Russian Navy: Status & News #4

Isos wrote: AB radars are not 1 km altitude to see that much farther, they may see 1km more than buyan, not more.

Buyan-M is a small boat with very good shapes that reduce its rcs.

It would be probably a bit more then 1 km but that is not what matter.

What matter is>


AB have helicopter with radar that could find ship on distance up to 250 from helicopter and that chopper could be sent far in front of AB. So AB have asset to find Buyan on several hundred km ahead.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

marat wrote:

He cannot find AB from more then 40 km, no matter what is stated in promo material. Radar is low so his horizont is not 300 km.

and how AB could find it? its I see you you see mey scenario. Unless you talk about OTH right?


for plain radar horizon form ship height of 50m to shipof 20 meters you havs 47kms  horizon...


http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

I mentioned more then once that AB have that little toys  called HELICOPTERS, equipped with RADARS, Radars with range up to 250 Km. Helicopter could climb on several KM so their horizont is big enough to actually use potential range of their radars and they can fly hundred of Km from ships.

PS> Thank you for link with radar horizont calculator.

marat wrote:
I mentioned more then once that AB have that little toys  called HELICOPTERS, equipped with RADARS, Radars with range up to 250 Km. Helicopter could climb on several KM so their horizont is big enough to actually use potential range of their radars and they can fly hundred of Km from ships.

OK I didnt see this post before posting mine relax

to me ABs go in packs as 22800 do.  Both have support in C4I . If small ship doesn't have to see AB but ut onlu come to position thne shoot and has  2x range missiles then we got the winer i guess.

But as I mentioned there is nonsense to count of ship to ship action. No realistic scenario.



@marat you're welcome. It always helps with discussion about AWACS or optical reconnaissance: drones

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

marat wrote:
I mentioned more then once that AB have that little toys  called HELICOPTERS, equipped with RADARS, Radars with range up to 250 Km. Helicopter could climb on several KM so their horizont is big enough to actually use potential range of their radars and they can fly hundred of Km from ships.

OK I didnt see this post before posting mine relax Anyway there is no real scenario one 22800 fighting against one AB. ABsgo in packs as 22800. First 22800 are going to use SAT/AWACS/Tu-142 data to coordinate attacks not just shoot at will. If small ship doesnt have to see AB but has 2x range missiles then we got the winer i guess.

But as I mentioned there is nonsense to count of ship to ship action. No realistic scenario.

Sorry

That is true, one-to-one scenario is not realistic, I didn't denied that.

If we introduce whole system then yes, IF Buyan or Karakut would get information about AB position early enough, then they could shot first and run away, and their missiles are very dangerous. But you know, is isn't really realistic that single AB would co close to Russian coast alone

Actually I find Karakut and Buyan useful as small FAC armed with ASM, but I do not find them very useful for Surface-ground Cruise Missile attack
I just do not find any advantage they have in that mode compared with TU-95 as I mentioned before.

Actually I find Karakut and Buyan useful as small FAC armed with ASM, but I do not find them very useful for Surface-ground Cruise Missile attack
I just do not find any advantage they have in that mode compared with TU-95 as I mentioned before.

They can do other roles like patroling economic zones for 15 days. Tu-95 is limited in its patroling capacities and has other roles. UKSK is not only limited to ground attack. With a battle management system they can attack ships, submarines and ground targets. They can also be used as radar to watch position for a long time.

Tu-95 can be destroyed on the ground or be unable to take off because runway is destroyed.

Imagine what would be to escort a AB coming into black sea with only tu-95 for 10 days.

Il-38N is able to find air targets at ranges of up to 90 kilometers and follow the surface objects within a radius of 320 kilometers.
8 aircraft have been delivered to the Russian Navy.
httperational range[/b]
600 km (320 nmi) (Kh-22M/MA)[1]
Flight ceiling 10-14 km or 27 km
Speed Mach 4.6 (5,635.2 km/h; 3,501.6 mph)
Guidance system
Inertial guidance followed by terminal active radar homing
Launch platform Tu-22M, Тu-95К22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-38#Specifications_(Il-38)

The "Vega-M" is capable of tracking up to 150 targets simultaneously within 230 kilometers. Large targets, like surface ships, can be tracked at a distance of 400 km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50#Description

The subs can find ABs w/o a radar & blow them up with their ASMs &/ torpedoes, or vector others to do it.

Il-38N is able to find air targets at ranges of up to 90 kilometers and follow the surface objects within a radius of 320 kilometers.
8 aircraft have been delivered to the Russian Navy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-38#Variants

Operational range
600 km (320 nmi) (Kh-22M/MA)[1]
Flight ceiling 10-14 km or 27 km
Speed Mach 4.6 (5,635.2 km/h; 3,501.6 mph)
Guidance system
Inertial guidance followed by terminal active radar homing
Launch platform Tu-22M, Тu-95К22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-22

The "Vega-M" is capable of tracking up to 150 targets simultaneously within 230 kilometers. Large targets, like surface ships, can be tracked at a distance of 400 km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50#Description

The subs can find ABs w/o a radar & blow them up with their ASMs &/ torpedoes, or vector others to do it.

Isos wrote:

Actually I find Karakut and Buyan useful as small FAC armed with ASM, but I do not find them very useful for Surface-ground Cruise Missile attack
I just do not find any advantage they have in that mode compared with TU-95 as I mentioned before.

They can do other roles like patroling economic zones for 15 days. Tu-95 is limited in its patroling capacities and has other roles. UKSK is not only limited to ground attack. With a battle management system they can attack ships, submarines and ground targets. They can also be used as radar to watch position for a long time.

Tu-95 can be destroyed on the ground or be unable to take off because runway is destroyed.

Imagine what would be to escort a AB coming into black sea with only tu-95 for 10 days.

That is mostly true.
Like Tu-95 could be destroyed on ground Buyan and Karakut could be destroyed in ports. That is even more likely as airports with Tu-95 are far in Russia inland.

For patrols you do not need CM, and you have better ship for that- 22160, they are also better for escorting AB or even ramming him if needed . 22160 is project that i like very much and i would like to see anti submarine version of it, with Paket, some modernized RBU-6000, and off course with helicopter.


Buyan and Karakut used as antisubmarine ships? Not very likely as they have no dedicated antisubmarine equipment.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Il-38N is able to find air targets at ranges of up to 90 kilometers and follow the surface objects within a radius of 320 kilometers.
8 aircraft have been delivered to the Russian Navy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-38#Variants

Operational range
600 km (320 nmi) (Kh-22M/MA)[1]
Flight ceiling 10-14 km or 27 km
Speed Mach 4.6 (5,635.2 km/h; 3,501.6 mph)
Guidance system
Inertial guidance followed by terminal active radar homing
Launch platform Tu-22M, Тu-95К22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-22

The "Vega-M" is capable of tracking up to 150 targets simultaneously within 230 kilometers. Large targets, like surface ships, can be tracked at a distance of 400 km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50#Description

The subs can find ABs w/o a radar & blow them up with their ASMs &/ torpedoes, or vector others to do it.

Are you still in discussion regarding AS potential of Buyan/Karakut vs AB?

Submarines could find and blow Buyan and Karakut as well, or even more easier as none of them have any ASW equipement , and AB have quite good ASW potential starting with sonars (acctualy 2 of them one of them is towed), torpedos and helicopter.

Guys do you really try to compare AB and Buyan and Karakut??? Please be seriouse.

There are dozens of thing that AB could do better then Buyan and Karakut starting with AS mission AD Missions, ASW mission, Ground Attack missions, escort , patrols,..... and just one that Buyan and Karakut could do better then AB and that is using rivers..

marat wrote:
Actually I find Karakut and Buyan useful as small FAC armed with ASM, but I do not find them very useful for Surface-ground Cruise Missile attack
I just do not find any advantage they have in that mode compared with TU-95 as I mentioned before.

True, but land attack missions is IMHO theirs' secondary job. The primary one is to be C4I near-sea-zone launch platforms.

Buyan and Karakut used as antisubmarine ships? Not very likely as they have no dedicated antisubmarine equipment

They have sigma battle management system. Other plateforms will provide targeting data. They bring firepower.

Everything can be destroyed but ships are well protected against air attacks and water can't be destroyed, they don't need runways. And during crisis no one let ships at port.

Buyan are older than 22160. They stoped producing them because they have new designs. Karakurt being one of those is suppose to go farther into ocean and could follow a gorshkoc to bring 8 missiles per ship to launch massive salvos.

A simple exemple of what ships can do and not planes would be Syria. They don't need 10 kirov to protect syria. One slava to bring big radars, helicopters and big missiles and lot of smaller boats to bring fire power. Data about location of enemy ships will always be send to all ships while slava's air defence protect the whole group. They can stay there for months.

Air force would need hundreds of ships for that role and at they end they would all be so used that they would need to replace them. Planes are good when the hostilities starts and you know where to send them. But making surveillane 24/7 with planes for months is impossible.

and just one that Buyan and Karakurt could do better then AB and that is using rivers..

In a recent video from Zelenodolsk, their new boats were transported on special barges as there isn't enough water now in the river. They may not be able to go too far inland on their own. But shallow draft barges with CM containers could be used w/o violating SALT.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

and just one that Buyan and Karakurt could do better then AB and that is using rivers..

In a recent video from Zelenodolsk, their new boats were transported on special barges as there isn't enough water now in the river. They may not be able to go too far inland on their own. But shallow draft barges with CM containers could be used w/o violating SALT.

I generally don't find that capability of using river matters.
Why>

If big war happens all weapons limitations agreements will be breached in no time by all sides, and Calibers will be put on all platforms that Russia find useful. So they will be on trucks in no time. If some local war emerge then they will act from sea or calibers would be launched from air.
So river capability is important just for transit from one fleet to another.

Isos wrote:

Buyan and Karakut used as antisubmarine ships? Not very likely as they have no dedicated antisubmarine equipment

They have sigma battle management system. Other plateforms will provide targeting data. They bring firepower.

Everything can be destroyed but ships are well protected against air attacks and water can't be destroyed, they don't need runways. And during crisis no one let ships at port.

Buyan are older than 22160. They stoped producing them because they have new designs. Karakurt being one of those is suppose to go farther into ocean and could follow a gorshkoc to bring 8 missiles per ship to launch massive salvos.

A simple exemple of what ships can do and not planes would be Syria. They don't need 10 kirov to protect syria. One slava to bring big radars, helicopters and big missiles and lot of smaller boats to bring fire power. Data about location of enemy ships will always be send to all ships while slava's air defence protect the whole group. They can stay there for months.

Air force would need hundreds of ships for that role and at they end they would all be so used that they would need to replace them. Planes are good when the hostilities starts and you know where to send them. But making surveillane 24/7 with planes for months is impossible.

Many wrong things you have wrote in this post.

Everything can be destroyed, even big and well defend ships, that happened many time in history, same as many ships were destroyed in ports or other hideouts during war time.

Buyan are still in production last 2 were started this year.

And if you see Buyan and Karakut just as missile transport ships then you are wrong they are more then that. But they are not wonderweapon (as seems many members of this forum see them), and they are not ASW assets, they have many limitations and they cannot replace frigates or destroyers in no task.

Surveillance with aircrafts is much more suitable then with ships as they see much further. Did you check link that Gunship posted? Ships cannot see more then 30-50 km. Aircrafts can-they can see ships up tu 400-500 km away, so one plane can do job of many ships. You really believe that Japan and USA have that big number of patrol aircrafts for no reasons? They do not lack big ships but patrol aircrafts are much needed.

Offcourse you would need decent number of aircrafts and that is just one of things that Russia lack and that Russia have to improve. Russia need new marine patrol aircrafts and need dozens of them.

Any way Russia need also big ships like Gorshov and Grigorevich and yoo cannot compensate their slow production with Buyan and Karakut, unless you find that only job for RuNy is to be costal defence force. And i hope that that will not be case.

marat wrote:

Isos wrote:

Buyan and Karakut used as antisubmarine ships? Not very likely as they have no dedicated antisubmarine equipment

They have sigma battle management system. Other plateforms will provide targeting data. They bring firepower.

Everything can be destroyed but ships are well protected against air attacks and water can't be destroyed, they don't need runways. And during crisis no one let ships at port.

Buyan are older than 22160. They stoped producing them because they have new designs. Karakurt being one of those is suppose to go farther into ocean and could follow a gorshkoc to bring 8 missiles per ship to launch massive salvos.

A simple exemple of what ships can do and not planes would be Syria. They don't need 10 kirov to protect syria. One slava to bring big radars, helicopters and big missiles and lot of smaller boats to bring fire power. Data about location of enemy ships will always be send to all ships while slava's air defence protect the whole group. They can stay there for months.

Air force would need hundreds of ships for that role and at they end they would all be so used that they would need to replace them. Planes are good when the hostilities starts and you know where to send them. But making surveillane 24/7 with planes for months is impossible.

Many wrong things you have wrote in this post.

Everything can be destroyed, even big and well defend ships, that happened many time in history, same as many ships were destroyed in ports or other hideouts during war time.

Buyan are still in production last 2 were started this year.

And if you see Buyan and Karakut just as missile transport ships then you are wrong they are more then that. But they are not wonderweapon (as seems many members of this forum see them), and they are not ASW assets, they have many limitations and they cannot replace frigates or destroyers in no task.

Surveillance with aircrafts is much more suitable then with ships as they see much further. Did you check link that Gunship posted? Ships cannot see more then 30-50 km. Aircrafts can-they can see ships up tu 400-500 km away, so one plane can do job of many ships.  You really believe that Japan and USA have that big number of patrol aircrafts for no reasons? They do not lack big ships but patrol aircrafts are much needed.

Offcourse you would need decent number of aircrafts and that is just one of things that Russia lack and that Russia have to improve. Russia need new marine patrol aircrafts and need dozens of them.

Any way Russia need also big ships like Gorshov and Grigorevich and yoo cannot compensate their slow production with Buyan and Karakut, unless you find that only job for RuNy is to be costal defence force. And i hope that that will not be case.

I never said small ships can replace patrol aircraft and frigates.

I said they pack a UKSK and they can bring firepower. So they can launch torpedo missiles with the location data provided by anotger ship that may have run out of ammo.

Patrol aircraft can see farther but they can't operate for 10 days. They need to go back and it costs a lot. A buyan can follow a destroyer that enters in black sea for 15 days. No need to have radars that see 400km away if you see the ship with your eyes.

Patrol aircraft will detect it but will have to leave. So no constant observation. I'm not saying patrol aircraft are useless. During war time they are very good. They are good also to know what is coming close to you. But once a destroyer get close and stays there for a couple of week you send a ship to et an eye on it, not patrol aircraft.

In a recent video from Zelenodolsk, their new boats were transported on special barges as there isn't enough water now in the river.

The 22160s are going downriver from Zelenodolsk with pontoons welded to the side because the basic design is too deep for the river, same happens with the Gepards (to Caspian or to Vietnam).
Buyan-Ms go downriver without since the design was intentionally kept shallow enough.

Thanks for that info.! At 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuwBPLTUZp4

Project 20380 ships can do ASW: https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/steregushchy-class/
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_20380.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGQOX2rK5s

A buyan can follow a destroyer that enters in black sea for 15 days. No need to have radars that see 400km away if you see the ship with your eyes.

They have radars in Crimea for AShMs that cover all of the Black Sea. A Kilo SSK can shadow a ship w/o being detected, look at & take pics of it through its periscope & transmit it to shore. A few drones can do the same indefinitely.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Thanks for that info.! At 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuwBPLTUZp4

Project 20380 ships can do ASW: https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/steregushchy-class/
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_20380.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGQOX2rK5s

A buyan can follow a destroyer that enters in black sea for 15 days. No need to have radars that see 400km away if you see the ship with your eyes.

They have radars in Crimea for AShMs that cover all of the Black Sea. A Kilo SSK can shadow a ship w/o being detected, look at & take pics of it through its periscope & transmit it to shore. A few drones can do the same indefinitely.

During peace time you want the enemy to see you following him. And you want to see what's going on on the ship.

True. That ship will detect being painted by Russian radars & checked by UAVs & SU-24s as already happened in the the Black & Baltic Seas.
Most activity takes place inside the modern ship, so there isn't much to see on weather decks anyway. No need for a boat & lose more $ taking pics of sailors on a smoke break or fishing.

Tsavo Lion wrote:True. That ship will detect being painted by Russian radars & checked by UAVs & SU-24s as already happened in the the Black & Baltic Seas.
Most activity takes place inside the modern ship, so there isn't much to see on weather decks anyway. No need for a boat & lose more $ taking pics of sailors on a smoke break or fishing.

Su-24 and uav will stay some hours above it and go home to refuel. Then the enemy ship can launch cruise missiles or a speed boat with special forces or do black ops with uav ... or anything else.

A ship will follow it 24/7 and will prevent those type of actions.

Several long endurance UAVs can stay there 24/7. SOFs swimmers can exit a well deck or other compartments & reach their objective underwater w/o a speed boat. A boat for more distant targets will also be detected from the air.

marat wrote:Surveillance with aircrafts is much more suitable then with ships as they see much further. Did you check link that Gunship posted? Ships cannot see more then 30-50 km. Aircrafts can-they can see ships up tu 400-500 km away, so one plane can do job of many ships.  You really believe that Japan and USA have that big number of patrol aircrafts for no reasons? They do not lack big ships but patrol aircrafts are much needed.

Offcourse you would need decent number of aircrafts and that is just one of things that Russia lack and that Russia have to improve. Russia need new marine patrol aircrafts and need dozens of them.

Russia needs new marine patrol aircraft.. dozens of them.

Like the 1 "on the basis of an upgraded Ilyushin Il-114-300":
http://tass.com/defense/1018969

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23258/Russia_To_Develop_EW_Aircraft_Based_On_Upgraded_Il_114_300_Plane#.W5Rp_NJKiXY

https://news.rambler.ru/troops/40634198-minoborony-rf-opredelitsya-s-zakupkami-il-114-do-kontsa-goda/

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Russia needs new marine patrol aircraft.. dozens of them.

Like the 1 "on the basis of an upgraded Ilyushin Il-114-300":
http://tass.com/defense/1018969

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23258/Russia_To_Develop_EW_Aircraft_Based_On_Upgraded_Il_114_300_Plane#.W5Rp_NJKiXY

https://news.rambler.ru/troops/40634198-minoborony-rf-opredelitsya-s-zakupkami-il-114-do-kontsa-goda/

yes something like that, just to produce them. But off course they need bigger ones too, to cover oceans.

Don't worry, IL-38s, TU-142/95s can soldier on for decades more.