Mary Walsh @CBSWalsh
New details on #Syria jet shoot down: US F18 fired 2 missiles at range of .6 miles; 1st missed, 2nd blew rear SU-22 off; chute spotted
JohninMK wrote:Bit more on the F-18 attack from Washington. Yup, 50% hit rate at under 900m, still the Su-22 was new tech........oh wait
Mary Walsh @CBSWalsh
New details on #Syria jet shoot down: US F18 fired 2 missiles at range of .6 miles; 1st missed, 2nd blew rear SU-22 off; chute spotted
miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....
Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?
I know your expertise. Might Mike have been talking about radar power range rather than missile range?Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....
Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?
There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.
Yes, after SU-22 was shot.
JohninMK wrote:I know your expertise. Might Mike have been talking about radar power range rather than missile range?Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....
Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?
There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.
Yes, after SU-22 was shot.
Wouldn't take Russia long to install more radars to make 'lighting up' Coalition aircraft easier. No need for SAMs with them. Well all of them anyway.
I would expect the SAA, especially the Tigers in the north, to be taking as many anti-air assets along with them as they can find.
miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range. 91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.
So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more. Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6. 48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.
Militarov wrote:JohninMK wrote:I know your expertise. Might Mike have been talking about radar power range rather than missile range?Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....
Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?
There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.
Yes, after SU-22 was shot.
Wouldn't take Russia long to install more radars to make 'lighting up' Coalition aircraft easier. No need for SAMs with them. Well all of them anyway.
I would expect the SAA, especially the Tigers in the north, to be taking as many anti-air assets along with them as they can find.
IF he was talking about radar coverage, in terms of pure observing, and aerial target detection in theory ranges for 91N6E should be even greater than 400km, closing 600km. However that depends on many, many things, from humidity to target altitude and jamming...
However S-400 batallion can enjoy few types of radars, its not clear what Russians did bring to Syria beside 91N6E which is clearly present.
Thing is that you can limit your radar coverage on console, question is why would you, no agreement can force you to do so basically. It can force you to not fly to some areas, or not intervene somewhere, but radar coverage is everyones right, be it military or civilian installation.
I am afraid Tiger forces are not equiped or trained to operate extensive air-defence equipment, nor Syrains have any to spare. Problem is that Tigers and Hawks are trying to be mobile, which generally speaking air-defence isnt. So at best we can expect them seeing some SHORADs, Strela, Igla....
Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range. 91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.
So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more. Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6. 48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.
That is not how it really works i am afraid
48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.
Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.
So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.
Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.
Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.
TR1 wrote:I'll just quote SOC (Sean O'Conner):
"The weapon with the fixed control fins was a modified 48N6 fired in the 80s to see if they could get one out to 400 km as part of the initial development work on the S-400 concept; the ceiling was actually around 70 km for this test. It worked! They re-captured the missile using the modified TOMB STONE radar as it descended to about 20 km and guided it from there.
Only the 48N6 uses directional warheads, the 5V55s did not.
The SAGG guidance mode confers a higher degree of accuracy than pure TVM, relatively speaking, making the concept workable at range from an accuracy standpoint.
The 48N6 and 5V55 missiles do use a semi-ballistic trajectory, they top out around 38 km. They also are moving at around Mach 6 at burnout (motors run for about 10 seconds on the 5V55s and 12 seconds on the 48N6s). That velocity means very small control inputs translate into significant course deviations. The problem is that the missile bleeds off kE as it maneuvers, which causes it to lose velocity, which leaves it with less kE to maneuver again, and so on. The system gets around this by not going into full guidance mode until endgame, meaning your RWR gear likely isn't telling you "holy crap we've been shot at" until the missile is only a few seconds away. That solves part of the problem by leaving you far less time to maneuver, which is advantage: missile. Plus, again, you've got a nice big warhead to exploit as well.
It's the total combination of engagement geometry, velocity, and warhead capability that makes the system effective, even at very long range. "
miketheterrible wrote:Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range. 91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.
So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more. Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6. 48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.
That is not how it really works i am afraid
48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.
Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.
So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.
Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.
Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.
Go on keypublishing forums. TR1 whom was a member here and far more educated on these systems than us, explained it. It was also mentioned by director of Almaz Antey back in 2012 that 48N6D was rated to 300km.TR1 wrote:I'll just quote SOC (Sean O'Conner):
"The weapon with the fixed control fins was a modified 48N6 fired in the 80s to see if they could get one out to 400 km as part of the initial development work on the S-400 concept; the ceiling was actually around 70 km for this test. It worked! They re-captured the missile using the modified TOMB STONE radar as it descended to about 20 km and guided it from there.
Only the 48N6 uses directional warheads, the 5V55s did not.
The SAGG guidance mode confers a higher degree of accuracy than pure TVM, relatively speaking, making the concept workable at range from an accuracy standpoint.
The 48N6 and 5V55 missiles do use a semi-ballistic trajectory, they top out around 38 km. They also are moving at around Mach 6 at burnout (motors run for about 10 seconds on the 5V55s and 12 seconds on the 48N6s). That velocity means very small control inputs translate into significant course deviations. The problem is that the missile bleeds off kE as it maneuvers, which causes it to lose velocity, which leaves it with less kE to maneuver again, and so on. The system gets around this by not going into full guidance mode until endgame, meaning your RWR gear likely isn't telling you "holy crap we've been shot at" until the missile is only a few seconds away. That solves part of the problem by leaving you far less time to maneuver, which is advantage: missile. Plus, again, you've got a nice big warhead to exploit as well.
It's the total combination of engagement geometry, velocity, and warhead capability that makes the system effective, even at very long range. "
eehnie wrote:Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.
And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.
Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.
Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.
kvs wrote:The mighty US air force managed to shoot the Syrian Su-22 only because they caught it completely by surprise. That is,
this incident was a stab in the back. Trying to paint Americans as some sort of higher alien life form with IQs beyond that
of mere primitives like Russians is the product of retarded fanboi fantasy.
As of now the US has lost its surprise stab in the back advantage and any Syrian aircraft will be fully informed of any Daesh
airforce craft in its vicinity and those Daesh airforce wunderwaffe will be painted by Russian radar and S-400 system tracking.
US and other NATO pilots will be uncomfortable in any cowboy improv.
calm wrote:Some old photos of Resafa
SAA captured historic Resafa today. Here are some photos of the place. And it's water tanks, i wonder what do they look like today.
from 10+ years ago
.........
Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Militarov wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range. 91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.
So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more. Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6. 48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.
That is not how it really works i am afraid
48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.
Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.
So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.
Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.
Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.
Go on keypublishing forums. TR1 whom was a member here and far more educated on these systems than us, explained it. It was also mentioned by director of Almaz Antey back in 2012 that 48N6D was rated to 300km.TR1 wrote:I'll just quote SOC (Sean O'Conner):
"The weapon with the fixed control fins was a modified 48N6 fired in the 80s to see if they could get one out to 400 km as part of the initial development work on the S-400 concept; the ceiling was actually around 70 km for this test. It worked! They re-captured the missile using the modified TOMB STONE radar as it descended to about 20 km and guided it from there.
Only the 48N6 uses directional warheads, the 5V55s did not.
The SAGG guidance mode confers a higher degree of accuracy than pure TVM, relatively speaking, making the concept workable at range from an accuracy standpoint.
The 48N6 and 5V55 missiles do use a semi-ballistic trajectory, they top out around 38 km. They also are moving at around Mach 6 at burnout (motors run for about 10 seconds on the 5V55s and 12 seconds on the 48N6s). That velocity means very small control inputs translate into significant course deviations. The problem is that the missile bleeds off kE as it maneuvers, which causes it to lose velocity, which leaves it with less kE to maneuver again, and so on. The system gets around this by not going into full guidance mode until endgame, meaning your RWR gear likely isn't telling you "holy crap we've been shot at" until the missile is only a few seconds away. That solves part of the problem by leaving you far less time to maneuver, which is advantage: missile. Plus, again, you've got a nice big warhead to exploit as well.
It's the total combination of engagement geometry, velocity, and warhead capability that makes the system effective, even at very long range. "
As i said it was a testing, it was never fielded, it was used as base for 40N6 development. It never reached any mature stage as itself.
Same way i could come and say how Serbia has 140km range 262mm rockets for Orcan. Sure, development started, stuff has been worked on, it never reached units however. Just baseline variant was ever fielded.
Fact that someone, somewhere, managed to do this or that, doesnt mean its allpresent, especially not in Syria. So, 250km it is, in ideal situation, which never occures.
Militarov wrote:eehnie wrote:Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.
And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.
Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.
Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.
Syria cant enforce no fly zone over two blocks of Damascus, let alone Syria lol
Militarov wrote:eehnie wrote:Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.
And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.
Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.
Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.
Syria cant enforce no fly zone over two blocks of Damascus, let alone Syria lol
Rules of engagement (ROE) are rules or directives to military forces (including individuals) that define the circumstances, conditions, degree, and manner in which the use of force, or actions which might be construed as provocative, may be applied.[1] They provide authorization for and/or limits on, among other things, the use of force and the employment of certain specific capabilities.