Project 949A: Oscar-II

I doubt that such a big sub with non-hydrodynamicaly & large conning tower won't generate undesirable noise when moving at 20+ knots.
They better have 2-3 escort SSNs/ASW ships & carry ISR UAVs for better situational awareness & targeting.

The double hull construction already makes it a very stealthy sub. The only time when they will be noisy is when they launch those Tsirkons

Big_Gazza wrote:So now you're a hydrodynamics expert who can evaluate the efficiency of a sail solely by visual appearence?  
The Pr.949 sail looks fine IHMO, and I'd find it hard to believe that a boat designed to covertly trail behind NATOstani CBGs would be equipped with a noisy sail... maybe the naval architects involved forgot to tank test the model with the sail attached?  

I'm no expert, but if they were noisier before modernization, what was done to reduce the noise, besides puting new screws? The rest of the sub looks the same.
Regardless, a large sub will create a noticable distrurbance on the surface that new detection methods can pick. Only Russian SSBNs r bigger, but they move slowly/drift while hiding at great depths, incl. under ice.

Even the Granit's a very "intelligent" missile!  

Still FAR superior than anything the west can muster.

Putin said something about arming some friendly countries. The Houthis would find them very useful

The scale of the Soviet experience in the area is unmatched by anyone, only because of scale and numbers here.

Because of all those facts the Americans had only two things to counter: our electronics are better and our subs are quieter. 

the Oscars r noisy compared to newer subs;

True, but at low speeds the are difficult enough to detect that you would need active sonar to find one... and no huge reason to operate at high speeds...

Hitting a moving CSG from that far will need help with up to date target designation by other ships/subs/UAVs/sats or MPA.

They can receive data on carrier groups via satellite, and land based targets would be stationary and in the targeting computers database when it sets off to sea.

the NATO intel will know they r on patrol since they'll not be that hard to detect.

They are not as quiet as the newest subs but that does not make them easy to detect. The noise reduction technology developed since it entered service will have been applied each time it has gone in for upgrades and overhauls...

I doubt that such a big sub with non-hydrodynamicaly & large conning tower

Why do you think its conning tower is not hydrodynamically designed?

won't generate undesirable noise when moving at 20+ knots.

What if it runs at 30 knots to the south atlantic and then starts operating at speeds you would need to get very close and stay very close to continue to follow for the next month. At quiet speeds it could easily make its way north and loiter unnoticed off the coast of the US of A,

They better have 2-3 escort SSNs/ASW ships & carry ISR UAVs for better situational awareness & targeting.

Operating with ships would make its presence obvious...

I'm no expert, but if they were noisier before modernization, what was done to reduce the noise, besides puting new screws? The rest of the sub looks the same.

I am no expert either but I rather suspect that sort of information is actually secret... but I would ask you, if noise was a problem on such a sub... why would they bother with an upgrade and new missiles if it was easy to find and deal with?

What is an issue with 99% of US based sources is the fact that every single one of those is spoiled by the fact that they are trying to push "murica better" agenda rather than verify.

But it must be better... all the proof you need is in how much America spends every year on defence and it is obvious... the US taxpayer is getting robbed blind.

Even the Granit's a very "intelligent" missile!

It is very much a naval Iskander... but is designed to operate in groups. It has onboard sensors to detect enemy air defence systems (radars etc) and incoming missiles and can deploy jammers and decoys and manouver to evade interception. Granit also has a titanium plate in its nose to protect it from thinks like 50 cal DU rounds... it is angled to deflect where possible, the standard DU subcalibre round from Phalanx. The frontal armour meant during tests with MiG-31s it often took two R-33s to bring down a Granit missile reliably.

Wonder how western air defences will go with a missile moving almost 5 times faster.

... what makes me wonder, what will Russkie do with hundreds of P-700 missiles they have in storage?
They surely have about 1000 pcs, as only the ships carried around 500 missiles on board.
Those would make formidable area denial batteries only if dismantled and put on shore.

I thought it would be a good weapon for hitting western Ukraine... along with any Vulkans and Moskits they might have lying around.

The Kuznetsov has probably lost its Granit launchers too... even replacing them with UKSK launch tubes which they might fit perhaps 24 tubes... would be useful to have Otvet missiles to engage nearby submarines with would be useful.

Maybe modify the Tu-22M3 to carry them three at a time perhaps...

Even if such a 3M22 is approaching the target, it must slow down so that its radar or optoelectronic/IR sensors can better image the target.

Does an SA-12 or SA-20 missile slow down to use its radar to examine an air target it is intercepting?

Not sure why you think they would need to slow down to use their sensors...

it must slow down so that its radar or optoelectronic/IR sensors can better image the target.

This is like claiming an F-15 has to slow down to subsonic speed so that the AIM-120 can be aimed better. 

True, but at low speeds the are difficult enough to detect that you would need active sonar to find one... and no huge reason to operate at high speeds...

not while following enemy ships' movements!

They can receive data on carrier groups via satellite, ..

raising comm antenna may be detected before it's lowered again- all of NATO+Japan has many MPA, UAVs & ASW helos to prosecute subs.

Why do you think its conning tower is not hydrodynamically designed?

even if it was, it's the biggest of all subs since the Typhoon SSBNs been retired, making more turbulence thx to increased H2O resistance. It's like the old Chinese coastal junks that had flat bottom & blunt nose sections for navigating in shallows but making them slow & harder to navigate in deep water. The Portugeese Lorcha was a hybrid ship with streamlined shape, Chinese style masts & rigging, giving it better seekeeping.

What if it runs at 30 knots to the south atlantic and then starts operating at speeds you would need to get very close and stay very close to continue to follow for the next month. At quiet speeds it could easily make its way north and loiter unnoticed off the coast of the US of A,

it's possible, but the UK has bases on its islands there & Swedes/Germans/Spanish/Italians/French can send their SSK/SSNs to track it 24/7. More efficient to use them as escorts or sentinels in the N. Atlantic/Pacific/Med.Sea to augment newer SSN/GN subs.

Operating with ships would make its presence obvious...

they could operate with CGNs & in the Arctic as multipurpose subs & occasionaly surface & make port calls to show they mean business- the USN SSG/BNs did the same not that long ago.

.. if noise was a problem on such a sub... why would they bother with an upgrade and new missiles if it was easy to find and deal with?

"not that hard to detect" isn't=easy. They may be harder to detect & still have utility, as u well know, the RuN still doesn't have enough large surface ships & SSNs to face threats & conduct blue water ops. The same excuse they have with other old ships they been storing/upgading for years while being busy with building NP icebreakers, Arctic OPVs, LHDs, & LNG tankers that take a lot of space in drydocks.

I thought it would be a good weapon for hitting western Ukraine... along with any Vulkans and Moskits they might have lying around.

or warehouses full of arms/production of drones.

Maybe modify the Tu-22M3 to carry them three at a time perhaps...

or they could cut off the missile section on retired Oscar & bring it to the Azov/Caspian Sea by rivers before launching them, if the entire sub is too big to sail it there.