30N6 is fully capable of operating in a search mode and prosecuting targets.  The difference is that when you interface with a 36D6 or 64N6 you get much better situational awareness.  The HQ-9 is probably the same way, as it also employs off-board EW radars, including a new 64N6 clone.  Plus, the advantage to using off-board target acquisition sensors is that the engagement radar can stay out of lock-on mode until needed, remaining in search mode to provide midcourse corrections.  Far less reaction time for the target.

- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets. No MPQ-53, 30N6 or
HQ-9 battery has such ability - not even close.

- Certainly S-350 will have its dedicated search radar per battery but it remaines this uber waffe mode in case of need.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.

Correct, and most of the S-300/400 radars use space feeds. The one on the 30N6 is basically identical to this one, with the one on the 64N6 being a feedhorn assembly.

Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.

I'm not sure that passes the logic test. I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically. One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways. They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.

SOC wrote:

Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.

I'm not sure that passes the logic test.  I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically.  One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways.  They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.

The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

GarryB wrote:
BTW looking at the videos of the radar for the Vityaz does anyone know what the small rear facing box on the base of the turning radar is?

ie what is this:

Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.

Actually this fairing incorporates two linearly polarized feed systems, with at least the receive monopulse feed system having multiple horns and the polarization for one of the feed systems being horizontal with the other being vertical. In addition to these feed systems, there are a polarization-sensitive reflector and a quarter-wave plate under the fairing. Together, these components form a transmit/receive feed system obviating the need for a conventional duplexer, while at the same time providing an extremely high performance level.

You can read a more detailed description by David K Barton for the 30N6 family in

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Russian-SAM-Radars-DKB.html

Caveat: I am not vouching, at all, for the Air Power Australia or the Microwave Journal.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.

As stated in the article both are able to perform searching and shooting functions simultaneously.

SOC wrote:

Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.

I'm not sure that passes the logic test.  I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically.  One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways.  They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.

Or have sufficient rotation per minute  in order to feed up information to the missile.

Viktor wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.

As stated in the article both are able to perform searching and shooting functions simultaneously.

I am assuming that you are referring to the article at the following link which you had provided earlier.

http://www.almaz-antey.ru/about/press/production/1574.html

My knowledge of Russian language is extremely poor; so I have used Yandex to translate the relevant passage which I have reproduced in the following.

"This is achieved through the use of WRU (ЗРС, зенитная ракетная система--Morpheus Eberhardt) first developed in our country fundamentally new information tools - multifunctional radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and radar accurate tracking of targets and anti-aircraft guided missiles."

All I am saying is that for only one or two 50N6Ye radars to provide coverage over a 360 degree sector some degree of mechanical scanning would be required. Two 50N6Ye radars can implement this in many different ways. Also in my opinion this doesn't, in any manner, contradict the above passage. One fact that the article is implying is that 50N6Ye can "optimally" perform the search, track (with hard lock-ons), and missile guidance. In reality it can performs other roles also that weren't mentioned.

It should be kept in mind that, unlike the case for 50N6Ye, in general, when an ESA or any other type of sensor is said to be capable of performing search, it doesn't mean that its capabilities are "optimal" or even "acceptable" in performing that function.

SOC wrote:
This is why doing math at 3AM is best left to people designated Not Me   This is actually pretty close to the example I give in class when covering Newton's Laws, explaining how F=ma is actually oversimplified in the real world.  I explain the idea of a rocket with decreasing mass, and then you can see the lightbulbs go on when I tell them that their car does the same thing.

That being said, it's going to be more complicated for a SAM.  To make this as accurate as possible you also need to factor in the various drag effects of the airframe shape, the control surfaces, and drag created by the manipulation of control fins, any body lift generated, etc.  This will all amount to a small decrease in what you'd calculate above, but it will manifest itself differently based on the individual missile characteristics.  

Hence why the most ridiculous accelerators are conical with very, very large high impulse boosters.  And why I have taken to using various programs to figure this crap out for me a lot faster  

I did this... try figuring out maneuverability (Theoritically at least) for 5V28 missiles of S-200..quite long..with some readings on Fleeman's and Nielsen's book.. finally got a figure of 17G of possible maneuverability at high altitude to kill SR-71's.

But then though theoritically possible.. i'm still awaits for better data to improve accuracy.

Now i have several spreadsheets..each detailing one missile...it's kinda long and tedious calculations (especially i'm not a programmer..which would mean excel is my hope) But it's kinda happy if i managed to get at least a reasonable result

Now i'm looking stuff about grid fins and how to calculate its effect to maneuverability.

With respect to the 50N6Ye search mode, there seems to be some info at

http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/sites/default/files/gallery/s.gurov/13/09/01/img_2216.jpg

According to my extremely limited understanding of the Russian language, the spec sheet seems to be indicating that in the search/TWS mode the mechanical rotational speed of the array is 40 RPM. As I mentioned previously this mode would be somewhat similar to that of the 64N6 family, for example.

By the way, as an aside, a missile system that incorporates a missile like one from the 9M96 family, with a guidance system that incorporates ARH+INS+datalink, can actually be satisfactorily supported, in many circumstances, with just a radar with TWS (track while scan-only) capabilities; so a capability for achieving a hard lock would not even be needed. After all S-25, S-75, and S-125 can all do this even for the variants of their missiles that were "command-only" (i.e., the variants of their missiles with no homing heads).

To sum up this possibility, the 50N6Ye would be rotating mechanically over a 360 degree or smaller sector, providing search+IFF+TWS+datalink support to the missiles. It should be mentioned that this method is within the possibilities of S-350Ye, but it doesn't capitalize on most of the system's other capabilities. It should be kept in mind that S-350Ye would have TVM/SAGG capabilities which have to be supported by 50N6Ye.

- Testing done by 2014
- Mass production in 2015
- Mass deliveries 2016
- all according to schedule  

Russian Army to Receive Vityaz Air Defense Systems in 2016

Viktor wrote:- Testing done by 2014
- Mass production in 2015
- Mass deliveries 2016
- all according to schedule  

Russian Army to Receive Vityaz Air Defense Systems in 2016

Excellent. Any more informations about Morphei? It is all quiet about it.

medo wrote:Excellent. Any more informations about Morphei? It is all quiet about it.

Probably they have some problems so no info yet. I was hopping to catch some info about it on MAKS-2013 but nothing.

Anyway Morfei is scheduled for 2015 so there is still plenty of time to finished it. I think Morfei is much more demanding system to construct and finish all development and research work

than most other. I think that even if Almaz-Antej prolongs work on the Morfei system it does not matter since it is conceptually excellent fit in its existing AD network.

this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa?     

Rpg type 7v wrote:this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa?     

You are right, like new Arleigh Burkes with PESA, it is useless.

What an amateur analysis lol.