Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

The-thing-next-door wrote:
Well the whole of finalnd is former Russian territory, so just neutron bomb them to the last and retake it.

Can you please stop making the rest of us look like genocidal maniacs?

Thanks

flamming_python wrote:
Can you please stop making the rest of us look like genocidal maniacs?

Thanks

It is not just me.

It does not matter that Finland used to be part of Russia, the terrain is not much different from plenty of land they already have and the people are clearly hostile, so the solution is not to attack, the solution is to appreciate that they are not neutral neighbours that Russia can trade and develop with, they are pro nazi pro american enemies... isn't the first time they worked with nazis to get what they wanted and clearly is not the last.

Russia just needs to realise that the border with Finland blocks an enemy now and that instead of trade and economics and culture, all Russia can expect is hostility and anger from that direction, so block it off and monitor it... and move sufficient nuclear weapons to suitable places to deal with it as quickly as possible.

The kinetic action the Russians promised was not an invasion, it was a change in defence posture towards Finland.

Finland was considered a neutral country, but now it is an enemy country so all trade will now be in rubles or not at all... which now they are under US control probably means none at all... which is fine.

Russia can just boost defences in that region and shift around a few military units to block any potential attack while nuclear strikes are prepared and launched at all HATO bases and other military bases in the country, but of course being an enemy state the threat from terrorism leaking into Russia after such an attack would make destruction of major population centres a good idea too... just to reduce future potential problems from that direction.

Can you please stop making the rest of us look like genocidal maniacs?

To be fair it is Finland joining an Anti Russia military group and also joining western sanctions intended to cripple the Russian economy and also no doubt sending weapons and ammo to kill Russian soldiers and civilians who used to be Ukrainian citizens...

To be fair it is Finland joining an Anti Russia military group and also joining western sanctions intended to cripple the Russian economy and also no doubt sending weapons and ammo to kill Russian soldiers and civilians who used to be Ukrainian citizens...

They've been part of Western sanctions from the start, and they've been sidekicks of NATO and the US for a while too.

Main thing that's changing is that US troops will be based there and quite possibly US missiles. You'd want Russian missiles pointing back at them but as for actually shooting - doing so can lead to a sticky situation for all concerned

The point is to make things clear to Finland that before joining HATO they were safe and nothing was pointed at them.

Now they are in HATO they will have a generous number of nukes pointed at them on a hair trigger because of their proximity to Russia and the risk that creates with any US forces on their territory.

Some might not care, but I would think a few wont be happy about that and might say something... but now they are Americas bitch and will do as they are told I guess.

Well exactly right, they will do as they are told. All of Europe will. New Zealand will too as I'm sure you know.

And when it comes to Europe at least - even if they aren't told, they'll still do it. As they're rather interested in remaining the richest countries in the world at the expense of others, hectoring others about their lack of democracy and respect for human rights, as a means of securing their own interests and various concessions. Or using their collective weight to dominate Africa, for example, that Borrell allegedly tried to warn Lavrov to stay away from.
And of course they were interested in securing cheap Russian resources too, and ideally having a little revolution in the country to bring a puppet into power such as Navalny to get those resources even cheaper, and exclusively compared to competitors. All the while supporting the nationalists and Nazis in the Ukraine too against Russia to prevent the later from becoming too powerful, and benefiting from the fire sale of resources and freshly unemployed itinerant labour that that regime would offer them too.

They didn't need America to order them to do that. That's just who they are, their elites are absolute scum. Thing is though, when it comes to Russia, they have no power here. They can send their tanks and muntions to the Ukraine; Russia will return the favour 100-fold at a later date. If they cross over the border, here or there, then that's a different matter. The best revenge is to make it clear that Russia's not open for business, and for them to get their gas, oil, timber, coal, rare metals, aluminium, grain and so on elsewhere. Russia has plenty of other customers. And to help build a new world economic and trade system that doesn't include them.

Updated view of the Finnish Defense Forces: size, equipment and capabilities:

FULL ARTICLE: https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/214280-sily-oborony-finljandii-chislennost-osnaschenie-i-vozmozhnosti.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

And there the pressure became to high even for Erdogan. Who knows maybe he gets his F-16s now.

ATO chief Jens Stoltenberg said on Monday that Turkey has agreed to back Sweden’s bid to join the military alliance.

The announcement comes on the eve of NATO’s summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, and represents a stunning about-face from Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who had earlier on Monday suggested Sweden could only join the alliance after his country is accepted into the European Union. Erdoğan has stood in the path of Sweden joining NATO for more than a year over a multitude of concerns.

“Glad to announce that after the meeting I hosted with @RTErdogan & @SwedishPM, President Erdogan has agreed to forward #Sweden’s accession protocol to the Grand National Assembly ASAP & ensure ratification. This is an historic step which makes all #NATO Allies stronger & safer,” Stoltenberg said in a tweet after a meeting in the Lithuanian capital of Vilnius.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/10/politics/turkey-sweden-nato/index.html

That is good news... Sweden joining wont make HATO stronger... once Sweden is in Turkey can't kick them out so they can go back to protecting and supporting Kurdish terrorists which is going to piss Turkey off.

And Sweden is hardly going to turn things around for HATO and make them a powerful efficient military force... it sounds like western governments that just go through the processes of being a military making sure they don't offend any gender or minority, ignoring the majority of course because they are the bigots who make the minorities minorities. If only the majority could be gay and unsure of their gender then everyone would be happy... because we would all be the same, which makes it easier to gang up on the rest of the world who are different.

Did anyone expect that Erdogan's little tantrum will end any other way?

He got named a good price and so he cashed out. The end.

Actually he gets points for audacity and shrewdness in my book. The rest of the NATO vegetables wouldn't dare.

They will just use joining NATO as an excuse to tear down the Swedish MIC at the same time as politicians get kickbacks from US and other European weapons manufacturers to buy weapons they neither need nor are fit for purpose. Same thing which happened with Canadian MIC and others.

Hahaha... yeah, they probably sold the idea of joining HATO by telling the Swedish MIC how much money they will make selling products to HATO countries, but once they are in then the MICs from other HATO countries will then be competitors and do everything they can to crush them... HATO has been sucking up to Ukraine for the better part of the last few decades but no HATO country ever decided they wanted Ukrainian engines in their aircraft or Antonov transport planes or even anything else the Ukraine made... does Sweden think it will be different with them?

According to the journalist, Biden said the IMF would provide Turkey with a "$11-13 billion line of credit" if Erdogan ratifies Sweden's NATO bid.

Does he have that in writing... the US was saying using sub munitions in Ukraine would be a war crime... till they started supplying them themselves... now it is no comment on the matter.

Equally, wasn't it the US that tried to get Erdogan removed from office... first in a coup and more recently in elections in Turkey... the IMF is not designed to help countries get out of debt, it is to create debt spirals that allow the rich countries buy and control countries with no future.

Hungary, the only nation that hasnt officialy said yes or no to Swedens membership, calls it "just a technicality". As soon as Turkey said yes the tone changed from the Hungarians it seems.

Both Hungary and Turkey are supose to vote about it in their parlaments after the summer.

https://omni.se/ungern-bara-teknikalitet-att-godkanna-sverige-nu/a/4oQP4o

Agreements with Russia breaking down... not that Finland will care, but another consequence of joining HATO.

Title says it all.

GarryB wrote:

Title says it all.

Agnes Hellström is the former president of "Svenska Freds", ~Swedish for peace.
She would be the most anti-Nato person in Sweden you could find.

She does have a few point though, like seeking for Nato membership should have been decided in a election by the people, not by the gouverment.

If she is a peace activist then of course she is anti HATO, and HATO hates her because HATO is all about funding for war machines, making war is its business.

Both Hungary and Turkey are supose to vote about it in their parlaments after the summer.

Good.

Never interrupt an enemy when they are making a mistake... for decades Russia has traded with Finland sending them cheap energy and cheap wood and Finland has pretended to be neutral, well now the masks are off and the anti Russian hatred is revealed for everyone to see... I think it is very good that Sweden is joining HATO... why not make it official... what I don't understand is why Finland and Sweden and Switzerland seem to want to pretend that they are still neutral.

They have picked their side so there is no need to pretend otherwise.

Russian trade used to be directed towards Europe, either to Europe or through Europe to the rest of the world and in that regard Europe got a lot of benefits, but Russia not so much... they undersold their energy for the price of stability and good relations with their neighbours... but that never really worked out... Europe never saw Russia as being allies... to steal a western derogatory term... the west saw Russia as useful idiots where they could buy cheap resources from them and produce goods that were competitive because of the low resources costs and then sell their products back to Russia for top dollar making good profits.

The US watched on upset that Europe wasn't buying their stuff instead... and they managed to drive a wedge between Europe and Russia and now Europe and the US are directly funding Kiev with the express purpose of killing Russians... soldiers and civilians.

No coming back from that.

Erdogan is looking after Turkey, which is what his job is, I have no problem with that... but to get Hungary to sign might need some colour revolution and CIA backwork... you know... the America way.

This is the group you are joining... keep having referendums until you get the result you want or next election cycle have a CIA funded revolution...

She does have a few point though, like seeking for Nato membership should have been decided in a election by the people, not by the gouverment.

Don't be silly... it is cheaper and easier to bribe and blackmail some politicians than to run an ad campaign to convince an entire population to commit economic suicide.

Referendums are only used when they are sure they will get the result they want.

They love to talk about democracy, but when it doesn't suit them they call it things like Popularism... Putin is a popularist leader because the majority of the people in Russia voted for him.

Such manipulation of the language allows them to let governments decide without consulting the people on very important topics like neutrality... they are elected by the people for the people so obviously if they say it is OK you can ignore protesters when it suits your interests to do so... and referendums are too expensive when you know the result is not going to go your way, while they are essential to democracy if you think they will go your way.

lancelot wrote:There were massive protests in Finland against joining NATO. And polls showed the vast majority of Finns were against joining as well. The whole thing was done by the politicians against the wishes of the majority of the population and I bet against Finnish corporations' will as well.

Nonsence, a majority of the finish people are positive too Nato since Russia invaded Ukraine.

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-10013570

They are now a European democracy... it does not matter what the majority of the population in that country think... it is all about education and information control... same as in Sweden... suppress all information about criminality by immigrants, and if you say anything bad about immigration then you are obviously racist... but when the information is changed or simply withheld then how can informed decisions even be made?

Well obviously they can't.

The west has the same problem with Russia... the western experts on Russia are fucking idiots like Pavel Felgenhauer and other morons with no qualifations other than often a grudge that things have changed and Russia has developed and cannot continue to be raped by western so called businessmen. Using this expert advice like the HATO trained Georgian forces would crush any tiny force Russia could mobilise in a short period of time, or Kiev will destroy Putins drunken army and use western super weapons to crush them on the battlefield in weeks if not months... but they keep doubling down... they are not wrong... sanctions are working... we just need more and harsher sanctions for it to start working... I am sure the 12th round of super sanctions is what they need to do the trick but it is OK if they don't work then obviously the 13th round will get it done.

The amusing thing is that the west thinks it is the aggressive Russians that are thwarting them at every turn and damaging the wests reputation, but they were never in any position to do that even if they wanted to.

Russia owned a lot of US debt... you don't buy a countries debt if you intend to destroy it... then you wont get your money back. Russia sold all the US debt it bought because the US was stopping it from using US dollars so obviously Russia needs to distance itself from any economic activity that involves US dollars... which means the US is no longer a useful international currency if a country like Russia can't use it who else could be next?

These are the geniuses that Finland and Sweden are throwing their lot in with... which is why I am happy... let them join and reveal their true feelings openly... don't hide your hate... let Russia see it for what it is and they can look elsewhere for trade and relations with other countries and not waste their time with you.