Project 949A: Oscar-II

A1RMAN wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

72 missiles salvo should deal with whole AC group...

AC group with zero AM capability?

With 72 supersonic missiles AC group can deal? Really?

I think it can. This is completely hypothetical because we don't know the real capabilities of their AM systems and actual missiles. But AC group can be pretty big - with a lot of planes and AA ships - and to sink, let's say 20 ships, is a huge task. With conventional warheads, of course.

Well you nerer wondered why Yasens can carry only 32 missiles max? number is puled from the thin air? They are designed as AC hunters, similar to 949 boats.

PapaDragon wrote:Thing is we have seen satellite pictures of Nakhimonov with Granit launchers already cut out and orders for UKSK launchers for it have been published a while back.

Thats correct. Russian navy desperately needs standardizing its launch tubes.Only then the speed of maufacuring of subs/ships can be increased.
I would also like to point out one thing in the yesterdays missile test. The Russian media is all famous for providing twisted unclear
reports. This kind of reporting is habitual so that western inteligence does not understand the true meaning of the tests.

See the words..

"The missile was launched on October 16 against a combined coastal target. The Granit cruise missile was fired from a surface position in high latitudes of the Barents Sea. For the first time ever the missile was used against a combination of targets deep inside the Severny (Northern) island of the Novaya Zemlya archipelago," he said.

1. The news itself is almost crypted in nature.
2. Combination of targets. Novaya zemlya has large mountain ranges. This is not a simple granit missile it is multi warhead missile. The speed may be slow but this was definitely a multi warhead missile.What version of granit has multiwarhead it is difficult to tell.But there are atleast 3 different versions. This is the same launcher as in Kuz AC group which is dispatched to Syria.

3. It hit a group of targets ..how many targets. Each warhead hit a separated target .Target spacing maybe 10 kms or even 100's of kms.
we need more definite reporting as to how come these missiles are becoming the standard set of russian weapons. pr 949 is very old project sub which is now getting these kind of missiles. Unless we have more definite information regarding some more tests we will not be able to conclude on this scenario.

Orel is back

http://www.vpk-news.ru/news/32770

Russia’s Oscar-II SSN K-150 Tomsk Received "Best in Fleet" Awards for Missile Drills & Combat Skills

The Russian Navy Pacific Fleet’s Project 949A (Oscar-II class) nuclear-powered attack submarine Tomsk has been recognized as the best Russian Navy submarine in a cruise missile live-firing exercise, Russian Eastern Military District spokesman for the Pacific Fleet Captain 2nd Rank Vladimir Matveyev told TASS.


In 2016, the Pacific Fleet’s nuclear-powered attack submarine Tomsk has been ranked first and has shown the best results among the multipurpose submarines during an exercise designed to destroy a simulated enemy’s ships and launch cruise missiles against sea targets," Matveyev said.

Also, the nuclear-powered submarine Tomsk has been awarded the challenge cup by the Pacific Fleet’s commander for the victory in the fleet championship and the challenge cup by the Pacific Fleet Submariner Union for high combat skills.

Copyright 2016 TASS. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Comments by Navy Recognition
The Project 949A nuclear-powered submarines have a length of 155 meters, a displacement of 24,000 tons, a depth of submersion of 600 meters and an underwater speed of 32 knots. Its crew totals 107. The Project 949A nuclear-powered submarine are armed with six torpedo tubes and 24 launchers to fire Granit cruise missiles with a range of about 500 kilometers (311 miles).

K-150 Tomsk's keel was laid in August 1991 and its was launched in July 1996. It was overhauled and modernized from 2010 until 2014.

Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/december-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4697-russia-s-oscar-ii-ssn-k-150-tomsk-received-best-in-fleet-awards-for-missile-drills-combat-skills.html

Russia’s Antey nuclear submarines to be rearmed with Kalibr missile systems

Project 949A Antey nuclear-powered submarines will be rearmed with Kalibr missile systems after a profound upgrade

BOLSHOI KAMEN /Primorye/, March 7. /TASS/. Project 949A Antey nuclear-powered submarines will be rearmed with Kalibr missile systems after a profound upgrade at the Zvezda shipyard in the Russian Far East, Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Tuesday.

"The Zvezda shipyard is carrying out profound modernization of Project 949A nuclear submarines, including the replacement of armament with the Kalibr missile complex and also the replacement of navigation, life support and other systems," Borisov said.

Overall, Russia has built 11 Project 949A Antey submarines. Eight of them have remained operational with the Russian Navy. Each submarine has a displacement of 24,000 tonnes and is armed with 24 Granit cruise missile launchers and six torpedo tubes.

CEO of Russia’s Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering Igor Vilnit told TASS that all the submarines of this type operational with the Navy would undergo upgrade.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/934400

They will apparently be able to install 3 Kalibar SSM/ShSM missiles in each of the 24 Granit ShSM missile launcher tubes for a total of 72 Kalibar missiles.

My question is: Is this happening now with the current subs under repair or it is a future program?

George1 wrote:My question is: Is this happening now with the current subs under repair or it is a future program?

The Orel has recently returned to service after modernization in Zvezdochka.

Here is the current status of this class:

A total of 8 are in service.

6 boats are active (including the Orel). They are still using the GRANIT missiles. No KALIBR or ONYX.

2 boats (Chelyabinsk and Irkutsk) are being modernized in Zvezda (in the far east). These 2 will be upgraded to launch KALIBR/ONYX.

Oh, I forgot to mention about the Belgorod which was never completed.

BREAKING NEWS:

The Belgorod will be completed in 2018.
Rumors that it is 11m longer than the others.

http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_predpr/90432-sevmash-peredast-apl-belgorod-vmf-rossii-na.html

http://izvestia.ru/news/688769

TheArmenian wrote:Oh, I forgot to mention about the Belgorod which was never completed.

BREAKING NEWS:

The Belgorod will be completed in 2018.
Rumors that it is 11m longer than the others.

http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_predpr/90432-sevmash-peredast-apl-belgorod-vmf-rossii-na.html

http://izvestia.ru/news/688769

it will be a reasearch-special purpose submarine, it will not carry any missiles

Interesting... I wonder what sort of unmanned underwater vessels it will carry...

The Granit missiles were between the inner hull and outer hull so removing the missile tubes will create no extra space inside the sub unless they expand that...

The space between the inner hull and outer hull is several metres which would be plenty of space for all sorts of new equipment...

GarryB wrote:Interesting... I wonder what sort of unmanned underwater vessels it will carry...

The Granit missiles were between the inner hull and outer hull so removing the missile tubes will create no extra space inside the sub unless they expand that...

The space between the inner hull and outer hull is several metres which would be plenty of space for all sorts of new equipment...

I think Belgorod will carry Status-6.

I occasionally get reminded how freakin massive these things really are below water line  

GarryB wrote:I agree with the propulsion upgrade as being more important... they certainly did a great job of upgrading the propulsion on the ex-Gorshkov carrier...

Regarding the Granit by eliminating a whole family of missiles from the inventory they save a lot of money... remaining Granits can be used for air defence testing... on land and at sea...

Could the Granits removed from Kuznetsov and Peter the Great (when she goes in for refit) be modified for use with the base model Antei Pr.949s (as it seems that they will not all be updated to carry Oniks/Kalibre/Zircon)?  The 949s use the submarine launched version, but it might be feasible to convert both the recovered units and the spares inventory.

Big_Gazza wrote:

GarryB wrote:I agree with the propulsion upgrade as being more important... they certainly did a great job of upgrading the propulsion on the ex-Gorshkov carrier...

Regarding the Granit by eliminating a whole family of missiles from the inventory they save a lot of money... remaining Granits can be used for air defence testing... on land and at sea...

Could the Granits removed from Kuznetsov and Peter the Great (when she goes in for refit) be modified for use with the base model Antei Pr.949s (as it seems that they will not all be updated to carry Oniks/Kalibre/Zircon)?  The 949s use the submarine launched version, but it might be feasible to convert both the recovered units and the spares inventory.

They are planning a new SSGN to replace them. Minor upgraded can be done but it doubtfull they will upgrade them totally with oniks. Maybe they don't need modification as the missile was produced specially for OscarII and they probably have at least 3 reload for each subs already.

Isos wrote:.......
They are planning a new SSGN to replace them. Minor upgraded can be done but it doubtfull they will upgrade them totally with oniks. Maybe they don't need modification as the missile was produced specially for OscarII and they probably have at least 3 reload for each subs already.

They are working on new subs but they will not be replacing Anteis any time soon, they are too useful.

Also they went on record that upgraded ones will be getting increase in missile load from 24 to 72 so that clearly means 3 Onyx missiles per tube.

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:.......
They are planning a new SSGN to replace them. Minor upgraded can be done but it doubtfull they will upgrade them totally with oniks. Maybe they don't need modification as the missile was produced specially for OscarII and they probably have at least 3 reload for each subs already.

They are working on new subs but they will not be replacing Anteis any time soon, they are too useful.

Also they went on record that upgraded ones will be getting increase in missile load from 24 to 72 so that clearly means 3 Onyx missiles per tube.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this upgrade is for just some of them and they haven't signed the contract yet.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-next-two-submarine-projects-feature-some-very-exotic-15618

Not the best source but it can be a nice thing to have the same basis for new SSN and SSGN.

Isos wrote:............

Correct me if I'm wrong but this upgrade is for just some of them and they haven't signed the contract yet.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-next-two-submarine-projects-feature-some-very-exotic-15618

Not the best source but it can be a nice thing to have the same basis for new SSN and SSGN.

You are right. First one to be overhauled kept the Granits but next ones should be getting Onyx if MoD is to be believed. Also, those missiles can be replaced retroactively for already overhauled subs.

Point is that Granits are gradually on their way out but vessels that carry them are not. So weapon upgrades will be in order.


I was hoping that they will pack new SSBN on the same platform as those SSNs and SSGNs. Who knows, they just might...

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:............

Correct me if I'm wrong but this upgrade is for just some of them and they haven't signed the contract yet.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-next-two-submarine-projects-feature-some-very-exotic-15618

Not the best source but it can be a nice thing to have the same basis for new SSN and SSGN.

You are right. First one to be overhauled kept the Granits but next ones should be getting Onyx if MoD is to be believed. Also, those missiles can be replaced retroactively for already overhauled subs.

Point is that Granits are gradually on their way out but vessels that carry them are not. So weapon upgrades will be in order.


I was hoping that they will pack new SSBN on the same platform as those SSNs and SSGNs. Who knows, they just might...

Well There is nothing to support it still has the Grants and any real information I have seen said it has Onyx's that said even if it does have the P-700's it's just a matter of swapping the missiles out which they can do with a crane and only need a day.

To Isos

One is finished.

I commented on this prior they have two units undergoing the AM mod right now K-132, K-144.

One more is planned the contract has been signed which is the K-456.

Big_Gazza wrote:Could the Granits removed from Kuznetsov and Peter the Great (when she goes in for refit) be modified for use with the base model Antei Pr.949s (as it seems that they will not all be updated to carry Oniks/Kalibre/Zircon)?  The 949s use the submarine launched version, but it might be feasible to convert both the recovered units and the spares inventory.

Oscar I class subs are history as far as the RF Navy is concerned. If they're not scrapped, some could be offered for sale/lease w/o their missile compartment to comply with MCR agreements.
BTW, all 24 Granits were recovered from scrapped Kursk SSGN, so those could also be used on Adm.K.! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_(K-141)

Could the Granits removed from Kuznetsov and Peter the Great (when she goes in for refit) be modified for use with the base model Antei Pr.949s (as it seems that they will not all be updated to carry Oniks/Kalibre/Zircon)? The 949s use the submarine launched version, but it might be feasible to convert both the recovered units and the spares inventory.

Not sure.

the Soviets were actually rather practical... they had torpedo tube launched ballistic rockets that deliver torpedos to targets rapidly... I have seen at least one video showing such a system being fired from a ship from a torpedo launcher... so the weapon fired out of the tube on the side of the ship straight into the water... a few seconds later the rocket blasted out of the water on a ballistic path to deliver the torpedo to the target area... in other words the sub launched version was exactly the same as the ship launched torpedo version... I would suspect the same with the Granit but cannot be certain.

Also they went on record that upgraded ones will be getting increase in missile load from 24 to 72 so that clearly means 3 Onyx missiles per tube.

It would make sense to upgrade all Russian vessels to the new weapons... but then while Granit launchers are in service then the remaining missiles remain useful operationally.

Of course once all the launchers are out of service they become useful targets for naval air defence systems...

Tsavo Lion wrote:Oscar I class subs are history as far as the RF Navy is concerned. If they're not scrapped, some could be offered for sale/lease w/o their missile compartment to comply with MCR agreements.

There were only 2x Pr 949/Oscar I built, and both have been scrapped. The current fleet of 949A are all Oscar II. These subs are extremely capable ship-killers and there is ZERO chance they are going to be sold or leased, let alone scrapped before their time...

Big_Gazza wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:Oscar I class subs are history as far as the RF Navy is concerned. If they're not scrapped, some could be offered for sale/lease w/o their missile compartment to comply with MCR agreements.

There were only 2x Pr 949/Oscar I built, and both have been scrapped. The current fleet of 949A are all Oscar II.  These subs are extremely capable ship-killers and there is ZERO chance they are going to be sold or leased, let alone scrapped before their time...

The main problem of these subs is that they were designed for cold war and for soviet navy.

A yassen class can today replace Akula and Oscar subs. Instead of 1 Oscar +1 Akula which have different roles you can have 2 yassen equiped with VLS that can do any mission of both Oscar and akula.

Husky class is suposed to be cheaper and smaller, not sure if it will have VLS, maybe just 12 for anti shiping role.

But I agree with you they won't stop using them any time soon. In 1999 they send it undetected in the adriatic to follow US carrier, undetected !!

Isos wrote:A yassen class can today replace Akula and Oscar subs. Instead of 1 Oscar +1 Akula which have different roles you can have 2 yassen equiped with VLS that can do any mission of both  Oscar and akula.

A Yasen carries < half the AShMs that a modernised 949AM can, and Yasens are mega-buck expensive (as they are 21st century Virginia/Seawolf equivalents). Yasens are to be primarily used to hunt and kill Murican SSNs and defend SSBN bastions, and interdicting CBGs is a secondary role. A 949AM running silent around the Russian periphery with 72x ship killers is a mortal threat to any CBG, and frees up the advanced Yasens to perform more important tasks.

Its all about using the appropriate tool for the job.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Isos wrote:A yassen class can today replace Akula and Oscar subs. Instead of 1 Oscar +1 Akula which have different roles you can have 2 yassen equiped with VLS that can do any mission of both  Oscar and akula.

A Yasen carries < half the AShMs that a modernised 949AM can, and Yasens are mega-buck expensive (as they are 21st century Virginia/Seawolf equivalents). Yasens are to be primarily used to hunt and kill Murican SSNs and defend SSBN bastions, and interdicting CBGs is a secondary role. A 949AM running silent around the Russian periphery with 72x ship killers is a mortal threat to any CBG, and frees up the advanced Yasens to perform more important tasks.

Its all about using the appropriate tool for the job.

The Virgina is not in the same class as the seawolf or the yasen.