Domestic production of marine engines for Russian Navy

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I thought that the M90 were a relatively new development from the 2000s (joint development from Zorya and Saturn).

Anyway they are good enough for the moment.

After all the GE LM2500 used in a lot of western navy ships is a marine derivative of the CF6 aircraft engine, which first ran in 1971. Of course it was modernised many times, but the original design is from an engine 50 years old.

If Russia will need more modern naval engines in the future, they will be able to do a naval derivative of the many new aircraft engines they are developing now, e.g the PD series or the modernised NK32

The Russian replacements for the Ukr production are by no means mere copies. They have higher operating temperatures and thus
thermodynamic efficiency. Some BS article posted on this forum claimed they were of similar efficiency. But this article is not
the Holy Bible of God's Own Truth (TM).

Funny how all of these discussions never cover actual efficiency numbers but fixate on feature gimmicks.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Almost all naval gas turbine are aero derivative. Also because it is extremely expensive to design and develop a brand new engine,  especially if for a small number of engine that will be produced.

Probably you meant the Rolls-Royce WR21, which has an intercooler and arecuperator (designed snd made by Northrop Grumman ).

It is still  considered an aero derivative engine, anyway, as many parts are derived from those in the RB211 or trent aero engine. Anyway, it is used only in the type 45 destroyers,  apparently it was not as good as advertised or too complex and costly (and apparently also subject to some issues) as subsequent british ships use instead the MT30  (that has no recuperator), a direct naval derivative of the trent 800 (boeing 777 engine).

And it is not true that most of the gain is made by the fan. The vast majority of the thrust comes from the fan, but without an highly efficient hot section the engine performance would be compromised.

What I mean is that since a lot of work  has been done (and a lot of money spent) to create a new serie of efficient aero engines, a new naval gas turbine could be created from them with a reduced effort. Of course later if needed they could be also improved adding recuperator or similar, but it would be wise to use the core of one of the modern aero engine as a starting point. (NK32 or even better the PD35 after it is ready)

Most of the gains in planes are from higher bypass ratios, the rest are from higher compression ratios mostly. Higher compression ratios can be obtained by tweaking the stages of each compressor. GE did this by adding stages to the compressor and P&W did this by spinning the compressor faster while using a geabox to lower fan speed.
The critical issue is the turbine intake temp and cooling of turbine blades. Most of the issues with the Type 45 are to do with the integrated electrical system. The intercoolers did have some teething issues but are not a complex tech in themselves. Nothing in the recuperator system is particularly high tech.

From today's "Military Acceptance", the gearboxes gas turbines for the Golovko:






https://twitter.com/ilax200/status/1350730386083635200
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sit_TvWTL0&t=951s

The ukranazis are really good at fucking up their economy. How can they be so stupid to believe west will save them

UEC is considering projects of two marine engines with a capacity of up to 35 thousand horsepower

General Director of the corporation Alexander Artyukhov said that the first engine from this marine line was installed on the frigate "Admiral Golovko" in December 2020

MOSCOW, January 17. / TASS /. The United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of Rostec) is considering two experimental design projects for the creation of marine engines with a capacity of up to 35 thousand horsepower. This was announced by the general director of the UEC, Alexander Artyukhov.

“Today we have three target niches in terms of horsepower: from 6,000 to 27,000. Additionally, two ROC projects up to 35,000 horsepower are being discussed,” Artyukhov said in an interview with the Military Acceptance program on the Zvezda TV channel .

According to the head of the UEC, the first engine from this naval line was installed on the frigate Admiral Golovko in December 2020.

To avoid dependence on Ukrainian supplies, the Main Command of the Russian Navy in the early 2000s approved the "Concept for the Creation and Application of Gas Turbine Engines and Assemblies for Navy Surface Ships" and entrusted the functions of an integrated supplier to the Rybinsk NPO Saturn. Modern combat ships of the Russian Navy, in particular frigates of projects 22350 and 11356, were previously equipped with power plants of the Nikolaev Zorya - Mashproekt.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10478799

22350M??

UEC has started creating a digital twin of a new generation marine gas turbine engine

United Engine Corporation is starting to create a digital twin of a new generation gas turbine engine for ships with a displacement of up to 12 thousand tons. This is stated in the message of "Rostec".

The development will allow you to manage the life cycle and increase the reliability of the power plant

- stated in Rostec.

As explained, a digital twin is a mathematical model that contains complete product data. With the help of this development, it is possible to carry out various tests at all stages of the creation and life cycle of the engine, which significantly reduces the time and cost of designing, creating prototypes, testing and fine-tuning the power plant.

Digitalization reduces the time and cost of designing power plants, including a line of new generation marine gas turbine engines (...) the digital twin will allow us to offer customers (...) a full life cycle contract, which implies the supply and maintenance of the engine at all stages of operation

- said in the UEC.

The work on the double is carried out by the Rybinsk enterprise "ODK-Saturn" together with the Peter the Great St. Petersburg Polytechnic University, Skoltech and CIAM. It is planned to develop mathematical models of GTE units and a gearbox for a basic marine engine with a capacity of 20,2 MW, a promising marine engine with a capacity of 25 MW and a gearbox PO55. Completion of the work is scheduled for 2023.

https://en.topwar.ru/179908-odk-pristupila-k-sozdaniju-cifrovogo-dvojnika-morskogo-gazoturbinnogo-dvigatelja-novogo-pokolenija.html

More news that keep sounding as work ongoing for the 22350M...

Is there any info if the karakurts have finally recieved their zvezda M507 powerplants?

The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract with the St. Petersburg "Zvezda" for the supply of marine diesel engines

The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract with the St. Petersburg plant "Zvezda" for the supply of marine diesel engines. As reported by "Delovoy Peterburg" , the military has already filed a corresponding claim to the Arbitration Court.

According to the newspaper, the lawsuit contains a requirement to terminate the 2016 contract for the supply of marine diesel engines by the enterprise. In addition, the Ministry of Defense intends to recover from Zvezda a total of 223.7 million rubles, the first session of the Arbitration Court on this claim is scheduled for June 7.

As follows from the lawsuit, the Ministry of Defense is not satisfied with the pace of deliveries of marine diesel engines for Russian ships under construction. In particular, diesels produced by Zvezda are being installed on Project 22800 Karakurt RTOs, and delays in their delivery have already led to the fact that Shipyard Pella sued Zvezda for disrupting the delivery of RTOs to the customer, i. E. Ministry of Defense. In addition, Zvezda provides engines for the Alexandrite Project 12700 minesweepers.

In the event of the termination of the contract and the collection of funds, Zvezda, which is going through difficult times, may finally go bankrupt, despite the fact that "large-scale transformations" have been carried out at the enterprise over the past two years. At least, this is what Zvezda's press service says. If the contract is retained, the company promises to complete the program on time by 2022. It is emphasized that for the period 2018 - 2020, the backlog of the production schedule for marine diesel engines was halved.

On the other hand, there are not so many manufacturers of marine engines for warships in Russia. As the import substitution program, which began after 2014, has shown, it is not so easy to launch your own production if you always rely on imports.

How the trial will end, time will tell. Let's hope that despite all the litigation, the Russian fleet will receive ships on time.

https://covid36qdxuptbodqslievhsl4-ac4c6men2g7xr2a-topwar-ru.translate.goog/182891-minoborony-razryvaet-kontrakt-s-peterburgskoj-zvezdoj-na-postavku-sudovyh-dizelej.html

China might get some more orders for diesel engines then.

Or the company will be nationalized and put to work properly...

Russia should just pick few key people from Zoya mash in ukraine and hire them if they pay them more they will accept...ukraine is almost bankrupt anyway

I think the lawsuit will just lead to more delays.

It seems to me this is just a technique the government is using to push the corporation into bankruptcy so it can be nationalized. Which is probably for the best long term. But why not just expand capacity at existing government facilities or develop new engines instead of getting this old company?

Clearly not enough attention was given to military diesel engines in Russia. With efforts being mostly haphazard.
It took long enough for the gas turbine engines to get a credible roadmap but the same has not been done for diesels. It is not enough to maintain production of existing engine designs and use them in ships. New and improved designs need to be made and put into production. They should use modern automated production with digital designs instead of artisanal methods.

We can blame the private contractors all we want, but without large enough government batch orders, or low rate loans, it is hard to expect them to ramp up production rate.
From their point of view investing in increasing capacity is a risky investment and this lawsuit only proves that.

The government should have just switched to a different supplier for future ships without disturbing their existing production.

https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/09/05/yakovlev-m-501-and-zvezda-m503-and-m504-diesel-engines/
This is supposed to be the engine in question. Why not just replace this with a gas turbine? It seems monstrously complicated.

An helicopter engine should have about the same power level.

lancelot wrote:
This is supposed to be the engine in question. Why not just replace this with a gas turbine? It seems monstrously complicated.

An helicopter engine should have about the same power level.

Turbines are very inefficient at part throttle where ships mostly operate, so you will need a cruise turbine and a sprint turbine geared and sized appropriately, or some sort of turbine/electric set up.

franco wrote:The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract with the St. Petersburg "Zvezda" for the supply of marine diesel engines

On the other hand, there are not so many manufacturers of marine engines for warships in Russia. As the import substitution program, which began after 2014, has shown, it is not so easy to launch your own production if you always rely on imports.
.....
https://covid36qdxuptbodqslievhsl4-ac4c6men2g7xr2a-topwar-ru.translate.goog/182891-minoborony-razryvaet-kontrakt-s-peterburgskoj-zvezdoj-na-postavku-sudovyh-dizelej.html

Amount of wisdom coming out of Russia is off the charts

PapaDragon wrote:

franco wrote:The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract with the St. Petersburg "Zvezda" for the supply of marine diesel engines

On the other hand, there are not so many manufacturers of marine engines for warships in Russia. As the import substitution program, which began after 2014, has shown, it is not so easy to launch your own production if you always rely on imports.
.....
https://covid36qdxuptbodqslievhsl4-ac4c6men2g7xr2a-topwar-ru.translate.goog/182891-minoborony-razryvaet-kontrakt-s-peterburgskoj-zvezdoj-na-postavku-sudovyh-dizelej.html

Amount of wisdom coming out of Russia is off the charts  

This seems like a pretty serious issue, they cant just shut down the only marine engine manufacturer in Russia, and why is Putin not intervening?

PhSt wrote:This seems like a pretty serious issue, they cant just shut down the only marine engine manufacturer in Russia, and why is Putin not intervening?

Zvezda isn't the "only" marine engine manufacturer. Just for this particular class of ship of high RPM engines.
Kolomna diesel manufactures the large cruise speed diesels in the larger corvettes and frigates for example.
Both Kolomna and Zvezda are commercial companies and had difficulties ramping up production to suit the government's needs.

Zvezda manufactured engines for legacy customers at drip feed and Kolomna manufactured diesels for diesel locomotives.

These companies clearly promised more than they could deliver. But at least in the case of Zvezda given their limited client base and the complexity of the engine proper it isn't surprising there are delays. I mean just look at it. Each "engine" is a coupled pair of huge radial engines with 42 cylinders each. There is a reason people don't manufacture radials anymore. The Kolomna diesels have more power but much simpler at only 16 cylinders. Problem is it has half the RPM.

Do you even need to manufacture radial engines in the XXIst century? It seems bonkers to me.
M53 engine design is based on 1950s engine design technology.
This seems like such a marginal business I do not see what is the point in expanding it.

PS: It seems they actually use the Zvezda M520 which actually has 56 cylinders per engine. Yikes.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well if it is a private company the state should  not directly help them on top of giving them good contracts, unless they could get something more in return. Unfortunately due to lack of orders for many years, the company was left with very little to do and very little money, and so the equipment was never improved and they started also losing capabilities...

If they are nationalised, maybe it will not be a bad thing.

I still believe that Russia needs some central planning and organisation for diesel engines, for naval propulsion (medium speed, high speed and slow speed diesel), for automotive and possibly also for other applications.

They need new projects as well, possibly non dependent from foreign suppliers, and they need to be able to produce all the parts and to organise assembly in more than one place. Ideally the same factories that in the short term will be focusing on the needs  of the navy, later they will need also to be able to supply engines for civilian orders (even if they are quite different products). This is the only way the naval (diesel) engine industry could survive in Russia. Of course it needs quite a bit of investment and they should aim to minimise import of foreign engines also for civilian use, as soon as they have domestic alternatives ready.

I think they were thinking of creating something like that, I think I read something about a center for gearboxes based on Zvezda.

PapaDragon wrote:

franco wrote:The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract with the St. Petersburg "Zvezda" for the supply of marine diesel engines

On the other hand, there are not so many manufacturers of marine engines for warships in Russia. As the import substitution program, which began after 2014, has shown, it is not so easy to launch your own production if you always rely on imports.
.....
https://covid36qdxuptbodqslievhsl4-ac4c6men2g7xr2a-topwar-ru.translate.goog/182891-minoborony-razryvaet-kontrakt-s-peterburgskoj-zvezdoj-na-postavku-sudovyh-dizelej.html

Amount of wisdom coming out of Russia is off the charts  

What would you expect the russian nay to do when their supplier is basically useless?

BTW is there any way russia could smuggle western diesel engines for the karakurt through india or china? They're quite small so they shouldnt be that hard to conceal. Also its such BS that basically every single company that produces marine diesels outside of zvezda and kolomna are from US bootlicker countries.

Yeah the gearboxes might be more of a problem than the engines the article talks about. Zvezda also produces the reducing gear for the frigates.

As for this engine, I do not see what is the point of using a radial engine when they could use the Kolomna for cruise speed, then add a gas turbine like the M70FRU2 being produced for the Zubr for high speed.

limb wrote:...BTW is there any way russia could smuggle western diesel engines for the karakurt through india or china? They're quite small so they shouldnt be that hard to conceal. Also its such BS that basically every single company that produces marine diesels outside of zvezda and kolomna are from US bootlicker countries.

Or, here is a crazy idea: How about they built the fu¢king things themselves?

Those are diesel engines not particle accelerators (which Russia happens to build as well)

Does the West even produce high RPM diesels like this?

For example this ship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_mine_countermeasures_vessel

It used to use the Napier Deltic engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic

Now it uses a V12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_C32

Sure it is much too smaller than the Zvezda engine but you get the idea. You can make a 2200 rpm marine engine without it being a radial.
The tendency worldwide has been to make large bore engines with less cylinders to increase fuel efficiency anyway.