Russian Navy: Status & News #4

eehnie wrote:
  You always promote low-armed or unarmed ships for Russia... As big as possible... As many as possible... While you hate every competent and well armed ship...

All but fair...

Fooling no-one...

Nobody oppose for big and well armed ships, but simply now for Russia 3.6k tonns frigates or 6kt landing ships are big challenge and they cannot finish them. It woyuld be pure wasting of time and money starting to building bigger ships if you are not capable to finish smaller ones.

And btw you are one claiming that Russia started building destroyers? You still thing so?

marat wrote:

eehnie wrote:  
  You always promote low-armed or unarmed ships for Russia... As big as possible... As many as possible... While you hate every competent and well armed ship...

All but fair...

Fooling no-one...

PS: These are days to put Spanish fascists and staunch zionists on suicide watch. Rajoy and Netanyahu crying and begging by all the corners...

Nobody oppose for big and well armed ships, but simply now for Russia 3.6k tonns frigates or 6kt landing ships are big challenge and they cannot finish them. It woyuld be pure wasting of time and money starting to building bigger ships if you are not capable to finish smaller ones.

And btw you are one claiming that Russia started building destroyers? You still thing so?

The procedures for the adoption of new ships in Russia say that the construction of the first unit of the Project 23560 was to start short after April 2017, when the preliminary design of the ship was approved, and the technical project of the ship begins. The laid down of the first unit of the Project 23560 is also predictable, and should come in the short term. The reality will come over those that insulted me, including Pope Dragon, always wrong, Pontifex Maximus, like a truck over a shit in the road.

At this point, the preliminary design of the project of conventional submarine Kalina was announced as finished. Pending approval of the Ministry of Defense.

The timeline to present to the Ministry of Defense complete preliminary designs for the new aircraft carriers seems to finish by the end of 2018. At this point the Project 23000 seems the alone option with a preliminary design finished that will be presented. Other options seem not finished still. Later a preliminary design will be approved by the Ministry of Defense. Likely in 2019. And this data will mark also the begin of the technical design and construction of the new aircraft carrier, with a laid down by 2020 or 2021.

But the hate of PapaDragon is not limited only to these projects. Includes also the Project 22350, the Project 11711, the Project 956, and other projects of competent current ships actually in service.

PS: The Spanish fascists and Rajoy now are crying at home.

eehnie wrote:

marat wrote:
Nobody oppose for big and well armed ships, but simply now for Russia 3.6k tonns frigates or 6kt landing ships are big challenge and they cannot finish them. It woyuld be pure wasting of time and money starting to building bigger ships if you are not capable to finish smaller ones.

And btw you are one claiming that Russia started building destroyers? You still thing so?

The procedures for the adoption of new ships in Russia say that the construction of the first unit of the Project 23560 was to start short after April 2017, when the preliminary design of the ship was approved, and the technical project of the ship begins. The laid down of the first unit of the Project 23560 is also predictable, and should come in the short term. The reality will come over those that insulted me, including Pope Dragon, always wrong, Pontifex Maximus, like a truck over a shit in the road.

But you claimed that those ships ARE ALREADY in production several months ago, and that was not case, and still it is not case, or you still thing opposite?

marat wrote:

eehnie wrote:The procedures for the adoption of new ships in Russia say that the construction of the first unit of the Project 23560 was to start short after April 2017, when the preliminary design of the ship was approved, and the technical project of the ship begins. The laid down of the first unit of the Project 23560 is also predictable, and should come in the short term. The reality will come over those that insulted me, including Pope Dragon, always wrong, Pontifex Maximus, like a truck over a shit in the road.

But you claimed that those ships ARE ALREADY in production several months ago, and that was not case, and still it is not case, or you still thing opposite?

There is a source that says it, and I think is right because the status of the procedures for adoption and construction of this ship agree with it. As I said in my previous message the construction of the first unit of the project 23560 was to start after april 2017 according to the habitual procedures.

How can you assure that it "was not the case, and still is not the case"? The construction of a ship begins not with the official laid down, begins before.

eehnie wrote:

marat wrote:

eehnie wrote:The procedures for the adoption of new ships in Russia say that the construction of the first unit of the Project 23560 was to start short after April 2017, when the preliminary design of the ship was approved, and the technical project of the ship begins. The laid down of the first unit of the Project 23560 is also predictable, and should come in the short term. The reality will come over those that insulted me, including Pope Dragon, always wrong, Pontifex Maximus, like a truck over a shit in the road.

But you claimed that those ships ARE ALREADY in production several months ago, and that was not case, and still it is not case, or you still thing opposite?

There is a source that says it, and I think is right because the status of the procedures for adoption and construction of this ship agree with it. As I said in my previous message the construction of the first unit of the project 23560 was to start after april 2017 according to the habitual procedures.

How can you assure that it "was not the case, and still is not the case"? The construction of a ship begins not with the official laid down, begins before.

There are dozens of sources that work didn't started yet.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/january-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/5851-work-on-project-23560-destroyer-detailed-design-to-begin-in-russia-after-2020.html

But ok time will tell for now there are no proof that building started.

marat wrote:

eehnie wrote:There is a source that says it, and I think is right because the status of the procedures for adoption and construction of this ship agree with it. As I said in my previous message the construction of the first unit of the project 23560 was to start after april 2017 according to the habitual procedures.

How can you assure that it "was not the case, and still is not the case"? The construction of a ship begins not with the official laid down, begins before.

There are dozens of sources that work didn't started yet.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/january-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/5851-work-on-project-23560-destroyer-detailed-design-to-begin-in-russia-after-2020.html

But ok time will tell for now there are no proof that building started.

Yes, and I think these sources are wrong, because what they say agrees not with the status of the procedures for adoption and construction of this project.

There is too much noise about the most important projects of the Russian Navy. In part media noise, but very much noise in the comments of people like Papadragon that do not accept the Russian Navy moving forward, and reach the point of insulting who say other thing.

The different projects are meeting the different stages in the procedure for adoption and construction of every project. And more or less Russia is making public it. The preliminary design of the Project 23560 was approved by the Ministry of Defense in April 2017. Multiple sources say it. This stage was completed. The next stage is the technical design that goes together with the construction of the first unit (at least). This is the reality, despite the noise, and the reality will be more and more evident with the time, for the shame of those that insulted.

Murmansk to Wladiwostok is ten days. Even less. The Kilos got that endurance.

Well apparently I was very wrong on my assumption of the range/endurance
Russian Wiki quotes 12000km at 7kt snorkeling, 45 days autonomy which is way more than I thought.
I make Murmansk to Vladivostok near bang on 10000km which would be about 32days so yeah, in range but I think the ice bit would be a problem, gonna be harder to get through icy water and you risk damage, plus you're talking newbie crew.

Baltysk to Oran is only about 4850km, well within range of a newbie crew, only 15.5days.
Baltysk to Latakia is about 8200km and they've had 6 newbie crews do it now so 10000km isn't all that much further.

I still think a ship carrier is most likely though.

hoom wrote:

Murmansk to Wladiwostok is ten days. Even less. The Kilos got that endurance.

Well apparently I was very wrong on my assumption of the range/endurance  
Russian Wiki quotes 12000km at 7kt snorkeling, 45 days autonomy which is way more than I thought.
I make Murmansk to Vladivostok near bang on 10000km which would be about 32days so yeah, in range but I think the ice bit would be a problem, gonna be harder to get through icy water and you risk damage, plus you're talking newbie crew.

Baltysk to Oran is only about 4850km, well within range of a newbie crew, only 15.5days.
Baltysk to Latakia is about 8200km and they've had 6 newbie crews do it now so 10000km isn't all that much further.

I still think a ship carrier is most likely though.

This will be russian subs with russian crews traveling from one russian city to another along the russian northern coast. Remember that the Kilo´s for the Black Sea were traveling from the Baltic to the Barents Sea for testing of its systems and weapons and then going all the way trough the Med to the Black Sea. This would be the same, except that the subs will move to the Far East. The can stop at any port along the route, visit the new bases and so on. Good test for the crew and the subs.

Looking at the newest ship of the russian Coast Guard i was thinking about something. With all this new small ships being build for the Coast Guard, Rosgardija (Grachenok) and the FSB... wouldn´t it be better if the Navy gets rid of its smaller boats (including the 3 Buyans) and concentrates on larger vessels (Karakurt and heavier)?

Hole wrote:Looking at the newest ship of the russian Coast Guard i was thinking about something. With all this new small ships being build for the Coast Guard, Rosgardija (Grachenok) and the FSB... wouldn´t it be better if the Navy gets rid of its smaller boats (including the 3 Buyans) and concentrates on larger vessels (Karakurt and heavier)?

No, those 3 Buyan artillery boats are special river-sea vessels for Caspian sea flotilla to protect Volga river delta.

PapaDragon wrote:

Those small boats are seriously useful in any modern day armed conflict (distributed lethality).

And coast guard and naval ships are not really comparable. Navy is military, Coast Guard are police.

They are very useful but also easy targets if not protected against air attacks. Against antiship missile, chaffs should hide them very well because of their small size. But if they are spoted by fighter/bombers they are dead. Pantsir will help them but not protect them totally.

IMO coast guard ships should also have uksk but without missiles durung peacetime. At least the biger ships they have. It cost nothing to add empty tubes. No need all the radars only Sigma battle management system for targeting using informations from navy.

Not only, 3 Buyan-Ms r in the Baltic & 3 in the BSF, with 4 more under construction. They're missile corvettes, not artillery boats.
http://www.defence24.com/buyans-in-the-black-sea-fleet
https://navaltoday.com/2018/05/09/russian-navy-to-commission-sixth-buyan-m-corvette-vyshny-volochyok-this-month/

eehnie: to u, ship construction starts with preliminary design; to the rest of us, it starts with actual keel laying. Even after that, it may be stopped, scrapped or changed to something else. As u see it, any1 who disagrees with u is insulting u, but u r "always right" & therefore can't & never insult any1 even if u wanted to.
As for the Spanish fascists under Franco, they held their country together just like the Russian Bolsheviks & Communists did, & now self-admitted nationalist V. Putin does. As Gorbachev said, "we also  have many "Catalonias". Franco was more nationalist than fascist; he just allied with Italy & Germany to avoid becoming another occupied France & saw no reason to ally or stay neutral with Anglo-Saxons who defeated them before. The same Anglo-Saxons want to weaken, fragment & colonize Russia now; so just because Spain, Italy, Germany & USSR were on opposing sides in the WWII, it doesn't mean that there're no similarities between the Spanish Empire, Franco Spain, Germany & RF/Russian Empire.
http://russian7.ru/post/yernst-remer-kak-general-vermakhta-pred/

So, if u don't want to be dominated by any1, as u claim this forum is, stop pressing the same issue with that stupid banner & join some other forum instead of wasting urs & our time!

Hole wrote:Looking at the newest ship of the russian Coast Guard i was thinking about something. With all this new small ships being build for the Coast Guard, Rosgardija (Grachenok) and the FSB... wouldn´t it be better if the Navy gets rid of its smaller boats (including the 3 Buyans) and concentrates on larger vessels (Karakurt and heavier)?

I'm not sure if it is necessary a transference of ships between the Russian Navy and the Russian Coast Guard in the refered to patrol ships, but there is some redundance between the Russian Coast Guard and the following patrol ships of the Russian Navy Auxiliary Fleet:

- Project 21980
- Project 1400
- Project 12150
- Project 03160
- Project 02510
- Project 02800
- Type IC16MII

Being part of the Russian Navy these small ships have the same level of armament and size that many ships of the Russian Coast Guard.

-----------------------

In the other side I think some types of armament should be only in the hands of the Russian Nayv. I think it would be necessary a transference to the Russian Navy of the following ships of the Russian Coast Guard:

- Project 11351
- Project 1330/13301
- Project 1265
- Project T-4
- Projec5 1176 (in this case the ships are damaged, would be a decommission of the ships from the Russian Coast Guard)

The brave Royal Navy once again saved London from Russian invasion! https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2018/june/01/180601-diamond-escorts-russian-spy-ship

Not actual text from link wrote:Type 45 HMS Diamond fended off the Russian Spy ship Yantar preventing an attack while the Russkie ship Aggressively & extremely Russianly passed through the English Channel on the way back to port after an epic voyage of doing Aggressive Russian Spy things like spending several months Aggressively helping Argentina try to find its sunken sub and doing Russian Spy things in other places like off Syria, Lybia & Egypt.

My point is: why should the russian navy guard harbors and rivers and even the coastline when Coast Guard/Rosgardija/FSB could do it? Transfer the smaller ships (without long-range cruise missiles) and their crews to them. It would save the Navy a lot of money.

hoom wrote:The brave Royal Navy once again saved London from Russian invasion! https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2018/june/01/180601-diamond-escorts-russian-spy-ship

Not actual text from link wrote:Type 45 HMS Diamond fended off the Russian Spy ship Yantar preventing an attack while the Russkie ship Aggressively & extremely Russianly passed through the English Channel on the way back to port after an epic voyage of doing Aggressive Russian Spy things like spending several months Aggressively helping Argentina try to find its sunken sub and doing Russian Spy things in other places like off Syria, Lybia & Egypt.

The british ship is soo "fugly"!

The british ship is soo "fugly"! Suspect

I find they have a certain charm to them, but not conventionally attractive no.
The thing that always gets me is the bridge windows on this generation of Euro-frigates are much bigger than historical, gives the visual impression of the ships being much smaller than they actually are.

More seriously: Yantar has been on a really big mission: If I recall correctly first to Syria via Libya, then Egypt, back to Syria (recovery of Su-33 & Mig-29 or at least the sensitive bits), out through the Suez, some stuff off Iran & in Indian Ocean then was on its way home via Cape of Good Hope when the Argentine sub disappeared, spent something like 4mths trying to help there before crossing back into the Med and was finally on its way home again when the Su-30 crashed off Syria so back there again to recover that.
Possibly had a bit of port time at Sevastopol in the middle there but its a North Sea Fleet ship so has been away from home a very long time.

The big surprise is that the engine of the english ship works.

Hole wrote:The big surprise is that the engine of the english ship works.

It works so well that you can hear it from hundreds of km away with a sonar ...

Hole wrote:My point is: why should the russian navy guard harbors and rivers and even the coastline when Coast Guard/Rosgardija/FSB could do it? Transfer the smaller ships (without long-range cruise missiles) and their crews to them. It would save the Navy a lot of money.

For me the point is perfectly understandable, I also find some degree of redundance. In the refered to the missile, rockets and artillery it is very rare to find in the Russian Coast Guard and other security forces something above man-portable level. It is very rare to find something above MANPADS, MANPATS, grenade launchers and 120mm artillery. Also is very rare to find material with minesweepping capabilities, and material with amphibious capabilities for the delivery of heavy land material (a ship with a door for personel in the front or the rear is not really an amphibious ship). It is very difficult to see weapons of the security forces breaking these limits. Here there is in fact a clear limit for the Russian security forces, including the Russian Coast Guard. The presence of ships with some torpedoes is more habitual instead.

Only a few ships of the Russian security forces, all in the Russian Coast Guard, have armament level and features above this, despite to be small (except the Project 11351), and a transference to the Russian Navy would be good and perfectly possible:

- 2 ships Project 11351
- 5 ships Project 1330/13301
- 1 ship Project 1265
- 3 ships Project T-4
- 2 ships Project 1176 (in this case the ships are damaged, would be a decommission of the ships from the Russian Coast Guard)

In the other side, a good number of patrol auxiliary ships of the Russian Navy have armament that would be perfectly inside the limits of the Russian Coast Guard and in fact do Coast patrol work. These ships are small, but are new (except the Project 1400) and numerous, and a transference from the Russian Navy to the Russian Coast Guard can be more difficult:

- 17 ships Project 21980
- 02 ships Project 1400
- 02 ships Project 12150
- 13 ships Project 03160
- 07 ships Project 02510
- 06 ships Project 02800
- 02 ships Type IC16MII

Today.
In the past russian coast guard ships got torpedo tubes, air defence systems and so on.

Regarding Yantar voyage: I've been doing some research.

2016
July -Olenya Bay (home port)
Aug -Lisbon Portugal
Sept -Canaries (sick crew member rescued to Spain), Aegean, Bosphorus (North)
Oct -Sevastopol, Bosphorus (South), Latakia
Nov -Oman, Off Busheir & Bandar Abbas Iran, Syria Mig-29 recovery
Dec -Limmasol Cyprus, Syria, Pillars of Hercules (West)
2017
Jan -English Channel (North), off Cherburg
March -Syria Su-33 recovery (must be incorrect as seems to have returned to Olenya Bay)
??? returned to Olenya Bay
Aug -Bay of Biscay, Lisbon
Sep -Pillars of Hercules (East), off Benghazi Libya, off Lebanon, Syria fighter spot again, Lebanon again, Bosphorus (North)
Oct -Sevastopol, Novorossyk, Bosphorus (South), Syria/Lebanon, Suez, Seychelles, Mauritius
Nov -Cape Town divert to sub hunt while off Namibia/Angola
Dec -Sub hunt, Buenos Aires, sub hunt
2018
Jan -Buenos Aires
Feb -Montevideo
April -Pillars of Hercules (East), Latakia Su-30 recovery
May -Pillars of Hercules (West)
June -English Channel (North)

Sources: Balancer, Charly015, @steffanwatkins twitter, Covert Shores & various news reports

Seems there was a return to North early 2017 I hadn't previously picked up on so this was 2 separate missions not 1 epic.
Two visits to Sevastopol makes it arguably 3 or 4 but they seem to have been very short stays, maybe picking up spares/specialists?

Yantar crew must have racked up a huge amount of experience (also including their 2015 NA/Carribean mission) but I bet they're really looking forward to the 2nd of the class coming into Service.

Hangouts off Portugal (technically NATO but still friendly enough to allow Russian ships to dock), Libya, Syria, Lebanon/Cyprus, Iran & South Africa indicate primary mission of delousing friendly cables from US bugs rather than attack against Western cables.
Interestingly found dates to the infamous case off Syria of Turkey <-> Cyprus cable, contrary to Western media who implied Yantar cut the cable, it actually arrived after the cable went down, left before it came back online.
Similarly off Iran it arrived after cable problems started, sprinted from Oman to arrive on site.
And when off Lebanon/Cyprus in 2017 after hanging around for a while a Turkish cable ship was dispatched to same location with a new length of cable before Yantar left.

Hole wrote:Today.
In the past russian coast guard ships got torpedo tubes, air defence systems and so on.

It remains, but air defense systems are mostly of the Strela and Igla families, and only the Project 11351 has something above the current man-portable systems. In the refered to the torpedoes, all the ships of the Russian Coast Guard would be under this:

http://russianships.info/eng/intelligence/project_502.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_12412.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warfareboats/project_206.htm (retired)