Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
TR1 wrote:I wonder what the point is.
There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.
How is a missile which has same range, same speed and 2-3 times smaller warhead for 2-3 times more missiles per aircraft not worth it?
I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.
I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.
Kh-31 is a decades old design that has been upgraded and re-upgraded. It can not be upgraded much more. While the Brahmos is new and has much more future potential. I bet the smaller missile, if it indeed is produced, will have a superior range compared to Kh-31 and be just as fast.
GarryB wrote:
The new model Kh-31 anti ship version has a range of 250km in its export model... to scale down the Brahmos they would need to take out fuel and warhead and make a smaller seeker.... and basically make a Kh-31.
The Brahmos will most certainly not be achieving 300km range if it is flying low for the entire flight path.eridan wrote:Ballistic range is irrelevant here. Missiles for s300 complex were tested in late 80s going over 300 km in pure ballistic profiles. Aim-54 could reach 300 km in a ballistic profile when properly launched but that is an useless figure.
Those same pages give actual, more useful ranges in practice, up to 160 km for actual antishipping range of actual antishipping variant. Why cling on a figure taken as theoretical maximum of an airframe? It is there black on white, why pick a different set of figures on purpose, figures that are not meant to be interpreted as practical range values?
It is much more useful to have a missile that will stay below the radar horizon for the whole 300 km of its flight range than one that will have to be fired at 15 km altitude, at mach 1,5, then go into a climb and painfully glide to squeeze out all energy to reach 250 km, leaving no energy for course correction (which may not even be efficient if missile is fyling too high) no energy for end manouvers and overall little chance of doing its mission since it was flying over the radar horizon, in a straight and steady trajectory, and took some 5-6 minutes to do it all, exposing itself to the target and possible interceptors.
A 1200-1500 kg brahmos-lite stands much better chances of actually completing its mission, and doing it from somewhat longer range.
eridan wrote:Ballistic range is irrelevant here. Missiles for s300 complex were tested in late 80s going over 300 km in pure ballistic profiles. Aim-54 could reach 300 km in a ballistic profile when properly launched but that is an useless figure.
TR1 wrote:
Why would the AS variant not be able to do 250km, when the anti-radiation variant can do that much vs smaller targets?
Mind you these are all export range figures. Would not be shocked in the least that the Russian anti-ship variant can hit past 250km assuming a favorable launch profile.
Ballistic range is irrelevant here. Missiles for s300 complex were tested in late 80s going over 300 km in pure ballistic profiles. Aim-54 could reach 300 km in a ballistic profile when properly launched but that is an useless figure.
Those same pages give actual, more useful ranges in practice, up to 160 km for actual antishipping range of actual antishipping variant.
It is much more useful to have a missile that will stay below the radar horizon for the whole 300 km of its flight range than one that will have to be fired at 15 km altitude, at mach 1,5, then go into a climb and painfully glide to squeeze out all energy to reach 250 km, leaving no energy for course correction (which may not even be efficient if missile is fyling too high) no energy for end manouvers and overall little chance of doing its mission since it was flying over the radar horizon, in a straight and steady trajectory, and took some 5-6 minutes to do it all, exposing itself to the target and possible interceptors.
A 1200-1500 kg brahmos-lite stands much better chances of actually completing its mission, and doing it from somewhat longer range.
And it is wishful thinking that mig29/35 would carry more than 4 such missiles in any real world mission.
Because the Anti-Ship variant has to carry the radar which adds weight and occupies space. The AR version of the Kh-31 had always a greater range than the AS version.
Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.flamming_python wrote:OMG what are you guys even talking about?
Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade
Oh I see.TR1 wrote:Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.flamming_python wrote:OMG what are you guys even talking about?
Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade
Also there are none in the Black Sea
No only the first ship has Uran, the rest are all UKSK equipped, starting with first serial unit - Soobrazitelny.flamming_python wrote:Oh I see.TR1 wrote:Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.flamming_python wrote:OMG what are you guys even talking about?
Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade
Also there are none in the Black Sea
But wait - aren't all the Steregushchiy class vessels meant to be equipped with it? (Gremashchiys don't count)
But the Navys goals are standardisation and unification of weapons and systems and propulsion and sensors... so eventually even the vessels of the Black Sea will have Klubs and Onyxs or better... subs, and corvettes to carriers.Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.
Also there are none in the Black Sea
Ironically the Rif-M can be targetted against ground/surface targets, so while its 150kg warhead might be rather less than a Granit, at mach 6 it would be one of the faster missiles you could fire at targets up to 400km away.They are equipped with Uran and Redut SAM.
Lord, I am embarassed. long day...TheArmenian wrote:No. No UKSK on Soobraz, Boiky, SToiky. They are equipped with Uran and Redut SAM.
The updated ones, Gremyashy onwards will have the UKSKs plus the Redut SAM.
What's the point of doing that?flamming_python wrote:What would stop them from theoretically integrating the Uran into the UKSK launch cell too? It's shorter, lighter and narrower than the Klub and Onyx; so it shouldn't be a problem with a little modification.
Hachimoto good one..Onyx :
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