Domestic production of marine engines for Russian Navy

Singular_Transform wrote:

kvs wrote:

George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines

The bmpd comment. In fact, it is a question of the project of equipping three unfinished frigates of the modified project 11356 with the all-mode main power plant as part of two gas turbine units, each of which will consist of two M70FRU gas turbine engines with a maximum capacity of 14 thousand hp each. Production of PJSC NPO Saturn. The total maximum power of the GEM will thus be 56,000 hp. (Maximum capacity of the full-scale project of the project 11356 - 60900 hp).

However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

They couldn't resist smearing some mental shit at the end.   They claim the delay from designing the gear boxes is going to be longer than
from developing the gas-turbine engines.   The clowns at bmpd need to get an education and quick.   They make it sound like Russia
never built ship transmissions and gear assemblies, that Russia does not have the metallurgical capability.  And that somehow a gas turbine
engine is a simpler device than a gear box.  God, what an idiotic pile of Chicken Little excrement.  

It is not simply "gear box".

It is a complicated  transmission between the diesel engine, gas turbine and propeller.

"Simply" to connect a gas turbine to a generator require design that incorporation the turbine with the generator AND extensive testing and validation all three together.

One of the main problem is the vibration of the turbine / transmission / propeller / diesel engine.

Means that the turbine has a critical frequency (multiple actually) all component has  one as well, and the system together has a sepratated critical frequency.

So, even if they manufacture a proto turbine ,reduction gear and propeller they still have to do extensive testing to prove that they won't destroy themselves and the ship.

Spare your pseudo-educated babble. A gas turbine engine is vastly more complex than any transmission.

http://www.wartsila.com/docs/default-source/product-files/gears-propulsors/gears/wartsila-o-gears.pdf

http://www.schaeffler.de/content.schaeffler.de/en/branches/industry/power_transmission/applications_5/marine_reduction_gear/marine_reduction_gear.jsp

Look at the vast complexity of standard gears, no turbine blade can come close...says the teenager. Who cares about
high temperature combustion.



vs.



According to the troll the device in the upper panel is more complex than the one on the bottom panel.

Russia doesn't make anything, it is a gas station with nukes, Obama and McCain are lords of truth for Singular_Transform:

kvs wrote:

According to the troll the device in the upper panel is more complex than the one on the bottom panel.

Russia doesn't make anything, it is a gas station with nukes, Obama and McCain are lords of truth for Singular_Transform:

Relax, mate.

Hyperventillation won't helps : )

Examine a simple case, steam turbine connected to a synchronous generator with rigid connection.

In this case you make the generator, ballance it on a pad - time consuming process, you have to spin up the rotor closer and closer to the critical rpm( and every time attach weights to diferent positions ), and when the amplitud of the vibration will be small you just jump over it : )

You do the same with the turbine, and afterwards at the power plant you join the two and everything OK.


But, with gas turbine the whole thing become more complicated.

Im that case you have to design and TEST the generator + gearbox+ turbine together.

It means that if you make a thermal power plant then you can sell generator independently from the steam turbine, but with gas turbine the generator has to came from the same design team/ company.


Actualy that you can see on the picture is the rigging of the whole set for testing.


If during the test you have problem, like vibration then go back to the design table and change something, modify / manuafacture new, and test again.

Saturn is not simply producing a GT engine, they are producing complete propulsion packages.  Eg for the Pr 22350, each vessel will have 2x M55R CODAG packages, each comprising the following:

• M90FR gas turbine engine with transmission elements (593 million rubles ($9.6 million) per unit, delivery date - November or December 2017).

• RO55 gearbox, VSM37/M55R transmission (299 million rubles ($4.8 million) per unit, delivery date - December 2017)

• Metel-55 and Sheksna-90 control systems, VDA-56 vibration monitoring equipment (102 million rubles ($1.6 million) per unit, delivery date - July 2016)

• 10D49 diesel engine with the Purga control system (108 million rubles ($1.7 million) per unit, delivery date - September 2017)

Source  (source accredits TASS 2015 but provides no link).

[Background info - in case forum members are not aware, the 11356 will be a lower tech COGAG (combined gas and gas) propulsion, with 2 GTs of same design.  This was a standard arrangement on Soviet GT vessels (eg Slava, Krivak, Udaloy).  The 22350 will have the more advanced CODAG (combined diesel and gas) where the engines (particularly the diesels) needs to run at different rated speeds depending on the propulsion mode, eg diesel only (low speed), gas-only (cruising) and diesel & gas (full speed).  Gearboxes need more speed reduction modes, and the control systems are more complex. ]

If the Zorya and its subcontrators are capable of building a full CODAG propulsion package, I scoff at the idea that Saturn et al will not be able to do the same....

Russia will overcome dependence on Ukrainian gas turbine engines by mid-2018

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4365362

OEC has started testing of marine engines M90FR

As reported in the press release of United Engine-Building Corporation (part of Rostekh State Corporation), the company began testing the M90FR marine gas turbine engines, the production of which is being developed as part of the import substitution program to meet the needs of the Russian Navy.

At present, the JDC is working to establish a domestic marine gas turbine construction base at Rybinsk PJSC "ODK-Saturn". In April 2017, in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin, an assembly and testing complex of ship gas turbine units (SIC KGTA) was commissioned for trial operation, designed for carrying out complex tests of offshore GTE, gas turbine and diesel-gas turbine units in various configurations. The head of state launched the tests of the GTA M35R-1 with the M70FRU-2 engine on a test bed with a capacity of up to 15 MW.



http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2692802.html

United Engine-building Corporation(ODK) has announced that testing of NPO Saturn's M90FR & M70FRU gas turbine engines for


- Pr.22350 (Adm Gorshkov class) and Pr.11356 (Adm Grigorivitch class) frigates
- & gas turbine Agregat DKVP for Pr.12322 Zubr LCAC


is complete & series production is to start in 2018.



https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/948617617329270784
http://flotprom.ru/2017/%C8%EC%EF%EE%F0%F2%EE%E7%E0%EC%E5%F9%E5%ED%E8%E530/

Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

I smell BS. Look at the outflow temperature in the chart between the Ukr engines and the NPO Saturn
engines: 440 vs 506 C and 430 vs 523 C. All heat engines have efficiency defined by the difference
between the internal temperature and the reservoir temperature. It is clear that the NPO Saturn engines
are operating at much higher temperatures (506/440 or 15% and 523/430 or 22%).

The article brings up this issue but only to fob off the Russian achievement. There is no reference provided
for the efficiency numbers listed in the chart. Based on the outflow temperature difference I do not find them
credible whatsoever. It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
to gain efficiency. So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

And Russia has the material science knowhow to accommodate higher turbine temperatures using custom
alloys and even composite materials for turbine blades. The PAK-FA production engine will have a lot of
such innovations. Banderastan is just cranking production of Soviet era engines.

PS. Putin is nothing like the clown Khruschev and his shoe stomping of the podium at the UN. If he boasts some numbers about
the NPO Saturn products, then they are not chest thumping BS. They are meant to remind Russia's "partners" that Russia is not
some mud hut banana republic that lacks the know how and capacity to manufacture new engine designs.

The outflow temperature I discuss in my previous post is not a direct measure of the internal turbine temperature since
there are other variables such as the cooling rate of the exhaust and engine geometry that affect it. But regardless of this,
it is quite certain that the NPO Saturn engines are operating at substantially higher internal temperatures than the
obsolete Ukr engines.

kvs wrote: It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
to gain efficiency.    So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

I'm no Engineer but I think efficiency is not only devined by inlet temperature. As you can see in that chart the russian gas turbine has a higher RPM than the Ukrainian one. This might play a role in it. But tbh I don't see any issue with this observation done by them. Development never stops and Russia will keep developing these gas turbines further as they are just starting their game in this field. Numbers will keep improving.

Good for them they should be producing their own stuff like this was a mistake to allow ukraine to do it in the first place.

No it was not a mistake to allow the Ukraine to make some money building things for the Russian military... Russia had things made during a period when they had no money to develop the capacity to build such things for themselves... if they didn't buy from the Ukraine they would have bought from Germany or China or somewhere similar.


The purpose of buying from the Ukraine was to keep the Ukrainians working and stable and friendly... the latter didn't work but it could be argued that the slide into anarchy we see today was delayed and would have been accelerated if it was Russia cutting ties in the 1990s rather than the Ukraine cutting ties in the last 5 years.

Russia had to try to keep the Ukraine friendly by offering them work, but also didn't really have the resources to spend on everything at once and replace all imported material at once. By buying from the Ukraine they have been able to spread out the cost of having to develop foreign technologies with domestic solutions... I am sure Saturn is in a better position now to develop naval propulsion systems than it was in the 1990s, and those production facilities now will be light years ahead of anything they could have produced back then too.

kvs wrote:

Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

I smell BS.   Look at the outflow temperature in the chart between the Ukr engines and the NPO Saturn
engines: 440 vs 506 C and 430 vs 523 C.    All heat engines have efficiency defined by the difference
between the internal temperature and the reservoir temperature.   It is clear that the NPO Saturn engines
are operating at much higher temperatures (506/440 or 15% and 523/430 or 22%).  

The article brings up this issue but only to fob off the Russian achievement.   There is no reference provided
for the efficiency numbers listed in the chart.   Based on the outflow temperature difference I do not find them
credible whatsoever.    It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
to gain efficiency.    So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

And Russia has the material science knowhow to accommodate higher turbine temperatures using custom
alloys and even composite materials for turbine blades.    The PAK-FA production engine will have a lot of
such innovations.    Banderastan is just cranking production of Soviet era engines.

Carnot efficiency is best written as n = 1 - T(cold)/T(hot) where T(hot) is temperature at which heat is added (ie flame ignition temperature) and T(cold) is reject temperature (ie temp of exhaust gas at engine discharge).

Overall efficiency is maximised by making T(hot) as high as possible, and using the reject heat to preheat the combustion air and fuel gas (via external heat exchangers). It seems that the new Russian turbines are able to operate at higher internal temperatures, reflecting their more modern design and superior heat resistant materials.

Industrial and marine gas-turbine engines of PJSC "ODK-Saturn"



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3049996.html

Looks like Saturn are developing a power turbine  E70/8RD from the M70FRU-2, to be used for offshore/marine electrical generation.  This would be a logical development and pave the way for marine electrical propulsion.



BTW there is a very nice English-language pdf from Saturn that covers their range of aviation, power & marine turbines:

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/upload/editifr/2015/49_1_NPO_Saturn_-_expertise,_products,_services.pdf

Pg 38 has the details for the E70/8RD.

On the progress of work on the creation of ship turbines at the PJSC "ODK-Saturn"

As reported in the press release of Joint-stock company "United Engine Building Corporation", the work on the formation of the scientific and technical reserve needed to create the fifth generation of gas turbine engines (GTE) is being carried out by the Rybinsk PJSC "ODK-Saturn" (part of the United Engine Corporation of Rostec State Corporation ).

"Together with industry institutes, including the CIAM named after Baranov and the Krylov State Scientific Center, a number of research and development works have been carried out to shape the appearance of fifth generation marine gas turbine engines," says the Deputy General Director and Managing Director of PJSC "ODK- Saturn »Victor Polyakov. - Based on the results of these works, we performed preliminary design in the framework of research, developed the terms of reference and the corresponding proposals for the federal target program. "

The joint engine-building corporation on the basis of the DCC-Saturn is implementing a program to develop and develop the serial production of offshore GTE and gas turbine units (GTA).

In 2017, DCO-Saturn successfully completed the experimental design work (ROC) for the development and production of shipboard GTE: R& D "M70FRU-R" ("reverse"), OKR "Aggregate DKVP" and R&D "M90FR". The UDK-Saturn is ready for serial production of marine power units.

"Creating these marine gas turbine engines, we went along the path of unification, and also laid the possibility of developing the next generation of engines based on them," said Yury Shmotin, Deputy General Director and General Designer of JSC "UDK". - Advantage of the Russian offshore GTE in comparison with the Ukrainian, manufactured by the technologies of the 60-80-ies, is the increased reliability of the product, due to the provision of stringent requirements for the manufacture of the most critical parts. Particularly noteworthy is the low level of specific fuel consumption and increased overhaul life. At the same time, gas turbine engines of marine purpose ODC are universal and can be used on ships of different types. The existing line of engines is enough to cover the need for GTA for modern ship projects. "

Earlier, a unique assembly and testing complex of ship gas turbine units (SIC KGTA) with unique test benches with a capacity of up to 15-40 MW was created and put into operation at the JDC-Saturn. The SIC is a cluster that not only provides for the current requirements of the Russian Federation in the part of marine power units at the stage of import substitution, but will also allow testing of perspective GTEs and units. In this case, it is possible to carry out tests both of the entire power plant of the ship as a whole, and of its component parts. The complex is universal, and, with the necessary improvements, it makes it possible to carry out tests of gas turbine engines of industrial design with a unit capacity of up to 40 MW.

Within the framework of the implementation of the "marine" program, the UDK-Saturn facilities were equipped with the most modern technological equipment. This made it possible to introduce a series of new technological processes into production. In addition, the experience of using electronic geometric models of structural details of an engine with a complex spatial shape made it possible to significantly shorten the terms of technological preparation of production.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3107204.html

More information in regards the challenges with producing new engines.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3178312.html

So what I read from that is the low output of engines from "Star" plant and that their facility is rather inadequate for testing purposes. They hired a very large workforce due to the growing number of orders but that they still face issues with output. But that there is now other facilities in Russia that not only repair current engines, but that can make them too. But they are awaiting for documentations to be transferred(?). And then the company "Star" was being investigated so it may speed up process of transferring docs.

So all in all, major complaints were: Monopoly and inadequacy of facilities of said Monopoly.

Russian Navy to Get First Serial Home-Made Gas Turbines in 2019

Production of the first serial samples of marine gas turbine engines to be delivered in 2019 is already in progress in accordance with approved schedules, the ODK-Saturn's press service told Mil.Press Today.

"In 2017, research and development works were finished and, at the same time, the new business line was launched to produce shipborne powerplants", a company’s spokesman said.

Thus, first serial gas turbines for the Russian Navy’s ships will be delivered in 2019.

In December 2017, NPO Saturn (Rybinsk, Russia) successfully completed three R&D projects held since 2014 in relation to engines M90FR, Agregat-DKVP and M70FRU-R.

The new Russian-made engines will be mounted on the Project 22350 and Project 11356 frigates, Zubr small-size air cushion landing ship, and other ships and vessels operated by the Russian Navy.
According to Lev Novikov, head editor at Engine Technology magazine, the Saturn-designed gas turbine allegedly ready for batch production was demonstrated back in 2011, at the International Maritime Defense Show. Later on, in 2014 it was announced again that the Russian marine gas turbines were ready for mass production, but its setting up failed. So, such statements should be taken carefully and one should wait for realistic results, especially as the production scope is not disclosed yet.

http://mil.today/2018/Industry12/

Big_Gazza wrote:Russian Navy to Get First Serial Home-Made Gas Turbines in 2019

Production of the first serial samples of marine gas turbine engines to be delivered in 2019 is already in progress in accordance with approved schedules, the ODK-Saturn's press service told Mil.Press Today.

"In 2017, research and development works were finished and, at the same time, the new business line was launched to produce shipborne powerplants", a company’s spokesman said.

Thus, first serial gas turbines for the Russian Navy’s ships will be delivered in 2019.

In December 2017, NPO Saturn (Rybinsk, Russia) successfully completed three R&D projects held since 2014 in relation to engines M90FR, Agregat-DKVP and M70FRU-R.

The new Russian-made engines will be mounted on the Project 22350 and Project 11356 frigates, Zubr small-size air cushion landing ship, and other ships and vessels operated by the Russian Navy.
According to Lev Novikov, head editor at Engine Technology magazine, the Saturn-designed gas turbine allegedly ready for batch production was demonstrated back in 2011, at the International Maritime Defense Show. Later on, in 2014 it was announced again that the Russian marine gas turbines were ready for mass production, but its setting up failed. So, such statements should be taken carefully and one should wait for realistic results, especially as the production scope is not disclosed yet.

http://mil.today/2018/Industry12/

The information about 2011 cannot be fobbed off. It makes sense that work was done on domestic engines since Banderastan stank
of high risk after 1991 and especially after 2004 and the orange "revolution", which was completed in 2014. This would account for
why there was such a quick turn around time for getting new turbines to the production stage.

If people think that the current announcements are about vapourware, then they are clueless. The reason why the 2011 variants were
not put into production is likely a combination of performance and quality specifications and the Russian government playing nice with
"Ukraine". After 2014, the situation changed fundamentally.

Russia to Impose Export Control on Marine Gas Turbines

Exported Russian gas turbine engines are to be under control. This information was posted on the Federal Portal of Draft Legal Acts.

Gas turbines are mentioned in the project certificate "On amendments in the list of dual-purpose products and technologies that can be used for development of weapons and military hardware and are subject to export control".

The document deals with marine gas turbine engines, including industrial or aircraft ones meant for ship powerplants or electric generators.

In particular, the turbines operation must conform to standards of ISO 3977-2:1977 or its national equivalent. The draft law was already approved, though the relevant presidential decree No. 1661 dated December 11, 2011 has not been updated yet.

According to an informed insider at ODK-Saturn that produces marine gas turbines, the working construction documents for gas turbines M70FRU-2 and M70FRU-R were classified as "O1". As for him, this allows the company to kick off batch production.

In October 2018, Mil.Press Today reported that Russian gas turbine engines still could not be called fully mass produced.

For reference

It is planned to mount Russian gas turbines on Project 22350 and Project 22350M frigates, Project 20386 corvettes (M90FR), Project 1164 guided missile cruisers, Project 1155 large ASW ships, Project 11356 patrol ships, Project 22800 corvettes, Project 1241 guided missile boats (M70FRU-R), and Project 12322 Zubr-class and Project 12061 Murena-class air cushion landing ships (M70FRU-2).

Dmitry Zhavoronkov

http://mil.today/2018/Navy23/

Sounds like a normal bit of admin cleanup since Russia didn't previously have production marine gas turbines -> not on the list.

Diesel engine production update:
https://vpk-news.ru/articles/45965?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

The first Russian marine gas turbine engines will be received by Project 12061 Murena air cushion landing craft

GTD M70FRU-2 is a gas turbine engine with power take-off from the side of the air intake unit. Power - 7350 kW (10 000 hp). The service life before the overhaul is 8 years, the resource before the overhaul is 3000 hours, the assigned resource is 8000 hours, the assigned service life is 25 years.



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3496635.html