Il-114-300 cannot take off due to force majeure circumstances
10/07/2023
The Russian Ministry of Transport has proposed postponing deliveries of Il-114-300 turboprop aircraft to 2026. This follows from the materials for the project ( ID 142458 ) government decrees posted by the Ministry of Transport of the Russian Federation on the federal portal of draft regulatory legal acts regulation.gov.ru.
In accordance with the current comprehensive program for the development of the aviation industry, the first deliveries of the Il-114-300 should begin in 2024 with the transfer of two aircraft to the State Transport Leasing Company, which in 2020 entered into a firm contract with Il PJSC for the supply of three such aircraft in 2023. Subsequently, STLC planned to lease them to the Vologda Aviation Enterprise.
In the materials for the project, the postponement of deliveries to 2026 is explained by the presence of force majeure circumstances and the impossibility of continuing development work and certification of the Il-114-300 after the crash of a prototype of the Il-112V light military transport aircraft in Kubinka in August 2021. Both aircraft are equipped with the same type of TV7-117ST series engines developed by UEC-Klimov.
An application for approval of the Main change in the standard design of the basic Il-114 aircraft in relation to the modification of the Il-114-300 with two TV7-117ST-01 turboprop engines and AB-112-114 propellers was submitted to the Federal Air Transport Agency on December 3, 2019 year and accepted for consideration on December 25 of the same year. The current application period is until December 3, 2025.
“Due to the incident that occurred on August 17, 2021 with an experimental copy of the light military transport aircraft Il-112V, equipped with a TV7-117ST engine, during a training flight of the aircraft at the Kubinka airfield, Il PJSC is not able to carry out certification activities modernized aircraft Il-114-300. The suspension of flight testing and certification work lasts for about two years, which has a direct impact on the possibility of continuing development work, manufacturing aircraft and their delivery within the period stipulated by the contract,” says the explanatory note to the draft resolution.
It also says that “taking into account the received conclusion of the Union “Moscow Chamber of Commerce and Industry” dated March 21, 2023 on the presence of force majeure circumstances that prevented Il PJSC from fulfilling its obligations on time when executing the contract for the supply of three Il- 114-300, it is proposed to postpone the delivery date of aircraft to 2026.”
It is also planned to postpone the transfer to STLC of two Mi-38 helicopters to 2026, the contract for which was concluded in 2020 with a completion date in 2023. The shift in timing is due to the expected delay due to the heavy workload of production facilities in obtaining modified TV7-117V engines and “the need to carry out development work to replace foreign-made components with Russian ones,” according to the materials for the project.
Thus, delays in deliveries of Mi-38 helicopters and Il-114-300 aircraft are primarily related to the need for modifications to the TV7-117ST engine line and the workload of the UEC-Klimov and Il PJSC enterprises.
https://aviation21.ru/il-114-300-ne-mozhet-vzletet-iz-za-obstoyatelstv-nepreodolimoj-sily/
U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
lancelot- Posts : 2983
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This article does not say these aircraft are "frozen" just that their programs are delayed due to delays in validating the engines following the loss of the Il-112V prototype.lancelot wrote:As we already suspected, troubles with TV7-117ST engine have caused not only the Il-112V program to be cancelled to be replaced with a PD-8 powered aircraft, but the other vehicles which use it like Il-114-300 and Mi-38 have been frozen as well.
It also says nothing about the Il-112V being cancelled. Do you have a link to this? Maybe you are referring to the previous cancellation in 2010?
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Have you thought that maybe even with the boosted older aircraft the Il-112V was underpowered and that with the new more powerful engine it will just need modified engine mounts to take the new engines that will deliver the performance to make the design deliver better on its specs?
They haven't said much but perhaps they might even use a de-rated PD-8 to extend engine life and reduce fuel burn costs while still delivering a performance that improves the flight performance of all the aircraft that are going to be using it?
You negative attitude to the design is clouding your judgement in my biased and one eyed opinion.
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So engine problems led to the Il-112V changing engines and the other aircraft planning to use the same engine being delayed by a year or two.
Not a shock really considering the Russian economy is supposed to be collapsing now they don't have access to western parts and western money and investment.
This is the company that makes the engine saying that the engine is not certified so all the contracts it has signed with aircraft makers where it has to deliver x number of engines by y time to ensure they can complete contracts for aircraft to be delivered have to understand that they wont be able to deliver on time if it fails certification and needs changes or upgrades and that there is no point delivering anything till they are certified for use in aircraft.
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As for the Il-112V it is doubtful the existing wing would be strong enough for the PD-8. Both engines have widely different power and weight. Just for comparison the PD-8V turboshaft engine is expected to have 11500 hp while the TV7-117ST engine has 3500 hp. The PD-8 probably has like 3x the weight and 3x the power. It isn't just a matter of a small power increase. The aircraft will need to be redesigned, and if they go with the turbofan engine, then they will likely also redesign the wing to have more sweep so the aircraft can have a higher cruise speed. And since you have 3x the power you will likely also increase the size of the aircraft to be able to carry more payload. Simple as that.
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lancelot wrote:The problems with the TV7-117ST engine are quite severe. Reminds me of the issue with the MiG-23 engine where the engine shaft would bend and the blades break off destroying the engine. The engine will probably need to be redesigned.
As for the Il-112V it is doubtful the existing wing would be strong enough for the PD-8. Both engines have widely different power and weight. Just for comparison the PD-8V turboshaft engine is expected to have 11500 hp while the TV7-117ST engine has 3500 hp. The PD-8 probably has like 3x the weight and 3x the power. It isn't just a matter of a small power increase. The aircraft will need to be redesigned, and if they go with the turbofan engine, then they will likely also redesign the wing to have more sweep so the aircraft can have a higher cruise speed. And since you have 3x the power you will likely also increase the size of the aircraft to be able to carry more payload. Simple as that.
Why is the T7-117St such a shitty lemon, when its nothing revolutionary? Why was the An-12s engine tested without many problems and much delay? What does the TV-117 offer thats absolutely superior to the turboprops on the An-12(including its modern chinese copies). Why dont the russians just start building AN-12s again with their original engines? The Karakurt has garbage overcomplicated diesels from 1949, why cant russia just cope with newly built An-12s with the same engine as from 1970?
lancelot- Posts : 2983
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Other Russian helicopter engines originally designed in the 1990s also were crap. Not just the TV7-117. Another example is the failed Saturn RD-600V engine for the Ka-60. Back then they did not have the capabilities to do testing with computer simulations as you can do today. And the industry was in chaos, so it is not like they could just tinker with it until it worked ok, and build lots of physical prototypes to do parallel testing to figure out problems. The financing was just not there.limb wrote:Why is the T7-117St such a shitty lemon, when its nothing revolutionary? Why was the An-12s engine tested without many problems and much delay? What does the TV-117 offer thats absolutely superior to the turboprops on the An-12(including its modern chinese copies). Why dont the russians just start building AN-12s again with their original engines? The Karakurt has garbage overcomplicated diesels from 1949, why cant russia just cope with newly built An-12s with the same engine as from 1970?
As for why not use an older engine design, I assume the problem is the materials and techniques are probably not relevant anymore. It might be it uses alloys which are no longer produced and machine tools which are no longer in use either. If you had to redesign the engine to use new alloys and tools, it would likely have similar cost to develop a new engine.
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limb- Posts : 1550
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I mean gas turbines compnents from 1979 on the T-80BV are being mass produced produced, as well as replacement parts for the D-30 un unupgraded Il-76s, which use the same alloys as the Al-20 on the An-12so theres shouldnt be much of a problem to mass produce the Al-20 or Al-24VT.lancelot wrote:Other Russian helicopter engines originally designed in the 1990s also were crap. Not just the TV7-117. Another example is the failed Saturn RD-600V engine for the Ka-60. Back then they did not have the capabilities to do testing with computer simulations as you can do today. And the industry was in chaos, so it is not like they could just tinker with it until it worked ok, and build lots of physical prototypes to do parallel testing to figure out problems. The financing was just not there.limb wrote:Why is the T7-117St such a shitty lemon, when its nothing revolutionary? Why was the An-12s engine tested without many problems and much delay? What does the TV-117 offer thats absolutely superior to the turboprops on the An-12(including its modern chinese copies). Why dont the russians just start building AN-12s again with their original engines? The Karakurt has garbage overcomplicated diesels from 1949, why cant russia just cope with newly built An-12s with the same engine as from 1970?
As for why not use an older engine design, I assume the problem is the materials and techniques are probably not relevant anymore. It might be it uses alloys which are no longer produced and machine tools which are no longer in use either. If you had to redesign the engine to use new alloys and tools, it would likely have similar cost to develop a new engine.
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In both those cases the main production sites where in Russia. Which is not the for the Al-20 which was made in Ukraine.limb wrote:I mean gas turbines compnents from 1979 on the T-80BV are being mass produced produced, as well as replacement parts for the D-30 un unupgraded Il-76s, which use the same alloys as the Al-20 on the An-12so theres shouldnt be much of a problem to mass produce the Al-20 or Al-24VT.
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lancelot wrote:In both those cases the main production sites where in Russia. Which is not the for the Al-20 which was made in Ukraine.limb wrote:I mean gas turbines compnents from 1979 on the T-80BV are being mass produced produced, as well as replacement parts for the D-30 un unupgraded Il-76s, which use the same alloys as the Al-20 on the An-12so theres shouldnt be much of a problem to mass produce the Al-20 or Al-24VT.
Indeed. Russia lost so much in the brain drain. Capabilities were quickly lost and often it was just a shitty situation that could not be helped. The SU made sure to spread expertise around the WP nations and when the SU disintegrated so much progress was lost in the aerospace sector. Both in space and in the air and even land and sea products were lost and programs trying to work with former WP states often fell thru.
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The problems with the TV7-117ST engine are quite severe. Reminds me of the issue with the MiG-23 engine where the engine shaft would bend and the blades break off destroying the engine. The engine will probably need to be redesigned.
So you say but reports I have read like this suggest otherwise:
The turboprop engine TV7-117ST-01 has received the type certificate
12.01.2023, 13:44
183
Photo byUnited Engine Corporation (UEC)
Federal Air Transport Agency (Rosaviatsiya) has issued ODK-Klimov JSC with a Type Certificate for the TV7-117ST-01 engine. Obtaining a type certificate by the engine developer is an important step in the ongoing certification of the IL-114-300 aircraft, the agency’s press service said.
“The TV7-117ST-01 engine is an aviation turboprop engine with a free turbine, designed for use as part of the power plant of the IL-114-300 aircraft. It is based on the engine TV7-117S/SM, equipped with a modernized digital control unit BARK-65SM and adapted for the propeller AV112-114 development of NPP Aerosila, which is also undergoing certification, “- said in the message Rosaviatsiya.
Turboprop engines are divided into twin-shaft or free turbine and single-shaft. In the first case there is no mechanical connection between the gas generator and the transmission, the drive between the compressor turbine and the free turbine is only gas-dynamic. From the free turbine there is a separate shaft, which transmits the torque to the propeller through a reducer. In the second case, the turbine with the compressor and the propeller are on the same shaft.
The use of a free turbine has several advantages, including the possibility of operating the power unit of the aircraft on the ground as an auxiliary power unit – without the rotation of the propeller, with the working gas generator provides the aircraft with electricity and high pressure air for on-board systems.
The application of the axial centrifugal compressor, which combines the aerodynamic advantages of axial stages with high efficiency and centrifugal stages expanding the range of stable operation, is the best solution for small gas turbine engines with high thermodynamic cycle parameters. The annular counterflow combustion chamber, which is located around the turbine assembly, allowed to reduce the engine length, obtain good emission characteristics and low smoke level.
In the TV7-117 engine family, the turbine assembly is the result of compromises caused, in particular, by the small size of the turbine blades. The working blade of the first stage of the TV7-117 turbine is slightly larger than a thumbnail. Rotating at an enormous speed, such a part has to work for thousands of hours at the ambient gas temperature of one thousand and a half degrees. The corresponding technologies for manufacturing such parts have been developed by the engineers of ODK-Klimov together with the scientists of the Central Institute of Aviation Machine Building named after Baranov. Baranov Central Institute of Aviation Engineering and All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials.
A digital twin has been created for the engine TV7-117ST-01 – the first and so far the only example in the industry of a comprehensive approach to complete formalization of the gas-turbine engine design process with a detailed description of all controlled parameters and target values and interconnection of all calculation models created during product design. The CD is a virtual model integrated into the production. It will store and reflect detailed information about the creation, existing parameters and operation of each manufactured engine. The system will enable virtual testing, propulsion system behavior prediction, and determination of which engine elements are more expedient to produce using additive technologies.
Upgraded power plant for IL-114-300 includes turboprop engine TV7-117ST-01, air propeller AV-112-114 with propeller regulator PSV-34S-114, automatic control system of FADEC type BARK-65STM and fuel system units. ODK-Klimov is planning to carry out certification activities in order to expand the engine performance as well as to certify a TV7-117ST-02 engine modification for use in the TVRS-44 Ladoga aircraft propulsion system.
https://ruavia.su/the-turboprop-engine-tv7-117st-01-has-received-the-type-certificate/
And also this:
UEC to produce seven TV7-117ST-02 turboprop engines for flight testing
03.07.2023, 18:24
157
TV7-117ST-02 turboprop engine. Photo byUEC Klimov
ODK-Klimov is starting to manufacture bench samples of TV7-117ST-02 engines for testing. In December 2023, specialists from the St. Petersburg-based company will send two powerplants to be installed on the TVRS-44 Ladoga aircraft and to prepare the first prototype aircraft for the start of flight tests. This was reported by the press service of the United Engine Corporation.
The engines for the second aircraft will be handed over to the Ural Civil Aviation Plant in the spring of 2024. Three additional engines will also be prepared to go through the necessary stages for certification of the aircraft.
A total of seven propulsion systems required for the Ladoga regional turboprop programme will thus be manufactured by ODK-Klimov for flight testing. Also next year, the certification work on the engine will be completed and the company will move on to the start of serial production.
ODK-Klimov will launch serial production of the TV7-117ST-02 engines in 2025 with a volume of 25 power units per year, the ODK said.
The Comprehensive Plan for Development of the Aviation Industry till 2030 stipulates that the Ladoga aircraft will start being delivered to airlines in 2025. The Ural Civil Aviation Plant is expected to produce 15 aircraft in 2025 and, starting from 2026, will produce 25 planes a year.
But the company won’t be able to fulfill the program approved by the Russian government in 2025, and not a single Ladoga TVRS-44 will be delivered to its customers. UZGA calls the deadlines prescribed in the programme indicative and is guided by the deadlines set out in contracts with airlines – 2026-2027 depending on the operator.
https://ruavia.su/uec-to-produce-seven-tv7-117st-02-turboprop-engines-for-flight-testing/
So it seems the TV7-117ST-01 for the Il-114 is already certified, and the TV7-117ST-02 for the Baikal is not certified yet... according to these articles.
As for the Il-112V it is doubtful the existing wing would be strong enough for the PD-8. Both engines have widely different power and weight.
So a stronger wing is needed... oh, that makes it a completely different plane altogether...
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Just for comparison the PD-8V turboshaft engine is expected to have 11500 hp while the TV7-117ST engine has 3500 hp. The PD-8 probably has like 3x the weight and 3x the power. It isn't just a matter of a small power increase.
....
IL-112V aircraft will receive PD-8 engine
19.07.2023, 11:37
243
Photo byUAC
Light military transport aircraft IL-112V will be redesigned for turbojet engines PD-8. This is reported by RIA Novosti with reference to an informed source.
“The IL-112V design is planned to be redesigned for PD-8 jet engines. In particular, a number of changes will be made to the design of the aircraft’s wing, fuel system, other onboard systems,” the source said.
The IL-112V was designed for TV7-117ST turboprop engines. After the crash of the aircraft in August 2021 near Kubinka airfield during one of the flights in preparation for the Army Forum, work on the aircraft was effectively frozen. The main cause of the crash was said to be the inability of the onboard fire-fighting system to extinguish the fire of the right engine, because of which the fire destroyed the aileron control rods, the aircraft became uncontrollable and crashed into the forest. The cause of the fire was not officially announced.
In June at SPIEF-2023, Denis Manturov, deputy prime minister and head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, said that the IL-112V will be modified, according to him, technological changes will affect the design of the wing and engines.
A special feature of the IL-112V is the wing, which is a caisson design, where instead of two separate consoles connected to the centre wing, a one-piece wing is designed. The two-lobed, riveted from aluminium alloys, it is attached from above to the fuselage with the help of power elements and special fasteners. Previously, such a wing design has not been used on domestic transport aircraft. This design solution was calculated to lighten the weight of the aircraft and improve its economic efficiency. The wing design uses honeycomb structures with cladding made of composite materials. The wing’s power caisson is sealed under the fuel tank.
To meet the high requirements for the take-off and landing performance of the aircraft and to modify the aerodynamic characteristics of the wing in flight, it is equipped with double-slotted flaps with fixed deflector, brake flaps, interceptors and ailerons. The maximum flap deflection angle is 40°. Ailerons with a relative spread of 30%, occupy the end parts of the wing consoles. Aileron deflection angles: up 25°, down 17°. Two-section brake flaps and one-section interceptors are located above the flaps. The maximum angle of deflection of the brake flaps is 40°. Interceptors are designed to automatically parry the roll of the aircraft in the event of failure of one of the engines during takeoff or departure on the second lap, and on the ground to reduce the length of the run. The deflection angles of the interceptors are up to 20° in aileron mode and up to 40° in brake mode.
Because of the wing’s innovativeness, VASO encountered difficulties when assembling and mounting it on the fuselage. The IL-112B wing has a wingspan of 27.6 metres. In October 2016, VASO specialists stated that the manufacture of such panels (20 metres each) is very difficult for the company and suggested changing the design of the wing to simplify the technology of its manufacture. However, Ilyushin designers refused to do so, noting that it is impossible to redesign the wing.
The IL-112V light military transport aircraft is designed to transport and airdrop personnel, weapons, light military equipment and other cargoes with a maximum weight of 5 tonnes. The IL-112V is to replace the retiring AN-26 fleet. The IL-112V with turboprop engines has a cruising speed of 470 kilometres per hour and a range of 1,200 kilometres with maximum load.
https://ruavia.su/il-112v-aircraft-will-receive-pd-8-engine/
Sounds like it is going to be jet powered and not turboprop powered, which means 8 tons of thrust per engine instead of 3,500hp... they could easily derate the engines to perhaps 6 tons or less if that was a problem.
The aircraft will need to be redesigned, and if they go with the turbofan engine, then they will likely also redesign the wing to have more sweep so the aircraft can have a higher cruise speed.
It is not clear they want higher flight speed. The excess power would be useful for getting airborne with heavier loads of payload and fuel from shorter strips, but I doubt it will be a lot faster with the extra power, nor will they need it to be.
And since you have 3x the power you will likely also increase the size of the aircraft to be able to carry more payload. Simple as that.
They don't need more payload, there are larger aircraft designs for that.
Why is the T7-117St such a shitty lemon, when its nothing revolutionary?
It seems to be bad from some sources and just fine from others.
There are at least two models and I would expect the one they are using for the Mil-38 will be different too as it is a gas turbine that turns rotors instead of props is different too.
One appears to be certified and two have yet to be certified but then hasn't the Mi-38 already been produced serially in small numbers or are they still working on it?
What does the TV-117 offer thats absolutely superior to the turboprops on the An-12(including its modern chinese copies).
The AN-12 is in a totally different weight class to the aircraft we are talking about, and unlike the Il-112V, the An-12 has four engines as well.
The likely replacement for the An-12 will probably be a jet in the form of the Il-276 or the Tu-330... or in my opinion preferably both.
Why dont the russians just start building AN-12s again with their original engines?
Because it is an old Soviet design that is now obsolete and making a new aircraft just makes sense even if it not easy.
They can't just make more An-12s because they don't have the suitable engines for the job just yet and when they do why not put them in a brand new airframe based on developments and advances of the last 40 years?
It is funny... you would be the first to complain if the next gen super tank turned out to be not the T-14 but a further upgraded T-72.
If they don't know how to develop and make new transport planes and airliners it is because they used to give that job to the Ukraine and Airbus and Boeing.
Making your own planes takes longer but in the long term leads to more permanent solutions where sanctions don't ground your fleet.
The Karakurt has garbage overcomplicated diesels from 1949, why cant russia just cope with newly built An-12s with the same engine as from 1970?
Because when they get it working they will have a relatively new engine working in multiple airframes in their fleet and having that commonality would be a good thing.
I have seen the designs from the 1990s for twin turbo prop aircraft from Sukhoi intended to replace the Su-25 by being cheaper and simpler and easier to repair in combat and to serially manufacture in enormous numbers even during war time... the engines were specifically helicopter engines already in use so there would be no problems with front line units of CAS aircraft and helicopters sharing engine parts and fuel and other equipment.
Back then they did not have the capabilities to do testing with computer simulations as you can do today. And the industry was in chaos, so it is not like they could just tinker with it until it worked ok, and build lots of physical prototypes to do parallel testing to figure out problems. The financing was just not there.
Funny you mention that because the articles above mention a digital twin version of the TV7-117ST design being used for testing and to assist development.
I mean gas turbines compnents from 1979 on the T-80BV are being mass produced produced, as well as replacement parts for the D-30 un unupgraded Il-76s, which use the same alloys as the Al-20 on the An-12so theres shouldnt be much of a problem to mass produce the Al-20 or Al-24VT.
The gas turbines of the T-80 from 1979 are not the 1,250hp engines they use today nor the 1,500hp engines they will be using in a year or two.
The D-30 has all sorts of new components added, as have the new generation engines of the PD series and the new engine for the Su-57.
Which is not the for the Al-20 which was made in Ukraine.
The PD family of engines goes from about a PD-6 or so up to a PD-50, which covers pretty much any sensible power range you might want... if they want to de-rate or uprate the new designs they are intended for that to be a feature of the design.
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GarryB- Posts : 40006
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Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
Indeed. Russia lost so much in the brain drain. Capabilities were quickly lost and often it was just a shitty situation that could not be helped. The SU made sure to spread expertise around the WP nations and when the SU disintegrated so much progress was lost in the aerospace sector. Both in space and in the air and even land and sea products were lost and programs trying to work with former WP states often fell thru.
They did, but having a good education system they also continue to generate useful brains and more recently many have chosen to stay... some are even coming back.
The point is that often new technologies in some areas make advancements in other areas possible, and I would say in Russia right now their might be some gaps and areas where they are not that strong, but nothing critical and nothing that cannot be filled once the need is identified.
The problems with the Karakurt engine had more to do with the fact that they went from needing four a year to needing more than 30 and they just didn't have the capacity to expand production that fast at a time when other jobs were also demanding their resources and time.
Klimov was busy making engines for new Ka-52 and Mi-28s and new Mi-24/35s as well as working on quite a few other engines they needed as well.
The new engine for the Mi-26 is going to be based on the PD-8, but it is going to be a gas turbine driving rotor blades rather than a turboprop driving a propeller... it sounds to me like the Il-112V is going to become a jet powered aircraft... maybe de-rated to 4-6 tons of thrust.... it will be interesting to find out.
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The PD-8 engine, developed specifically for the Sukhoi Superjet 100 (SSJ-100), was launched for the first time on this aircraft, said Kirill Kuznetsov, chief designer of the aircraft at the Yakovlev production centre.
The power unit was launched as part of the SSJ 100 aircraft this week, Kuznetsov said, reports TASS .
Kuznetsov noted that the Superjet 100 project is being implemented in a short time, a little more than four years have passed from the moment the decision was made to the first flight. Construction of the prototype took about a year and a half.
According to Kuznetsov, during the implementation of the civil aircraft project, a new production cooperation emerged, including more than 20 enterprises and about 40 enterprises at the second and third levels of cooperation.
In August, the main and front landing gear of the SSJ 100 were tested.
https://vz.ru/news/2023/10/12/1234614.html
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Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
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Russian industry has mastered the deep modernization of Ukrainian D-18T engines
10/17/2023
The D-18T engine, which is used as a power plant on the An-124-100 heavy transport aircraft, is at the stage of completing a deep modernization; its spare parts are entirely produced in Russia. About it reported TASS source close to military transport aviation.
The D-18T engine develops a thrust of 23,400 kgf, it was developed in Zaporozhye by the Progress design bureau, and was produced there at the Motor Sich plant. Today in Russia there is no engine with a thrust of 23-25 tons. The PS-90A develops a thrust of 16,000 kgf, and the promising PD-35 is at the stage of testing a gas generator and manufacturing a demonstrator engine.
In July 2020, then Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov interview Interfax stated that the industry has mastered the repair of D-18T engines, and the first repaired engines have already been received. It was planned to reach the ability to repair at least 12 engines per year.
On October 11, 2023, during an inspection by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu of the Ulyanovsk Aviastar plant, the commander of military transport aviation, Lieutenant General Vladimir Benediktov, reported to the minister that the Russian high-thrust engine PD-35 or D-18T could be installed on promising models of heavy transport aircraft and modernized An-124-100.
At the meeting that the Minister of Defense held at Aviastar, it was said about the need to double the fleet of An-124 aircraft by 2025. “Due to the fact that we now have engines, we have the capabilities and power to modernize these aircraft. By 2025, they must be doubled,” said the head of the Russian military department.
A TASS source told the agency that a deep modernization of the D-18T is now being completed, as a result of which a new engine will be obtained; all spare parts for it are manufactured by Russian industry. “Both engines will be Russian, and the best one will be selected on a competitive basis,” he clarified, answering the question of which option - PD-35 or D-18T - is a higher priority.
https://aviation21.ru/rossijskaya-promyshlennost-osvoila-glubokuyu-modernizaciyu-ukrainskix-dvigatelej-d-18t/
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GarryB- Posts : 40006
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- Post n°366
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
Fix and upgrade the engines on the existing fleet of An-124 and put them all back into service, but keep working on the PD-35 because when that is fully ready they can make the Il-106 with two engines in the An-22 class which should be cheaper to operate than the An-124 especially for lighter loads, and a four engined Slon type super An-124 in the 180 ton payload class with four PD-35 engines that can carry even bigger loads and also potentially an An-225 version with an H tail for external loads on its back that can transport large loads around Russia as needed by the space industry.
Once the PD-35 is ready for serial production I would say the Il-106 would be the highest priority simply because it would be cheaper to operate and potentially more fuel efficient and a brand new design.
As PD-35 engine production ramps up the Slon can start testing and go into serial production too... both are obviously going to take time with testing but with local production of the D-18T engine and parts it is no longer necessary to rush anything.
This is good news assuming it is honest reporting and the only reason they weren't flying the whole An-124 fleet was engine parts shortage.
Of course the risk now is that using the An-124 widely creates the risk that they might be impounded if they land in the wrong country like Canada.
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- Post n°367
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
GarryB wrote:
Of course the risk now is that using the An-124 widely creates the risk that they might be impounded if they land in the wrong country like Canada.
The An-124 from Volga Dnepr has been illegally blocked from Canada because it belonged to a Russian company
The same would have happened if it was a il-76.
It has nothing to do with the fact that it is an Antonov.
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- Post n°368
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
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- Post n°369
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
It has nothing to do with the fact that it is an Antonov.
I know, but what I am saying is that this means that aircraft with greater flight range become more useful... an Il-212 that can carry a 5 ton payload and the extra 10 tons it could carry because of its extra power could be extra fuel so it can fly 5,000 or more kms without having to stop, so it can fly one side of Russia to the other, or carry a heavier payload over a shorter distance.
A 180 ton capacity Slon might only be carrying the same payloads that the An-124 is carrying but carrying them further without stops in unfriendly countries.
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- Post n°370
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
Which is still an old engine but it will be useful, as it allows to equip the an-124 without changes and maybe even produce new ones. Eventually it will be replaced by more modern (and possibly powerful) engines also on the An-124 (PD-24, with similar thrust, or more powerful PD-26 or PD-28).
@GarryB
I agree with what you write about the Slon, but it will still be useful to produce new modernised An-124 for a long while.
If Russia were able to fully produce independently the An-124 (especially if later with modern engines), then the priority would be the 80 tons payload il-106 (either with two PD-35 or PD-38 engines,as you suggested, or in the classical 4 engines configuration, with 4 engines with about 18 tons of thrust each), as An-22 replacement, not the Slon.
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- Post n°371
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
Designer Inozemtsev reported to Putin about the PD-14 and PD-35 aircraft engines
https://tass.ru/ekonomika/19066371
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- Post n°372
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
What it is not clear to me is if they mean that they can produce spare parts and repair the existing D-18T, or if they also mean that they can produce entirely new D-18T.
Just looking at the article it appears to me that they have to capacity to repair and support and keep operating the D-18T engines so all their An-124s can be put back into service with repaired engines they can support and keep running.
But in the last sentence it also mentions a deep modernisation of the D-18T engine is also under way, which suggests they might make new upgraded engines presumably if they decide to keep the An-124s operating and perhaps decide to use the engines in other new large transport types... maybe an Il-476 with two D-18TM engines with perhaps 25 or 26 tons thrust instead of four smaller engines...
A TASS source told the agency that a deep modernization of the D-18T is now being completed, as a result of which a new engine will be obtained; all spare parts for it are manufactured by Russian industry. “Both engines will be Russian, and the best one will be selected on a competitive basis,” he clarified, answering the question of which option - PD-35 or D-18T - is a higher priority.
Unless they ramp up the thrust to 30 plus tons it really wont offer the sort of power they were looking at to enable the Il-106 to be powered by two engines... the original has four in the 18 ton power range but having two engines with 35 tons thrust means two engines would do which means lower drag and lower frontal area with only two engines instead of four.
Which is still an old engine but it will be useful, as it allows to equip the an-124 without changes and maybe even produce new ones. Eventually it will be replaced by more modern (and possibly powerful) engines also on the An-124 (PD-24, with similar thrust, or more powerful PD-26 or PD-28).
That is perhaps part of the question.... what sort of power and performance will they get from the improved D-18T that they are working on... if they can manage 32 tons thrust then it might be real competition for the PD-35, but the articles we have seen regarding the PD-35 suggest it is going rather well.
As a backup an improved D-18T would be useful on an An-124... improvements in reliability and thrust would be useful for the aircraft... if you get an extra 3 to 4 tons thrust from the engine that means an extra 12 to 16 tons thrust for the aircraft... that would be important for takeoff and shorten the run and increase the payload potential and make it safer...
I suspect the PD-35 will be superior in most aspects and will allow the Il-106 and Slon to be realised, but with working engines and all the spares to keep it working they can extend the operational lives of the An-124 for much longer than if they didn't have the right engines.
The lighter Il-106 is going to be more fuel efficient for lighter loads and the Slon will be able to carry the same or more in a newer aircraft design, so while the An-124 will still be useful, it wont be as useful as the newer types IMHO.
Getting all the An-124s back into operational use should boost their logistics capacity quite significantly though.
I agree with what you write about the Slon, but it will still be useful to produce new modernised An-124 for a long while.
I have to agree... they made the entire aircraft in Russia, the only sticking point was the engines... which is a critical gap of course... but now they filled that gap so there is no reason to not use the planes they have.
I do hope they start making the Il-106 rather than making more An-124s because as an An-22 replacement I think the Il-106 is going to be a very useful and very popular aircraft, and will be cheaper for loads that are not quite big enough to require the bigger aircraft.
If Russia were able to fully produce independently the An-124 (especially if later with modern engines), then the priority would be the 80 tons payload il-106 (either with two PD-35 or PD-38 engines,as you suggested, or in the classical 4 engines configuration, with 4 engines with about 18 tons of thrust each), as An-22 replacement, not the Slon.
It is funny... I am writing responses to your comments one line at a time and then I look at the next comment and you pretty much repeat what I was replying to your earlier comments....
![Smile](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
I agree the Slon is not critical if they can put all the An-124s back into service with reliable engines that they can now support, and that the Il-106 should become the priority first as the An-22 is probably gone from service now and it filled a gap below the An-124 that was needed and was cheaper to use.
No worries. PD-35 is on the way.
That is good news.
The ability to upgrade and maintain the D-18T is useful for Russia and international users of the aircraft who might want to keep their aircraft flying too, and it will give them a fleet of good long range heavy transport planes very quickly, but the PD-35 is going to make the introduction of a twin engined Il-106 quicker and easier.... and it opens the door for perhaps other uses of the D-18T in lighter aircraft... it might be reliable enough in the upgraded version for use in a twin engined aircraft... perhaps put two on an Il-476 and see how that effects performance...
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- Post n°373
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
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- Post n°374
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
actually the il-96-500 nomenclature has been already mentioned for a proposed oversized cargo based on the il 96 quad jet aircraft.Swgman_BK wrote:All I am waiting for is a IL96-500 with 2 PD35s... That would be the ultimate FU to Airbus and Boeing. I don't particularly see Russian airlines moving away from that in favor of a 777.
![U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 15 Ilyushin-il-96-500t-b](https://aerotelegraph.imgix.net/production/uploads/2019/04/ilyushin-il-96-500t-b.jpg?auto=compress%2Cenhance%2Cformat&ch=Save-Data&crop=edges&dpr=3&fit=crop&s=a959f2f41c347f927ccc36ae631f49d9)
Such aircraft was proposed in 2019 and was a comparable concept to the airbus beluga.
Useful to carry large and oversized payloads but with lower weight (especially lower concentrated weight) than what a superheavy military cargo like the An-124 could do, like fuselage or aircraft wings.
The project never moved from the concept phase, but it would be worth to consider again a similar idea, after the new russian widebody powered by two PD-35 engine will be ready and in service.
Such aircraft will allow to save An-124, il-106 and /or Slon usage for actual missions that require them.
If you just need a oversize civilian cargo for large payloads with low density and you only use proper tarmac airports you do not need to use a superheavy military cargo.
By the way, the new widebody passenger jet will be most probably a il-96 derivative, but I believe it will have another name.
Furthermore its existence can allow another derivative, like a refueling plane or a Multi Role Tanker Transport, comparable to the Airbus A-330 MRTT.
Again this is not something completely new, since already in 2015 a new tanker variant of the Il-96, designated the Il-96-400TZ was proposed.
That project also did not move forward, but I believe that once the new twin engine widebody passenger jet will be ready, the new tanker will be created soon.
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- Post n°375
Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines
The Myasishchev VM-T only had a payload of about 15 tons or so... the things they carry are normally quite large structures but when empty they are often not that heavy. The An-225 could carry 250 tons, but the Buran was about 110 tons fully loaded...
For actually heavy loads the Slon with four PD-35 engines and an H tail would be needed, but for lighter but still bulky objects a modified Il-96 would be interesting.
But the inflight refuelling Il-96 makes a lot of sense because it is designed as a long range quite fast airliner, compared with the Il-78 which is based on a transport plane designed to operate from rough airstrips.
The Il-96 would be more fuel efficient and could operate from the same long flat runways the bombers they are going to be fuelling operate from.
The aircraft can fly together at a higher speed to the north pole and then refuel the bombers faster and with more fuel so the bombers will have a full fuel load closer to their launch positions meaning they can fly faster and therefore be safer and return home quicker.
The Il-78 would be more useful refuelling tactical fighter aircraft and could operate from much shorter airfields distributed around the place.
Now that most of their new aircraft have inflight refuelling probes the number of inflight refuelling aircraft should increase...
Some form of Elint aircraft types in Tu-214 and Il-96 would be interesting too and I would say as new radar technology improves they should develop Tu-214 based AWACS platforms and IFR aircraft too.
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