[Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

0nillie0 wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:
Anyhow ,even before that, the life expectancy of the average TOW operators was several times lower than that of the average Syrian Army tank operator, the unique difference being that the much more frequent demise of the former end unceremoniously in the reality instead of some blurred internet video with improbable music in the background.  

The issue here is the Russian Government is saying T-72 "is enough" and this is not true.. it will not handle a candle to the M1A2 or latest Tanks from Any European nation. It can't penetrate any modern tank and neither can properly survive either a direct hit from any NATO modern tank..  

Do you have any evidence/sources to back up these statements? Links to up to date tests performed?  
Furthermore, do you have any evidence that the gun of the T-14 can penetrate?

If the T-72 is such a horrible tank, then why are armies such as Poland and Czech Republic, who have access to "superior Western MBT's", continue to use and upgrade it for frontline service?
Is everyone wrong but you?

Regardless of all that :
In combined arms warfare, main battle tanks are just a small part of the puzzle.
500 T-14's will not change the outcome of any large scale conflict.
T-72 performs good enough for the current situation. If the situation changes, then we will see what happens. The capability and infrastructure to produce new tanks is there, but this is not war time economy as said.

Poland doesnt want even its PT-91, it wants and buys leopards.Why do you even compare it Russia? Compare Russia to France.

No, Poland doesn't want their T-72 tanks but realized that it's still cheaper and effective to upkeep them at the moment. We seen how well Leopard 2 tanks fared so far, and it isn't pretty.

It was a lot of anti-Sovietic/Russian propaganda impulsed by the US and its armament lobbies in the rejection of some countries of the Sovietic armament.

Many of them now regret early decomissions of material proved capable in recent wars.

AlfaT8 wrote:From what i see, it's 100 tanks by 2020, this is a good number for initial production, 50 tanks a year isn't bad, after 2020 the production rate should be increased to 60 or 70 units a year.
IMO, that would be a very optimal peace time production rate for the long term.

When you need 2300 tanks it is pretty bad. The production rate needs to be 230 per year.

So, how many will likely be build and fielded ? AFAIK when T-90 were still new and Russia got economic crises etc.. the number actually being purchased was around 500. Will Armata reach same amount ?

More than that tho, as we know Armata is a system comprised of the T-14,15 and 16. Purchase of just 1 type would not be enough. I think it would still be wonderful to have 500 T-14, T-16 and T-15's. The T-15 purchase could be increased a little bit more, maybe to partially replace some bulk of Russian personnel carriers (say MT-LB if Kurganets not getting there first)

Kurganets-25 will replace the MT-LB (in the long run).

Armata is supposed to supplement and than replace most heavy tracked vehicles in russian service, from heavy AIFV to engineer vehicles. It will be in production for a long time.

Vladimir79 wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:From what i see, it's 100 tanks by 2020, this is a good number for initial production, 50 tanks a year isn't bad, after 2020 the production rate should be increased to 60 or 70 units a year.
IMO, that would be a very optimal peace time production rate for the long term.

When you need 2300 tanks it is pretty bad.  The production rate needs to be 230 per year.

What make you think the production of 2300 tanks (a number coincident with the current active fleet of T-72) would be limited to 10 years? There is nothing in support of this number. 230 per year is out of touch.

It is not good to create false expectations. Some people use it to create later discontent when the real numbers come. Taking into account that the production of every big product takes 2-3 years to reach full prodcution, an order of 100 for the 2 initial years of serial production (approximately 30+70) is logical and is in agreement with the stable continuous production of tanks projected for the long term.

Soviet/Russian tanks tend to enter production with some delay. T-54 was first produced in 1947, entered truly mass production in 1950-1. Same with T-64

Trial phase does not end until 2020 so any discussion about numbers before that is pointless

Yes they do need the upgrade current ones but they also need to start buying new model

This situation looks like another Rogizin-style stupidity only from mouth of different hack, that Borisov clown is trying hard to out-Rogozin Trampoline Man himself

Wait until 2020 is my approach here

Any plans on uograding the Armata to 152 mm gun? Way easier to do thst with an unmanned turret. Since Germany is planning a 130 mm gun for Leo 2, 152 mm should be next step.

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Any plans on uograding the Armata to 152 mm gun? Way easier to do thst with an unmanned turret. Since Germany is planning a 130 mm gun for Leo 2, 152 mm should be next step.

Originally it was supposed to be default gun and platform is designed around it. Should they want to they can just swap current one.

Thing is that it's redundant because there is nothing in existence that requires 152mm gun, current one is more than enough to handle anything they throw at it.

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Any plans on uograding the Armata to 152 mm gun? Way easier to do thst with an unmanned turret. Since Germany is planning a 130 mm gun for Leo 2, 152 mm should be next step.

Russia has the weapon for it, and is checking the option, as reported. This is a clear step coming. Better firepower + better range.

eehnie wrote:

What make you think the production of 2300 tanks (a number coincident with the current active fleet of T-72) would be limited to 10 years? There is nothing in support of this number. 230 per year is out of touch.

It is not good to create false expectations. Some people use it to create later discontent when the real numbers come. Taking into account that the production of every big product takes 2-3 years to reach full prodcution, an order of 100 for the 2 initial years of serial production (approximately 30+70) is logical and is in agreement with the stable continuous production of tanks projected for the long term.

At the current production rate it would take 26 years to fill the need, as soon as the Franco-German collab comes up with their next tank T-14 will already be obsolete.

Vladimir79 wrote:......
At the current production rate it would take 26 years to fill the need, as soon as the Franco-German collab comes up with their next tank T-14 will already be obsolete.

While usually I appreciate your stone cold realism I do have to disagree on this one:

1) There is no way they will keep current pace of production. It will speed up. It always does (remember Su-34?). No way it will take 26 years.

2) Also, no way it would be obsolete even after 26 years no matter what France/Germany come up with. Example: M1 Abrams has been in service for 38 years and it's nowhere near obsolete. It's not even out of fashion let alone obsolete. Not even close.

These are tanks, they last.

Also, whole thing was about unifying platforms not just building new tank. MBT, IFV, SPG, etc all in one package... you know what I mean.

PapaDragon wrote:

While usually I appreciate your stone cold realism I do have to disagree on this one:

1) There is no way they will keep current pace of production. It will speed up. It always does (remember Su-34?). No way it will take 26 years.

2) Also, no way it would be obsolete even after 26 years no matter what France/Germany come up with. Example: M1 Abrams has been in service for 38 years and it's nowhere near obsolete. It's not even out of fashion let alone obsolete. Not even close.

These are tanks, they last.

Also, whole thing was about unifying platforms not just building new tank. MBT, IFV, SPG, etc all in one package... you know what I mean.

T-14 is what levels the playing field with Western tanks, it doesn't surpass in enough areas to counter the next generation of their tanks. We finally have the chance to achieve parity with NATO if we can get the T-14 built in large enough numbers in the next 10 years. Even the American military strategists admit that the T-14 is on parity with the latest M1 batch which means there will be calls for a new tank design to replace it. The only reason they didn't do it before was because they didn't fear our tanks, now they do.

Vladimir79 wrote:........
T-14 is what levels the playing field with Western tanks, it doesn't surpass in enough areas to counter the next generation of their tanks.  We finally have the chance to achieve parity with NATO if we can get the T-14 built in large enough numbers in the next 10 years.  Even the American military strategists admit that the T-14 is on parity with the latest M1 batch which means there will be calls for a new tank design to replace it.  The only reason they didn't do it before was because they didn't fear our tanks, now they do.

What next big thing they can add in new tank?

Armored capsule? Already in T-14. Bigger gun? Already on the shelf waiting production order. New optics? That stuff always gets upgraded, no need to wait new tank.

Unless they install particle cannon or something I doubt it will be mind-blowing.

And again: unified platform, not just tank.

Besides, 10 years is enough time to get decent numbers. They will get them. (That is unless whole thing gets Rogozin'd/Borisov'd along the way)

PapaDragon wrote:

What next big thing they can add in new tank?

Armored capsule? Already in T-14. Bigger gun? Already on the shelf waiting production order. New optics? That stuff always gets upgraded, no need to wait new tank.

Unless they install particle cannon or something I doubt it will be mind-blowing.

And again: unified platform, not just tank.

Besides, 10 years is enough time to get decent numbers. They will get them. (That is unless whole thing gets Rogozin'd/Borisov'd along the way)

The next big development for tanks will be the addition of EM railguns. It can slice through more armour than can be physically added and unstoppable by APS or ERA.

Vladimir79 wrote:........
The next big development for tanks will be the addition of EM railguns.  It can slice through more armour than can be physically added and unstoppable by APS or ERA.  

Fair enough, but in that case just remove current main gun from T-14 and install railgun (after designing one of course)

Rest of it is fine....

Respectfully:
Armata is not on level with Western tanks but decades ahead just by concept. And the reason the West didn't replace their tanks is that they know there will be no conventional war with Russia unless they want, and they don't want because they have no means for wining it. So they keep updating them, putting layer after layer on top of them until they cannot move in hopes of not getting smashed by ATGMs in some foreign country where they play doing war. BTW, if Russia is to be threatened by new generation of Franco-German tank then you can rest relaxed until 2050 at least

Vladimir79 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

What make you think the production of 2300 tanks (a number coincident with the current active fleet of T-72) would be limited to 10 years? There is nothing in support of this number. 230 per year is out of touch.

It is not good to create false expectations. Some people use it to create later discontent when the real numbers come. Taking into account that the production of every big product takes 2-3 years to reach full prodcution, an order of 100 for the 2 initial years of serial production (approximately 30+70) is logical and is in agreement with the stable continuous production of tanks projected for the long term.

At the current production rate it would take 26 years to fill the need, as soon as the Franco-German collab comes up with their next tank T-14 will already be obsolete.

25 years of serial production would be a natural period of time to produce T-14 tanks. See the case of the T-90. And after 25 years of serial production for Russia, the production of the tank of the next generation should begin. The question is how many T-14 tanks will be produced in this time. At 230 tanks per year it would mean 5750 tanks produced. I do not think this is a realistic amount for Russia in peace time.

Also I do not think this is a right use of the word obsolete. This is not the case. France and Germany will have hard time surpassing the combination of features of the T-14 (with 152mm weapon). And even achieving it, the new tank will not be instantly deployed. The production will not be faster than in the case of the T-14.

Vladimir79 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

While usually I appreciate your stone cold realism I do have to disagree on this one:

1) There is no way they will keep current pace of production. It will speed up. It always does (remember Su-34?). No way it will take 26 years.

2) Also, no way it would be obsolete even after 26 years no matter what France/Germany come up with. Example: M1 Abrams has been in service for 38 years and it's nowhere near obsolete. It's not even out of fashion let alone obsolete. Not even close.

These are tanks, they last.

Also, whole thing was about unifying platforms not just building new tank. MBT, IFV, SPG, etc all in one package... you know what I mean.

T-14 is what levels the playing field with Western tanks, it doesn't surpass in enough areas to counter the next generation of their tanks.  We finally have the chance to achieve parity with NATO if we can get the T-14 built in large enough numbers in the next 10 years.  Even the American military strategists admit that the T-14 is on parity with the latest M1 batch which means there will be calls for a new tank design to replace it.  The only reason they didn't do it before was because they didn't fear our tanks, now they do.

We saw too many Abrams, Leopard 2 and Leclercs burning in Iraq, Syria and Yemen, to realizae that their performance is not stronger than the performance of the T-90. At this point, the T-90 is the winner.

Reading you, it is obvious that you have a high concept of the European industry, but you are wrong if you think that the European military industry is as strong as the European civil transport vehicle industry (sea, land and air). The European military industry has been killed by the US industry apetite and NATO impositions of US armament. Today the European military industry only can keep a modern level on several items, not many, but the Russian military industry is fairly stronger and better in most of the areas.

After losing serveral wars, the US, Israel and other Western powers are clearly panicking now. But Russia only needs to follow its way. To finish the development of the new generation of armament by the end of 2025, until to produce at least the fist unit of every new design, something factible if Russia avoids redundancies. And to afford serial productions in affordable amounts to avoid problems in an environment of economic war.

Some pro-NATO elements are spreding discontent with the suposedly too low amounts of armament ordered in serial production contracts. The same if we talk about combat ships, about combat aircrafts, about combat armoured vehicles, or even about auxiliary vehicles for sea, land and air. They want bigger orders in order to cause financial problems to Russia in their economic war attacks. It is not difficult to detect them. They are not being succesful. Also on this Russia is aheadthe situation.

Have to agree eehnie on that, the best favour Russia could do to the West would be to bankrupt itself out of an unjustified panic and on top of that give ammo to the fellows claiming that the Russians are coming

Coherently, Putin's answer to the increasing beating of war drums was... to reduce the military budget

LMFS wrote:the best favour Russia could do to the West would be to bankrupt itself  

Thats actually not completely accurate...
That will be a gift for sure , but not the biggest one...
The Biggest gift that Putin can give the American empire .. is to NOT counter ,their influence in the world (What Putin is doing) In the business that really matters and to not do anything to defeat it. What Putin is doing will NOT defeat the American empire. Russia ending the use of dollars will NOT defeat the american empire ,it will be just a minor inconvenience at best but nothing more.. Russia building Hypersonic missiles, (even though  they are very important) will not end the American Empire. Russia building more powerful nukes will not end the American empire. Russia hosting an olympic every year ,and winning all the medals will not end the American empire. Russia needs to counter American Influence in the world FIRST. and to be more precise ... Russia needs to counter the influence Americans have over Europe.. Why Europe and not Latin America or Africa or Middle east or Canada or Australia.. why Europe is so important for Russia to influence?  Because Europe ,the european union ,if you look at the map ,is next to Russia borders..and they are the most developed nations and world biggest economy. So the day Russia manage to Influence Europe way more than Americans do it.. it will be the day NATO will cease to exist and Europe will form a new world order with Russia.. understand?  

So the best thing Putin can do to Americans.. is to continue doing what is doing.. projecting weakness and insecurity and worst of all ,to continue sponsoring the American empire. So isn't this a contradiction ? Putin and lavrov complains about the unfair american empire.. then why the hell Putin follows it ?    Why he don't create his own System... AND that is shaped specifically to Attract Europe to the Russian orbit.  

The best gift that Putin can give to the Americans Empire.. is to NOT FIGHT IT.. and be IDDLE , expecting that their hypersonic missiles and nukes will keep Americans quiet from attacking with their  weapons Russia ...
[u] BUT TOTALLY IGNORING the business that Americans use ,to LEAD the world into the future .. understand?
He is fighting the american empire in the most retarded way.. not doing it correctly.. He needs to counter American influence in the world ... PERIOD. specially the influence they have with Europe. and until the moron start doing that ,he will continue complaining about how unfair is the system they follow. If you don't like a system ,then why not create your own ???  Like i said before.. All Putin have been doing since he came to Power.. in 2000.. was to develop a powerful army.. and turn Russia into the saudi arabia of Asia.. understand? and hope ,that Americans who wants to dominate the world..  will allow Russia to make a lot of money in peace..  ? understand what is Putin Problem?  he is not Facing his problems..  what putin does is like if someone slap your face and he turns the other cheek..the idiot needs to FIGHT back.. period.  and there are 2 ways Russia can fight back americans..

1)Declare war against US , and drops a lot of nukes in US in a surprise Attack ,decapitating all its political elite.

or

2)Counter the TOP Most Influential Business that Americans use to Influence Europe young generations and adults too..

The #1 options will not work well ,because many millions of innocent people will be wiped...
The #2 option is perfect.. is a peaceful war.. where only American Top business defeated..

But Putin is doing neither one... he just stand there iddle.. when americans slap his face ,again and again and again and all he does is complain ,complain and complain.. is quite embarrassing. He needs to be fired honestly..
from Power.. not for not being patriotic.. because he is.. not doing anything to counter the American Empire..
waiting for americans to change their hearts.. with Russia ,for lecturing Americans about morals and values ,
(what putin is doing ) is Completely idiotic and moronic and make me want to slap his face... Telling american business to please help him ,restore relations with Americans ,is treason.. this will be worth of impeachment.. because his weakness encourage Americans to beat Russia more.. understand?  So he needs to be sacked.. or else ,people around him , convince him.. that his strategy against US empire will not work. and that no longer Russia can remain idle and needs to fight back.. either with #1 option or #2 option... and we all agree ,a nuclear war is not really necessary at all.  So Russia needs to counter American most popular business, to remove their influence over Europe.. adults and young generations..  Giving away pensions to grandmas -veterans from world war 2 in baltics and Israel, giving away money that way..is an example of how fucking clueless is Putin ,what he is doing.
Olympics is only a temporary distraction.. increasing Russia tourism.. while is needed ,is not what will ,stop the american empire understand? So Russia needs to show the world.. Specially the most developed nations.. like Europe, Japan, South korea and Taiwan..that they dont need to follow the American empire system. Because Russia have alternative to it...   American can do sanctions ,because US have very important business that can't be replaced by anything else understand???

So Russia needs to create , a new Internet , a new Amazon (or join chinesse one alibaba) , Create a competition for both INTEL and APPLE.. (it could be done with CHINA help) and create and a VERY STRONG and VERY AMBITIOUS space program ,and offcourse a new banking system with visa/mastercard alternative.. at least here in this latest Russia is doing something.. with BRICS and payment national card.

So Putin needs to stop distracting Russia in temporary and meaningless things like Victory Parades and Olympics and Sports and need to invest in creating in Russia and High Tech Industrial revolution.. Computers not only for Russians ,but to replace INTEL and MICROSOFT business. understand? and it will be a bonus ,an alternative to Hollywood and American Gaming industry.. that makes more money ,that Russia arms industry.. and best of all influence A LOT young generations..and adults .  Russia arms industry made $13 billions a year..  American game industry? $25 billion a year..

Newzoo: Games market expected to hit $180.1 billion in revenues in 2021



all american entertainment industry combined how much it makes???

is expected that US entertainment industry on a global scale will reach $2 Trillions dollars by 2020..

https://www.statista.com/statistics/237769/value-of-the-us-entertainment-and-media-market/

So this is not even competition.. but an slaughter.  

Can Americans sanction the playstation 4 ?  there will be a revolution in America of hundred of millions people in the streets.. if the US congress banned Sony products from america. This  IS what Putin don't understand.. How to counter american Influence in the world.. JAPAN is doing a really good dam well job , in competition with US business... is destroying american automobile industry.. and Japan only have half of the population of russia.
and dont have the energy resources Russia have... or low debt. South korea is also doing a really dam good job countering apple..  but since they are allies ,is not a problem for US.. and Russia is doing nothing..  


McCain and the most haters in US politics wanted to sanction Russia space program.. but he could not do it..
because Pentagon depends on it..and for the first time in history.. Americans citizens protested about it.. American love space.. Europeans loves space.. then why the fuck Putin cut in half Russia space program budget ?    and then increase significatively the spending in Super trains  to China, and in Olympics?      Putin is simply disconnected from reality. Nobody give a dam ,anymore about Russia sports or Olympics. is over.. but everyone in the west.. still find great Russia very limited space program.. and likes to follow Soyuz launches all the time..
So this is a HUGE opportunity in Russia space program ,that Putin don't take advantage of it..  

Putin waste Russia budget in distractions , that do not counter the American BUSINESS EMPIRE.
And not counter American Influence in the world..allowing them to Project a world leadership..Putin is quite good in diplomacy.. credit to him for that... but diplomacy will not be needed at all. .had Russia was very influential nation.
If Russia was very influential nation to young generation and adults.. Ukrainians will be protesting to integrate Russia and NOT to split from it.. This is what the Moron in charge of Russia don't understand.. he gave very generous gass discounts to ukraine for decades ,worth of $200 billions.. savings.. and this build ZERO influence with the people who wanted to be closer to the west, in  the revolutions in Kiev.

Russia problems ,is poor influence with Europe and US too.. Had Russia was landing today in Moon and MArs with humans for real. . i guarantee you..the entire world will be amazed ,celebrating and Americans EMBARRASSED
and this will encourage NO ONE TO FOLLOW AMERICAN SANCTIONS AND JOIN RUSSIA... this is because Nations and people follow LEADERS... and no one follows rejected nations..

And then Americans admit defeat in the RACE FOR WORLD LEADERSHIP . and will change only then ,
and will seek  CLOSER RELATIONS with Russia for first time.. because they will benefit enormously in cooperation with Russia in space..   So yes is very important that Russia do not bankrupt its economy..and have a balanced budget.. but also is EXTREMELY important that Russia do not waste the limited money they have... in distractions and meaningless things ,like Sports , like Victory parades or building high speed trains to china ,thinking that Tourism will solve Russia economic problems . no they not. .if Russia focus in Tourism.. Americans will focus in terrorism to attack those tourist attractions.. so all that money invested will be wasted.. Russia focus in agriculture and Americans promotes Agriculture at Russia borders.. in exactly the same things Russia produce... So US do have an strategy to destroy Russia economy.. Putin don't have any strategy to change anything.. if ignore American leadership in the world in Business and don't counter it.

Putin complains ALL THE TIME.. that nobody takes Russia seriously... anyone remembers the hypersonic conference.. when Putin told " You don't listened us.. now you will listen ".. guess what? they still don't listen..      people someone needs to explain the clueless President.. that Respect from bully nations can only be earned with INFLUENCE AND LEADERSHIP. that Russia don't have over americans or europe. Russia needs powerful nukes and hypersonic weapons, why? to counter Russia lack of leadership in Europe and America.. lack of influence with them.. if Russia was influential with the west.. it will have NO SANCTIONS at all.. since the west will want to be close with Russia as equals.  Russia needs to increase the budget of its space program as much as possible ,300% increase or more. and cut the budget in every other place.. to compensate and keep budget balanced.. including social aid.. victory parades ,totally cut funding in sports .. let it be private. Reduce the size of Government..let private business take care of agriculture in russia and privatize Gazprom. with the money Russia get in the sale will be enough to fund a real ambitious space program and a high tech /IT big business revolution.
Putin needs to invest heavily in future looking business aimed to counter US influence in the world..

Soviet Union understood better what Leadership is...and contrary to Russia today.. they fought the American empire.. Putin IS NOT DOING THAT.. this is because they had a very ambitious space program..the problem for soviets is ,that they did not had a balanced budget.. And they fall in the trap ,set by Americans to a weapons race..
that cost Soviets a lot of money.. and ended banckrupt them.. Building too much warships ,nukes and afganistan war,bankrupt Russia economy.. soviets neither developed a strong media and entertainment.. So the result was American culture ,was very popular and was more attractive that soviet parades..

You could collapse the American dollar tomorrow and it will do damage ,but US companies influence will not end..
thats the point.. what Putin needs to kill is not the US dollar.. (since they can create another currency) but US influence in the world.. thats it.. Once you kill US influence , by creating better business.. is GAME OVER.. for the american empire. Since there will be no need anymore to trade with US business , if they could get what they want somewhere else and  that is better. This is why is so Important that Russia creates a NEW Internet and counter the most popular business of America. those that can't replaced today and everyone really need.

The best gift Putin can give to the Americans is to NOT DO ANYTHING to counter American influence in the world..
and is AMerican most praised business ,that US feel more proud ,the ones that Russia needs to counter.. but Putin do almost nothing about it. So indeed this is a big gift.. an Empire that can slap the face of Russia all it wants ,damage its economy and Russia do nothing about it..

From what I see Putin's Russia is doing all that, only at the pace which is possible. It is only a pity reality differs from dreams and countries DO have severe limitations of all kind, especially when they have been almost erased some years before like in the case of Russia. Conversely, hegemonic countries do EVERYTHING possible to remain so and keep rivals under their boot, and they have every resource and means to do it, apart from the slow internal rot that nobody can defeat. 

In essence, is not Putin not wanting but actually about forces of history slowly developing. Empires come and go irrespective of the illusions of power of their rulers and it does not help to blame the government for everything. Russia does not have the power to change the situation in a few years, period.