Project 949A: Oscar-II

That in theory, you will never know where a hostile attack submarine can be and again the Antei can be easily tracked, these are large underwater buses.

So in a combat scenario where there is a decay enemy navy it will require protection from other vessels. Even when they were first built.

That in theory, you will never know where a hostile attack submarine can be and again the Antei can be easily tracked, these are large underwater buses.

The Oscars were not super silent, but they were easily quiet enough for their role.

Bigger does not mean noisier... in fact the size of the Oscars meant lots of sound reducing material could be fitted in the enormous gap between its inner and outer hull (which also had the Granit tubes).

They weren't bad, otherwise there would be no value in upgrading them... but Yasens are much better in most regards except raw missile numbers.

First you discribe a undersurface barge and then a cruiser...

Not a general cruiser... if it has its own AESA radars on a large tower then it can semi surface and you could add SAM related vertical launch tubes and it could provide area defence too.

Large side mounted sonar arrays and some vertical launch Pakets for anti torpedo use... in fact you could build anti torpedo berms into the sides of the vessel to make it torpedo proof...

Borei, without all the expensive stuff that makes it a great SSBN, can do the work. It could carry 16×8 missiles, have torpedoes to defend itsekf but also a wonderfull stealth. Once it launches its missiles at ground targets it can even do the job of SSN or track carriers with remaining missiles in the torpedo tubes or in the VLS.

A Borei with all the expensive stuff is more useful as an SSBN...

The reason they are upgrading them is simply budget-related, it's cheaper to do this then build a whole new class from scratch.

In Russia mind the idea is very simple. "We don't need the ships to be stealthy that much long as they can fire the missiles that's all that matters"

Antei's aren't quiet by today's standards. If the boat was to ever engage surface ships, it would have protection from other friendly vessels.

It wouldn't be out on its own in the middle of nowhere

Antei's aren't quiet by today's standards. If the boat was to ever engage surface ships, it would have protection from other friendly vessels.

Modern sonar in a sea that is not really calm is not greater than few tens of km. In very hard sea it's few km only.

They have 500+km range missiles. They are more quite than any other sub since they don't need to go as close as a SSN using only torpedoes.

It was supposed to launch its missiles togather with Slavas, Kirovs and Kuznetsov. So they would provide protection anyway.

But kirovs are retired or mod with UKSK, Slavas aren't going to stay for long and Oscar number is dropping so the Granit and Bazalt missiles are becoming useless as the salvo would be small and not a big deal for modern air defence systems.

The other advantage of Oscar is the 650mm torpedoes with 100km range. Modern torpedoes would even go at 150km.

The reason they are upgrading them is simply budget-related, it's cheaper to do this then build a whole new class from scratch.

If that were the case it is each cheaper and quicker to do nothing at all and just scrap them.

The fact is that except for an arsenal type vessel they don't need big subs with large batches of anti ship missiles any more... the modern missiles are multi purpose weapons for use against ships and land targets and there are anti sub missiles too.
Every ship in their navy is going to have a bundle of tubes available for use, and it is not like they are going to be invading countries at the rate the west does...

They now have container launchers for all the missiles used in the UKSK launcher and they have added the Redut system and the TOR missiles to the containerised systems that can be placed on the deck of any ship... connected to onboard power and used on practically any surface vessel.

It would not surprise me if they didn't just build a few flat top ships for cargo or as an arsenal ship as needed...

What they need to do is develop collapsable standard shipping containers so once they have launched their weapons they can be flattened and stowed... it would work best if you linked some together so one has missiles in it and can be flattened after being fired and the control module can launch the missiles from the next container...

If the boat was to ever engage surface ships, it would have protection from other friendly vessels.

And the 1,000km between them and the targets...

It wouldn't be out on its own in the middle of nowhere

I could be sent off to cover a flank...

But kirovs are retired or mod with UKSK, Slavas aren't going to stay for long and Oscar number is dropping so the Granit and Bazalt missiles are becoming useless as the salvo wouldn't be small and not a big deal for modern air defence systems.

Replaced with much larger numbers (on all of those platforms) of smaller faster longer ranged missiles... Zircon is over 1,000km range...

The Osars may be armed with the as well: https://112.ua/mnenie/rossiya-porazila-novym-oruzhiem-sposobnym-probivat-arkticheskiy-led-546864.html

Tsavo Lion wrote:The Osars may be armed with the as well: https://112.ua/mnenie/rossiya-porazila-novym-oruzhiem-sposobnym-probivat-arkticheskiy-led-546864.html

You are triple posting this shit

Yes, since it's related to other threads, & so more people see it. If u got a problem, complain to moderators - I don't need ur remarks on what I do. DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY.

Update on Oscar modernization & opinion which I share: 
https://vz.ru/society/2020/9/3/1058182.html

Maybe they found the 885M much more modern and quieter. And it is better to invest in 885M. There will be 9 885Ms and they will continue to build the next-generation Husky. Oscar II is submarine from the 1980s. It is better to invest in modern submarines. Russia will have multiple caliber launchers on frigates, corvettes, etc.

Yasen was already updated to Yasen-M. The specialist doesn't know his subject it seems.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Yeah, I rest my case. The most lethal SSN/SSGN in the ocean needs "modernisation"...  What a fucking idiot.  He's a comprador maggot with a hidden agenda.

Not only Yasen M. Also dangerous and there is the American Virginia, of which there are more submarine this class.[/quote]

Its possible that the modernisation project is being used to balance out the need to Kaliber missiles and now being "slow rolled" to add Tsirkon to the mix of weapons. So as the Kirov and other "flagship" and "new build" projects speed up, there are less Kaliber missiles to put into the older 949's. When the Gorshkov project was stalled and Yassens extremely slow rate then the Kalibers had to find a home. Now each 949 absorbs as many missiles as 10 corvettes and the Admiral N will need what? About 50-80? Maybe also the price of Husky class is looking very enticing? Very hard to know what is behind it. I don't think Russia feels there is much to be gained by pointing 100 Kalibers at the USA when they already have several thousand ICBM warheads pointed there.

There r conventional long range LACM & AShM versions of it; Oscars r too valuable to scrap any time soon.

Those launch tubes will be carrying a wide variety of missiles.... most of their corvettes likely will have anti sub and anti ship missiles as standard, with land attack missiles loaded for special occasions only.

While they are in Syria and there are problems in NK then ships in the Caspian and black sea fleets might have loaded up a few land attack missiles just in case, but most of the time they will be anti ship and anti sub oriented...

The plan from the beginning was to expand the number of launch platforms to make the weapons more potent by making them widespread and available... if that plan fails because they don't have enough missile production capacity I would think someone would be losing their job... this has been the plan for a rather long time...

They have a set production rate based on their needs for various Kalibers, so when major projects like Admiral N and just about all their Naval plans get delayed its useful to bring forward a project like the Oscar that can be relatively quickly modified and absorb a bunch of missiles.Also there are lots of different types of Kaliber and who knows what production issues may arise. I can see Russia needing 2-3000 of the various versions at least.

I would think the success in Syria would lead to production of the land attack Kalibrs being given a priority... the anti ship models could be produced and stored in significant numbers too, and Onyx will be around for a while yet as well...

Newer ships will further expand the options for what can be carried in such launchers including expanded capacity versions...

GarryB wrote:I would think the success in Syria would lead to production of the land attack Kalibrs being given a priority... the anti ship models could be produced and stored in significant numbers too, and Onyx will be around for a while yet as well...

Newer ships will further expand the options for what can be carried in such launchers including expanded capacity versions...

Syria was a demonstration, but the war was really won by SU-24/25 dropping dumb bombs with GEfest IMHO. They want to keep Kaliber in production at a substantial and steady rate, so they can upgrade and develop the weapon. To me that is about 150-200/year after ramp up.

The number of uksk isn't huge so the production don't need to be huge. Everytime they get a new plateform they can order a new batch.

Even the US have around 2500 tomahawks in stock with more than 150 launch plateforms.

Isos wrote:The number of uksk isn't huge so the production don't need to be huge. Everytime they get a new plateform they can order a new batch.

Even the US have around 2500 tomahawks in stock with more than 150 launch plateforms.

You get best pricing when you set up to produce a substantial and steady amount. Just ordering ad hoc is very expensive. Employees get laid off, they are not avail when you call them back, they lose expertise. etc. This is why their ship building is in such a mess.

mnztr wrote:

Isos wrote:The number of uksk isn't huge so the production don't need to be huge. Everytime they get a new plateform they can order a new batch.

Even the US have around 2500 tomahawks in stock with more than 150 launch plateforms.

You get best pricing when you set up to produce a substantial and steady amount. Just ordering ad hoc is very expensive. Employees get laid off, they are not avail when you call them back, they lose expertise. etc. This is why their ship building is in such a mess.

Missiles are made with tooling machines. You don't need experts for that. If course you will need some employees to always work on the production line and train new ones but that's not a big deal.

The figure you gave of 200 per year is not big. That's something like 2 or 3 per weak. 20 or 30 workers could do that pretty easily.

The big issue is price as they cost around million $ piece that's 200 million every year.

You have to keep in mind that the UKSK launch tubes can hold an enormous variety of different weapon types, so while they might produce quite a few of each type they will want reserves of weapons available in case they are needed,

Older missiles whose platforms that carried those launchers can be used up as training targets or even adhoc UAVs, but going from old models to new ones wont be hard and even when there are not a lot of new missiles available there are always older model missiles and cheaper versions that might have been made for export too.

I am sure they know what they are doing.