S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

NickM wrote: Ok . So what do you think is the peak velocity of the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles because it can't be more than the Patriot ?

I think you are just another victim of US propaganda . Remember that US sells weapons.. and they need to advertise
everything being better than any other technology in the world or any time in future. It was the same with the F-117..
Most Americans believed it was 'undetectable' and movies were made to showcase its invincibility . Until it was shot down in serbia by a very old soviet sam..and that was the last time it flew it was canceled after that.

So americans have been mislead by its own government ,to think that no other cultures can do anything better than them.
But reality is that we are all humans.. and (IF education is the same) there is nothing that stop anyone in a foreign nation to have an engineer or scientist as capable is not better than in the west. The only advantage that US had over other countries (at least in the past).. was MONEY.. that they could hire the best international scientist to make technology for them. Just like the atomic Bombs. that was created by a group of the best international scientist money could buy.. but the project leader an american(Robert Oppenheimer) took credit for it. when in reality it was an italian Enrico Fermi ,the soul of the project and the real father of the atomic bomb..who created the first nuclear reactor in the world . Tesla and Newton none of them were americans either. one serbian the other german jew but they migrated to US for its economy .There are more than 1,000 Russians working for INTEL.. in case you didnt knew. There is also lots of Indians too. The discovery of 'stealth technology' the way to reduce radar signature was the work of a russian scientist who worked for US after collpase of Soviet Union.. And its discoveries allowed americans to create stealth planes first before of anyone . That said.. a scientist is a scientist and its nationality is irrelevant. What matters is its education and the funding and support he receive for its investigation. Cost a lot of money to design things.. specially for defense industry.

Here is american secret weapon in technology..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

Since Russia lacks the economy to produce/maintain a huge navy and airforce like US have for many decades . Russia have been focused instead ,in improving their defensive weapons and its nuclear deterrence . This is the reason why Russia is far ahead of NATO  in rocket propulsion and tactical missiles. While US was throwing away their money in irrelevant space flights to plant a flag in the moon ,space stations ,building a huge navy and airforce ,middle east wars..and Foreign Aid.. ie.. busy creating an Empire..Russia was quietly working in the research of defensive weapons and modernizing their military technology

and to answer your question.. lol

When it comes to Sam defenses..but also  cruise missiles and ballistic missiles IMO.. US and NATO are at least
2 or even 3 decades behind Russia. Since they have supersonic missiles since the soviet union times in early 80's and NATO have none ..Now Russia is testing with India *Hypersonic* cruise missiles with mach 5.0 speeds
and NATO have yet to release a single supersonic mach 1.0 cruise missile.

Some numbers for you..
Sams defenses missiles speed and others

Air defense systems
US
Patriots pac-3/Sm-2...   mach 4-5.0.  (main NATO defense system) range 160-190km
   
RIM-162 ESSM      mach 4.0  50km
US aegis SM-3   ~mach 8.0  (limited only to ballistic Non maneuverable missiles in space)

Russian
S-300s  ....     mach 7.0.     range 200km
S-400s......     mach 12.0.   range 400km
S-500s ....      mach 20.0    range 600km    (still in test)
Russian A-135 mach ---      super classified.. main Russian defense system against nuclear ICBM.
                                    rare videos on internet ,they appear to be at least 5x faster than Iskanders in
                                    acceleration. an like 2-3x times of topol.. so their speed should be around mach 30 or more.

offensive weapons..
Russian Iskanders-m  mach 9.0  ~500km-800km range  
Russian topol M..      mach 24.0  11,000 km range  




Cruise missiles speed..
US Tomahawks /harpoon ... mach 0.8  (NATO main land attack and anti-ship missiles)  ~2500km /   120km  

Russia Kalibr/Oniks     ...   ~mach 3.0                                                                 ~2600km/    300km/700km  
Russia kh-31              .... ~mach 4.0 (launched from airplanes anti-ship)                  ~200km range
Russia/India brahmos2   ...~ mach 5.0 (first world hypersonic cruise missiles)              300km

If you want to know what US Navy thinks of Russian Kalibr antiship cruise missiles.. read here.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=home


In comparison notice how slow subsonic missiles are..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzvFZnew41U

here is the latest NATO cruise missile..[NSM] made by norway..
better than US harpoon with 300km range but still subsonic speed.
www.military.com/video/guided-missiles/antiship-missiles/jet-fighter-chases-naval-strike-missile/1187576322001/

Russian pilots part of their training is defeat  cruise missiles by chasing them and using IR missiles.
In the other hand you can't chase a super sonic mach 3 cruise missile... with a combat jet

To your original question..As you can see..' it can be more than Patriots'..of course it can.
US or NATO don't have the technology exclusive. Is available for all. What USA is for Computers and electronics..
Russia is for rocket propulsion and missiles. But contrary to US that have the help of all NATO countries
and Israel to develop their hardware.. Russia almost have to do it all alone.

here is a video that shows an F-22 being defeated by a light and much cheaper combat jet..
https://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE

Modern Russian Sukhois will have a much easier time than a french Rafale planes since they have
3d vector engines..and are much more maneuverable than any other modern plane.

Moral of the story ,Each country have their own advantages
in their own things. And in military hardware Russia is not only competitive with NATO in most things but at times even surpassing them. Which is good ,competition is what drives innovation.

a good report that illustrate Russian progress with military technology for missiles
but also combat planes .

https://youtu.be/sNRMO70Hw0s

Viktor wrote:2. 2014 testing of S-350 Vityaz 

Interesting . Why do they want to carry out more tests ?

The South Korean version of S 350 called Cheongung (Iron Hawk) MR-SAM co-developed with  Almaz Design Bureau (among others) entered the series-production phase last year .

Deep Throat wrote:

Viktor wrote:2. 2014 testing of S-350 Vityaz 

Interesting . Why do they want to carry out more tests ?

The South Korean version of S 350 called Cheongung (Iron Hawk) MR-SAM co-developed with  Almaz Design Bureau (among others) entered the series-production phase last year .

Because no matter similar origin we are talking about very much two different systems. Even the missile is not the same and Russian one packs much greater punch.

Everything is as planed ... nice. 

New medium-range SAM "Hero" is scheduled to ship to the troops in 2015-2016

Viktor wrote:Because no matter similar origin we are talking about very much two different systems.

Almaz Antey had clarified that the South Korean version is based on the S 350 . Almaz developed three radar units for the KM-SAM .

Viktor wrote:Even the missile is not the same

Which missiles ? The short range ones or the long range ones ?

Viktor wrote:Russian one packs much greater punch.

For greater punch there is the S 500 or for that matter even the S 400 . The S 350 is basically designed to fill the gap between S 400 and S 500 . Eventually the idea is to replace all the S 400 with the S 500 .

The S 500 by itself does have the potential to perform all the job that the S 350 is mandated to do . Though the idea is to complement the S 500 with the S 350 .

The S 350 will in all likelihood be marketed as an export product . But in this space it will face competition not just from the Korean KM SAM but also from similar models being marketed by China and Turkey .

Almaz Antey had clarified that the South Korean version is based on the S 350 . Almaz developed three radar units for the KM-SAM .

Yes, Almaz Antej did a great chunk of work during KM-SAM  development and no matter Vityaz and KM-SAM have the same dad they are still two very different systems. 

Deep Throat wrote:Which missiles ? The short range ones or the long range ones ?

Any missiles. 



9M96 series







MK-SAM






Now both missiles where design by Almaz-Antej yet you will notice different design principles and different layout. Also you will notice that 9M96 class (both small and long range ones)

have much higher performance in altitude and range than MK-SAM. 

Deep Throat wrote:For greater punch there is the S 500 or for that matter even the S 400 .

I was reffering to S-350/KM-SAM where S-350 pack a much greater punch than KM-SAM.

Deep Throat wrote:The S 350 is basically designed to fill the gap between S 400 and S 500 . Eventually the idea is to replace all the S 400 with the S 500 . 

Nope. S-350 is designed to replace older versions of S-300 system that will be retired by 2015. S-350 by its capabilities is much below S-400 and if you want to look at situation from that angle than you would have hierarchy like this. S-500 -> S-400 -> S-300Favorit -> S-350 etc where S-350 has much lower capabilities than even S-300Favorit looking at its range and speed and all. But S-350 tier in hierarchy has its specific task to accomplish and therefore is not meant to compete S-400 and S-300Favorit. 

Deep Throat wrote:The S 500 by itself does have the potential to perform all the job that the S 350 is mandated to do . Though the idea is to complement the S 500 with the S 350 . 

Idea is to have enough radar systems in all wavelengths, ranges and altitude to have radar picture of all airspace and command centers that calculate threats, passing that information

to numerous layers of air defence systems so NOTHING can pass by.  

Deep Throat wrote:The S 350 will  in all likelihood be marketed as an export product . But in this space it will face competition not just from the Korean KM SAM but also from similar models being marketed by China and Turkey 

S-350 has no competition. By its capabilities it surpasses all of them by large margin (even SAMP-T) and Russia as a country with most extensive experience in airdefense design can offer supplementary equpment that no one else can. 

medo wrote:As I know, they already have 34 Pantsirs (10 + 12 + 12). With 6 more, there will be 40.

I think you are right.
40 Pancir-S1 is respectful number already.

Range is just one factor of missile , the other would be performance/Energy , kill probability against wide range of targets including high G manouvering ones , ability to deal with saturation attack , Autonomous Capability and last but not least Performance of Radar in hostile EW ECM/ECCM environment.

Vityaz would surpass any S-300 model and could be even better under certain scenerio than S-400 in the above mentioned criteria.

Austin wrote:Range is just one factor of missile , the other would be performance/Energy , kill probability against wide range of targets including high G manouvering ones , ability to deal with saturation attack , Autonomous Capability and last but not least Performance of Radar in hostile EW ECM/ECCM environment.

Vityaz would surpass any S-300 model and could be even better under certain scenerio than S-400 in the above mentioned criteria.

What?? Austin, get some sleep. 


Do you really want to compare BIG missile in the back (48N6E2) with those two tiny in front (9M96 class) and systems needed to guide BIG one with the systems needed to guide small ones?    and the impact on the battlefield when BIG one appears?   

Big and Tiny have their own pro/cons depending on what you are dealing with.

Minuturisation of electronics and materials used have helped greatly reducing the size/weight of 9M96 without compromising any of its capability.

Austin wrote:Big and Tiny have their own pro/cons depending on what you are dealing with.

Minuturisation of electronics and materials used have helped greatly reducing the size/weight of 9M96 without compromising any of its capability.

Really Austin? 

Tell me Austin, what do you think, are Americans more afraid (when flying in JSTARS or AWACS or F-15 in a mission) of several 40N6 (400km range),9M82M(350km range), 48N6E2 (250km range) OR 120km range 9M96? Dont make me laugh. 

Each version has its importance and is best in its class and what it does but to say a S-350 is better in any way than S-400 or S-300Favorit is a very big mastake Austin.

I said Vityaz is better than S-300 and even S-400 in certain condition ie to deal with certain types of target and dealing with saturation attack as 9M96 has its own ARH seeker that provides a degree of autonomy.

If Vityaz was never better than S-300 which its planning to replace then why would they build it in first place ?

Austin wrote:I said Vityaz is better than S-300 and even S-400 in certain condition ie to deal with certain types of target and dealing with saturation attack as 9M96 has its own ARH seeker that provides a degree of autonomy.

You do realize that 9M96 missiles are integral part of S-400 and S-300Favorit? So how can a S-350 (with 9M96 class) be better system during saturation attacks than S-400 that besides 

9M96 class has 48N6E2/40N6 and a radar and command post with absolutely brutal performance?  

Austin wrote:If Vityaz was never better than S-300 which its planning to replace then why would they build it in first place ?

Vityaz is replacing old versions of S-300 system while newer ones are being modernized to Favorit standard. Vityaz will bear a crown for what it is intended to do but that is not to compete with higher tier SAMs 

9M96 was part of S-400 SAM but not sure it still would be after the advent of Vityaz. Most likely S-400 will end up having 2 types of missile 48N6E2 and 40N6.......I could be wrong but lets see......

Also looking at just the missile outside shell does not say much , Most certainly Vityaz will exploit all the advancement made in Electronics and Rocket fuel , Radars etc ....to say the least we know little about Vityaz and more about its export cousin S-350E.

No the upgrade to PM-1/2 standard is a transient one ..once Vityaz is available in number they would replace the entire S-300 series starting with older models.

Austin wrote:9M96 was part of S-400 SAM but not sure it still would be after the advent of Vityaz. Most likely S-400 will end up having 2 types of missile 48N6E2 and 40N6.......I could be wrong but lets see......

Haha you are persistent even when proven wrong. So you are basically saying that the system which uses some missile is better then the one that besides that class, has two more and much more powerful types of missiles, because the other system may not use the previous class but you are not sure   

Austin wrote:Also looking at just the missile outside shell does not say much , Most certainly Vityaz will exploit all the advancement made in Electronics and Rocket fuel , Radars etc ....to say the least we know little about Vityaz and more about its export cousin S-350E

And you really think that 48N6E2 huge increase in range, speed, precision, etc came out of nowhere?

Austin   , advances in science are implemented on all areas of military activities not just some. 

Got some info on S-350E from http://www.missiles.ru/

S-350E provide reliable problem solving defense of civil and military installations from various massive strikes, including high-speed and stealth, including tactical and operational-tactical ballistic missiles, modern and future air attack. The effectiveness of air defense missile systems based on its ability to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight (from extremely low to high altitude) in any weather conditions, day and night in difficult noise conditions.

The composition of the AAMS include: command and control point (MODU) 50K6E, multifunction radar (MFR) 50N6E (up to 2 units) and launchers (PU) 50P6E (up to 8 units) with twelve anti-aircraft guided missiles of medium-range 9M96E2 (developer - of "IBC "Torch" them. PD Grushin "). The main highlight of the AAMS is multifunctional radar detection of air targets of a new type which has no analogues in Russia. This station is the main communication tool of S-350E, working in a circular and sectoral modes and provides tracking up to 100 targets. Manage MPR and PU done remotely from the point of command and control, which can be removed from them at a distance of 2 km. All components are placed on AAMS unified chassis BAZ-69092-012, manufactured by JSC "Bryansk Wheeled Tractor Plant." The launcher is designed for transportation, storage, automatic prelaunch and launch anti-aircraft guided missiles. Missile launches are possible at intervals of 2 seconds System C-350E is capable of hitting up to 16 or up to 12 aerodynamic ballistic targets, the maximum number of simultaneously induced SAM - 32. This provides for aerodynamic purposes loss ranges from 1.5 to 60 km altitude and - from 0.01 up to 30 km, and ballistic - 1.5 to 30 km, and between 2 and 25 km, respectively. Time to bring in funds AAMS embattled from the march is only five minutes, a crew - 3 people. The system has high mobility and survivability, can operate autonomously, conducting independent military operations, and as part of air defense groups under the control of the parent command posts. Combat work S-350E is taught entirely automatically, and provides only a crew trained to work AAMS and controls the subsequent course of the fighting.

http://missiles2go.ru/

Plenty of room for "Hero"

n During the work Airshow on questions "Arrows" answered deputy General Director-General by organization Research and development - first replaced stitel General Designer JSC "GSKB" Almaz - Antey " Nicholas Nenartovich.


- A than more can attract Foreign partners our "Hero"?

- In S-350E fundamentally new architecture locator. It is applied fully digital signal processing. Dramatically reduced the amount of equipment several times reduced the number of units compared with the S-400 "Triumph", without derating AAMS.

In the production of significantly reduced the complexity of manufacturing. And most importantly, perhaps, is that all those approaches which are laid to create the C-350E, serve as the basis for all our further developments. In the future, we plan to create a line of multi-function radars for air defense missile systems of various types of missile defense, air defense long-range, medium-range.

However, this requirement is the time - to build on the common technological approaches, single equipment that allows to unify the product. And in the "Vityaz" we laid evrokonstruktiv modern, which is much simpler and at the same time effectively applied earlier. Worked out a new antenna design that significantly less expensive.

- A as one can position new AAMS -350 C to E respect to C and -300 With -400 "Triumph"?

- S-350E is positioned as a system that should replace the S-300PT (PS). You and I have had the first such system boundary of the affected area of ​​75 km. The new complex, we also go out to a range of 60 km, but the ammunition on one launcher of 12 missiles that significantly more "trehsotki." In addition, the locator works in fully automatic mode, and a crew is in paragraph combat control and protected from attacks of the same type of high-speed anti-radar missiles HARM.

In S-350E laid great modernization potential. The same launcher AAMS further can take not only medium-range missile, but also short-range missiles.

  

State trials of Vityaz missile system to end by 2015 - Almaz-Antey exec

things are going smooth with Vityaz.

Nice   

Production of anti-aircraft S-350 "Hero" will begin next year


Test air defense missile system ( ADMS) C-350 " Hero ", first presented in August at the MAKS-2013, should be completed by early 2015, after production begins, the general director of the North-West Regional Center of Concern PVO " Almaz-Antey " ( Developer SAM) Michael Podvyaznikov . According weapons program, with 2016 expected to begin shipping the new complex in troops, company intends to sustain this period, he added. Production complexes involved belongs to the concern " GOZ Obukhov plant "in St. Petersburg.

SAM " Vityaz "is fully automatic - a crew provides only deploy complex and controls the course of hostilities, said in the prospectus " Almaz-Antey ". It uses rocket 9M96E2 created based on " small "missile system S-300, whereby one launcher accommodates 12 rockets at once. Two multifunction radar guidance to enable simultaneous 32 missiles on 16 aerodynamic targets, defeat is provided at a range of up to 60 km and at an altitude of 10 m to 30 km. Possible defeat ballistic targets. Although the " Vityaz "if necessary, may act autonomously, in Russia it will be part of a hierarchical system of air defense system along with short-range " shell "complexes and long-range S-400 and S-500 and replace the outdated S-300PS modification. According Podvyaznikova production volume of the new complex will be sufficient to fully replace the C-300.

On what gear will be based production model " Vityaz "show trials Podvyaznikov added. Variants of production " Bryansk Automobile Plant "and " Minsk Wheel Tractor Plant. "

Only technique to force air and space defense weapons in the state program for 2011-2020. planned to allocate more than 3.4 trillion rubles.



http://www.vedomosti.ru/companies/news/21674331/proizvodstvo-zenitnyh-kompleksov-vityaz-nachnetsya-v#ixzz2rKg7DFsF

As I know, 9M96E2 have range of 120 km. 9M96D have range of 60 km and I think it is domestic version of export 9M96E1, which have range of 40 km. Maybe domestic long range 9M96 could have range around 150 km.

Yes 20380s definitely have the smaller ranged missiles.

They have a hard enough time with Furke, the 150km missiles would be out of its capability.

Limiting the export missile to 60km is weird though. Especially since it is a huge hit (50% or more) and considering that Russia sells the longer ranged Favorit...

   

Another confirmation - Almaz-Antey seems not to have any problems with it

Russia will start serial production of complex defense "Hero" in 2015

9M100