[Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

franco wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
How many tanks are currently in service with Russian Military?

~2700 active in confirmed units and in units being formed another ~900.

Alright let's say that 500 will be Arctic T-80. That leaves is with roughly 3000 tanks in inventory.

You don't need Armata for Central Asia and Pacific so let's say that you need ~1000 T-14s to pad Western perimeter (1000 old ones will be decommissioned/sold/in reserve)

One decade should be reasonable timeframe for purchase. That would mean that they would need to hit production rate of 100 tanks per year and let's give them another 5 years for necessary T-15 IFVs and T-16 engineering vehicles to complete heavy brigades.

So in 15 years​ they should have enough to cover angle that matters (West), legacy tanks can handle Central and Eastern section.

This would make sense.

Question is can they reach rate of 100 vehicles per year over decade and a half and can they do it without busting up budget?

Assuming the Armata's price stays where it is let's say they do produce 100 a year for the next 15 years.

100 Armata a year at 3.7M comes out to about three hundred seventy million dollars a year so near half a billion. That's just for the tanks this doesn't account for the other costs.

now that number times 15 comes out to five billion five hundred fifty million dollars

Current Russian defense budget is about 70 billion per year this could go up or down of course but thats the current one.

You times that by 15 and that's like one Trillion dollars total in the next 15 years.

so yes they can going by math the question is will they.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:well 57mm is great gun   but dont underestimate newest 40mm guns in UK/France. As antitank can be comparable but HE is by definition better for 57mm.

Am I being too enthusiastic about it?

Weight of 40 mm ammo is nowhere close to that of 57 mm and hence would be surprised if they have comparable performance as anti tank means. For AA the diameter for guidance and fuze makes also a big difference although fire rate is much slower

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

franco wrote:

walle83 wrote:Im not being a troll, im just looking at the situation in a surber way.
Im sure the budget is in the way some of u People r refering to. But when prestige projects like su-57 and Armata is being more or less cut back to nothing, something is terrible wrong.

The US is waging an extensive economic war on Russia. Russia is protecting it's economy by not spending more then it can afford while at the same time building up it's military strength. Check out those apples...

@walle83 precisely as Franco explained.

Just my 2 kopecks:  neither Su-57 not Armata is cancelled but introduction slowed down. Why? overspending is one (BTW Russian external debt is something now like 47 bln $) show me how many  EU countries has less.?

France: ~ 500 €
UK:  ~700 BLN €

And neither UK nor France are neither  started 5gen fighter nor new gen of tanks programmes. They  might appear (or  not) in 2040s. Why Russia is to field more advanced weaponry since is not going to attack anybody? It i "peaceful friendly" West policy.

Well thats not really true is it. The UK has been involed with the JSF development and most other NATO countries in Europe are buying the F-35, so why spend alot of money on a 5gen aircraft when u just can buy the finished product.
And im saying the same thing as u do, large prestige projects in Russia is being pushed back and orders are being reduced to basicly nothing. And yes this is becouse of the current economical situation in Russia.
And by saying that Russia is spending on already existing products like the Su-30 and T-90 insted, well lets just see how many new orders on those products that will come in the next years, im gessing not so much.

if its because of economics, can you show us how bad russia's economics is?

I can give you numbers.  Can you do the same?

You know Walle, if you are going to lie to us and make up stories as to what is the cause, can you do it somewhere else, were we do not have a thread regarding Russia's economy and with factual numbers with sources?

http://tass.com/economy/1016971

Russia expects budget surplus of 1.5-2% of GDP and 1.8-2% GDP growth in 2018

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/business/russian-budget-surplus-amounted-to-25-of-gd-409734.html

Russian Budget Surplus Amounted To 2.5% Of GDP In January-July - Finance Ministry

http://tass.com/economy/1011921

If 98.22 trillion rubles for 2018 while 2016 was less around 84T Rubles, shows growth in revenue.

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:well 57mm is great gun   but dont underestimate newest 40mm guns in UK/France. As antitank can be comparable but HE is by definition better for 57mm.

Am I being to enthusiastic about it?

Weight of 40 mm ammo is nowhere close to that of 57 mm and hence would be surprised if they have comparable performance as anti tank means. For AA the diameter for guidance and fuze makes also a big difference although fire rate is much slower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA_International

RoF 180-200 rds/min
Muzzle velocity 1000 m/s HE-Airburst-T

1640 m/s APFSDS-T
Cartridge 40×255MM Case Telescoped
Cartridge weight 2.2kg（HE-Airburst-T）
1.8kg（APFSDS-T）


https://www.burevestnik.com/products_engl/au220m.html

Burevestnik 57mm

RoF 80 rds/min

Muzzle velocity 1020 m/s
Cartridge weightv 2,8 kg


kinetic energy is clearly higher in case of 40mm but 57mm data is for old round. Im sure new rounds were developed. ZiS-2 57mm ATgut penetration was up to 190mm from 100meters

walle83 wrote:Well thats not really true is it. The UK has been involed with the JSF development and most other NATO countries in Europe are buying the F-35, so why spend alot of money on a 5gen aircraft when u just can buy the finished product.

'So you believe you are better off without technology because somebody is going to sell you latest developments? not monkey versions? especially US :D:D real world somehow doesn't sustain your hypothesis so far. Perhaps in the future?


The truth is simple. Neither UK nr other EU stated were not capable to build this with own inflated arms programmes. UK or France spend similar amounts to defense as Russia. And still are lagging in aerospace tech.

BTW F-35 doesn't exist yet after sucking about trillion in expenditures.

And im saying the same thing as u do, large prestige projects in Russia is being pushed back and orders are being reduced to basicly nothing. And yes this is becouse of the current economical situation in Russia.

A) Economy

situation Which is? number, parameters?

I have listed external debts of UK and France, bu order of magnitude higher then Russia



B) Orders to nothing.

What is reduced to nothing to you? best is to be number driven. Not press releases ok?


UK will buy only 48 F-35 till 2025 and you say they dont slash ? and Russia 12 ordered (as first batch not all series) delivery till end 2019. So K 6 per year Russia 12 and Russia is reducing to none? Who told you till 2025 there will be not 100 PAK FAs?

And if next year they order new batch?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/14/lockheed_f35_uk_order_numbers/


France? oh no France none ?! with their rich economies and no slashing?

And by saying that Russia is spending on already existing products like the Su-30 and T-90 insted, well lets just see how many new orders on those products that will come in the next years, im gessing not so much.

like 300-500 of tanks and 100-200 f fighters?

Again compare to those "model economies" France none, UK 48? tanks only after 2030 . If no delays. Somehow dont follow your logic. What I am missing here?

You forgot to mention the tanks (T-80, T-90, a few more T-72) that will be updated and the other planes (Su-30,-34,-35, MiG-35) that are already ordered, Gunship.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:well 57mm is great gun   but dont underestimate newest 40mm guns in UK/France. As antitank can be comparable but HE is by definition better for 57mm.

Am I being to enthusiastic about it?

Weight of 40 mm ammo is nowhere close to that of 57 mm and hence would be surprised if they have comparable performance as anti tank means. For AA the diameter for guidance and fuze makes also a big difference although fire rate is much slower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA_International

RoF                           180-200 rds/min
Muzzle velocity         1000 m/s HE-Airburst-T

                                1640 m/s APFSDS-T
Cartridge                    40×255MM Case Telescoped
Cartridge weight 2.2kg（HE-Airburst-T）
                                1.8kg（APFSDS-T）


https://www.burevestnik.com/products_engl/au220m.html

Burevestnik  57mm

RoF                          80 rds/min

Muzzle velocity          1020 m/s
Cartridge weightv      2,8 kg


kinetic energy is  clearly higher in case of 40mm but 57mm data is for old round. Im sure new rounds were developed. ZiS-2 57mm ATgut penetration was up to 190mm from 100meters

Nice, but where is the APFSDS round for the 57 mm cannon? We are a bit comparing pears and apples...

As far as I know 40 mm rounds do not reach 190 mm. Not 100% sure and of course also conditions and penetration criteria should be checked.

Thing is, I haven't found much info on the new ammo for the 57 mm cannon at all

miketheterrible wrote:if its because of economics, can you show us how bad russia's economics is?

I can give you numbers.  Can you do the same?

You know Walle, if you are going to lie to us and make up stories as to what is the cause, can you do it somewhere else, were we do not have a thread regarding Russia's economy and with factual numbers with sources?

http://tass.com/economy/1016971

Russia expects budget surplus of 1.5-2% of GDP and 1.8-2% GDP growth in 2018

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/business/russian-budget-surplus-amounted-to-25-of-gd-409734.html

Russian Budget Surplus Amounted To 2.5% Of GDP In January-July - Finance Ministry

http://tass.com/economy/1011921

If 98.22 trillion rubles for 2018 while 2016 was less around 84T Rubles, shows growth in revenue.

So what u think that reducing large orders has nothing to do with lack of cash? What planet are u living on. First the russian gouverment was to buy about 200 PAK-FA, then is was down to ~150 back in 2010 with the first fighters to be deliverd by 2016. Then in 2016 is was down to 55 planes by 2020, now its 12...with no further plans for mass production. Same with the Armata, orders went from ~2.500 units to 100. And the reason that has been given for this? Not enough money/ to expensive.
And u can show of how many surplus links u want, the fact is that russian defence is feeling the economic pressure from the west and its starting to have real consequences.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

walle83 wrote:Well thats not really true is it. The UK has been involed with the JSF development and most other NATO countries in Europe are buying the F-35, so why spend alot of money on a 5gen aircraft when u just can buy the finished product.

'So you believe you are better off without technology because somebody is going to sell you latest developments? not monkey versions? especially US :D:D real world somehow doesn't sustain your hypothesis so far. Perhaps in the future?


The truth is simple. Neither  UK nr other EU stated were not capable to build this with own inflated arms programmes. UK or France spend similar amounts to defense as Russia. And still are lagging in aerospace tech.

BTW  F-35 doesn't exist yet after sucking about trillion in expenditures.      

And im saying the same thing as u do, large prestige projects in Russia is being pushed back and orders are being reduced to basicly nothing. And yes this is becouse of the current economical situation in Russia.

A) Economy

situation Which is? number, parameters?

I have listed external debts of UK and France,  bu order of magnitude higher then Russia



B) Orders to nothing.

What is reduced to nothing to you? best is to be number driven. Not press releases ok?


UK will buy only 48 F-35 till 2025 and you say they dont slash ? and Russia  12 ordered (as first batch not all series) delivery till end  2019. So K 6 per year Russia 12 and Russia is reducing to none? Who told you till 2025 there will be not 100 PAK FAs?

And if next year they order new batch?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/14/lockheed_f35_uk_order_numbers/


France? oh no France none ?! with their rich economies and no slashing?

And by saying that Russia is spending on already existing products like the Su-30 and T-90 insted, well lets just see how many new orders on those products that will come in the next years, im gessing not so much.

like 300-500 of tanks and 100-200 f fighters?

Again compare to those "model economies" France none, UK 48? tanks only after 2030 . If no delays.  Somehow dont follow your logic. What I am missing here?

I think u r confusing the US with Russia when it comes to sharing technology

As for the European countries not developing 5th generation aircrafts, well as it stand the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen E is enough to meet any russian threat now or in the near future. Than add the F-35 to this.

F-35 not finished? What I read the F-35 is in use and is attacking with great success down in Israel. Accourding to wikipedia about 300 planes has so far been built.

I have no idea how the european economies are standing against the Russian, u brought that up not me. I do know that the total Russian economy is very small if u compare it to countries in europe. Like twice the size of the Italian or something?

As for numbers of F-35 orderd by the UK, i have no idea, again im talking about Russia. Although i would not be suprised, the UK has a history of changing its military priorites ovre and over again.

Have a nice day!

UK plans for a total of 135 F-35B for the record

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:well 57mm is great gun   but dont underestimate newest 40mm guns in UK/France. As antitank can be comparable but HE is by definition better for 57mm.

Am I being to enthusiastic about it?

Weight of 40 mm ammo is nowhere close to that of 57 mm and hence would be surprised if they have comparable performance as anti tank means. For AA the diameter for guidance and fuze makes also a big difference although fire rate is much slower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA_International

RoF                           180-200 rds/min
Muzzle velocity         1000 m/s HE-Airburst-T

                                1640 m/s APFSDS-T
Cartridge                    40×255MM Case Telescoped
Cartridge weight 2.2kg（HE-Airburst-T）
                                1.8kg（APFSDS-T）


https://www.burevestnik.com/products_engl/au220m.html

Burevestnik  57mm

RoF                          80 rds/min

Muzzle velocity          1020 m/s
Cartridge weightv      2,8 kg


kinetic energy is  clearly higher in case of 40mm but 57mm data is for old round. Im sure new rounds were developed. ZiS-2 57mm ATgut penetration was up to 190mm from 100meters

Nice, but where is the APFSDS round for the 57 mm cannon? We are a bit comparing pears and apples...

As far as I know 40 mm rounds do not reach 190 mm. Not 100% sure and of course also conditions and penetration criteria should be checked.

Thing is, I haven't found much info on the new ammo for the 57 mm cannon at all

That Burevestnik gun is based on the ancient S-60 AA gun. That`s nothing bad, because that gun has excellent ballistics! What is needed, is new ammunition. BTW, 57mm gun is rifled, so, as all dedicated tank and AT guns in USSR/Russia in the last 50 years  are smoothbore, the main role of such armoured vehicles will not be tank kill, but rather general purpose, anti-helicopter, atgm nest suppression, anti DZOT, etc.
Also, above is mentioned "cartridge weight". and I think that for 40mm gun it is the weight of the whole cartridge, not the shell itself, for the case is much shorter than that of 40mm Bofors, for instance. For 57mm gun, 2,8kg is the weight of shell itself.

New ammunition is already developed. In the video section is a film about the new gun which showed it.

By the way, Russia isn´t a western country. The russian armed forces never order a quadrillion planes or tanks or whatever to please the MIC. They always order what they can use. The Su-57 needs pilots and technicians, the first 12 planes are there to qualify them.

The T-14 will be build in small numbers (50 - 100 units a year), because for the next years the modernisation of T-80´s and T-90´s makes more sense.

walle83 wrote:
As for the European countries not developing 5th generation aircrafts, well as it stand the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen E is enough to meet any russian threat now or in the near future. Than add the F-35 to this.

To counter the "Russian threat" they could as well stay at home watching TV. The Barbarians in the East are busy with their lives and are not planning to roll their tanks all the way to Lisbon any time soon      

Hole wrote:....
The T-14 will be build in small numbers (50 - 100 units a year), because for the next years the modernisation of T-80´s and T-90´s makes more sense.

100 T-14s per year is not small number, it's perfectly decent number.

They go with 100 Armatas for 10 years and it will be smooth sailing.

PapaDragon wrote:

Hole wrote:....
The T-14 will be build in small numbers (50 - 100 units a year), because for the next years the modernisation of T-80´s and T-90´s makes more sense.

100 T-14s per year is not small number, it's perfectly decent number.

They go with 100 Armatas for 10 years and it will be smooth sailing.

Overall tank production of new T-90 until recent, as well as modernisation od T-72/80 is not much over 100 units a year, anyway. The total number of active 1st line MBTs in Russia makes only a fraction of that of the USSR in its Heyday, but it is again much more than USA has now (the last new M1A2 was produced somewhere in 1993), and certainly many times more that exists as active tank force between Vistula (Wisla, Weichsel) and Lisabon. Czechia and Hungary has already liquidated its tank forces, Bundeswehr has no more than, say, 300 ready first line Leo-2, France is somewhere there also, etc.
With Armata MBT completing development, Russia will have totally new generation MBT ready for production at any moment if the need arise. There are still no precise information whether Armata is capable to make breakthrough worth calling it "dreadnought revolution" in tank making, but it is first and only new idea trying to end stalemate in tank development.

walle83 wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:if its because of economics, can you show us how bad russia's economics is?

I can give you numbers.  Can you do the same?

You know Walle, if you are going to lie to us and make up stories as to what is the cause, can you do it somewhere else, were we do not have a thread regarding Russia's economy and with factual numbers with sources?

http://tass.com/economy/1016971

Russia expects budget surplus of 1.5-2% of GDP and 1.8-2% GDP growth in 2018

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/business/russian-budget-surplus-amounted-to-25-of-gd-409734.html

Russian Budget Surplus Amounted To 2.5% Of GDP In January-July - Finance Ministry

http://tass.com/economy/1011921

If 98.22 trillion rubles for 2018 while 2016 was less around 84T Rubles, shows growth in revenue.

So what u think that reducing large orders has nothing to do with lack of cash? What planet are u living on. First the russian gouverment was to buy about 200 PAK-FA, then is was down to ~150 back in 2010 with the first fighters to be deliverd by 2016. Then in 2016 is was down to 55 planes by 2020, now its 12...with no further plans for mass production. Same with the Armata, orders went from ~2.500 units to 100. And the reason that has been given for this? Not enough money/ to expensive.
And u can show of how many surplus links u want, the fact is that russian defence is feeling the economic pressure from the west and its starting to have real consequences.

You don't know how economics work, or how the defense budget works, yet you are giving your answer as to what it is based on an assumption?

Anyway, defense budget is set at 2.75T Rubles this year, which was stipulated last year and approved in April of this year. So figure it out - if the budget is set and in place, mixed with a growing budget, then what does that tell you? No curtailing back.

Want to know why they may reduce orders? Cost of the product vs need for equipment in numbers.

Can you provide a link to show Russia reduced it's defense budget from 2.75T Rubles to something less this year? Probably not cause it didn't happen.  Budget is stipulated per year for x amount of years in agreed procurement plans with additional costs, these procurement plans are SAP 2020 and now to 2027 at 19T Rubles.

Enjoy continuing to bullshit us Sherlock.

So proof of Russia's economic growth is all a lie, yet you provide nothing.  This site needs to be rid of idiots like you.  You talk of economic pressure having an effect, but where is the effect? If it would have an effect, it would show in numbers based upon economic factors like GDP drop, budget drop, etc. But if there is growth, then we're is the contraction you speak of? In possible sales of weapons to mod?

FYI, first orders are also test orders. This was done for Su-35 almost a decade ago.  Russia orders a squadron or tank division worth, test it out, train crew then orders more.  You lack both knowledge of recent history of Russia's procurement system and also lack economic knowledge and base your opinions on assumptions and false equivalency.

Sources:
https://sputniknews.com/military/201802261061988536-putin-signs-arms-program/
https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/collapsing-russian-defense-budget-and-other-fairy-tales
http://tass.com/defense/982575
https://www.janes.com/article/78744/russia-adjusts-defence-spending-upward

Edit: seems defense spending increased, not decreased.

LMFS wrote:

walle83 wrote:
As for the European countries not developing 5th generation aircrafts, well as it stand the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen E is enough to meet any russian threat now or in the near future. Than add the F-35 to this.

To counter the "Russian threat" they could as well stay at home watching TV. The Barbarians in the East are busy with their lives and are not planning to roll their tanks all the way to Lisbon any time soon      

Agree 100%. The HATO-bots lose the argument every time they open their pie-holes to utter such stenographical tripe....

But you can´t blame them. The lifes of hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats depend on this threat from the east.

By the way, the german army has 220 tanks. They want to raise the number by 50 or so but that will cost a few billions.

Hole wrote:They want to raise the number by 50 or so but that will cost a few billions.

Sadly that is not a joke, once one know how military procurement in Europe works

@Big_Gazza:

I guess having tens of thousands of foreign soldiers on our soil, storing their nukes, having tens of foreign operated bases (among them major strategic targets close to big cities), plus getting our governments, media and intelligence services turned into sock puppets is no threat to the sovereignty of European countries, but the Russians having an army within their own borders is terrifying. Oh man we are lame

The US 'Armata' from 35 years ago

Kits&Coffee
‏ @KitsAndCoffee
15h15 hours ago

The early 80s M1 Abrams-based TTB (Tank Test Bed: 3 crewmen+unmanned turret+autoloader) prototype got finally some TLC last year and very much needed restoration, at least cosmetically

walle83 wrote: I think u r confusing the US with Russia when it comes to sharing technology

3 examples please confirming your opinion so can better understand your thought behind this rhetorical figure. lik esanctions? blocking source code to partners who co-build f-35?

As for the European countries not developing 5th generation aircrafts, well as it stand the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen E is enough to meet any russian threat now or in the near future. Than add the F-35 to this.

And why and Russia is going to attack EU its biggest (so far soon will be Asia) trading partner? develop please your ideas. I am really interested in this topic. Especially Germany who is a natural ally ln Russia in Geopolitics. France to lesser extent too.

Or perhaps Serbia was threat?! so peace doves from peaceful west were bombing mostly of civilian population and infrastructure?



You read too much wiki
F-35 troubles: Pentagon refuses to accept new aircraft as its makes problem report ‘Top Secret’
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/f35-troubles-pentagon-refuses-to-accept-new-aircraft-as-its-makes-problem-report-top-secret/news-story/220610ce01157b1c32dbc947135a3b26

F-35 not finished? What I read the F-35 is in use and is attacking with great success down in Israel. Accourding to wikipedia about 300 planes has so far been built.

and Israeli propaganda outlets They never flew close to Damascus as could be hit by Pantsirs (Assad's ones)


BTW I've even saw once in supermarket "traditional Israeli sup Krupnick" . Especially that very often stock is based on pork

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupnik_(soup)

Krupnik is a thick Polish soup made from vegetable or meat broth, containing potatoes and barley groats (kasza jęczmienna, archaically called krupy - hence the name)

I have no idea how the european economies are standing against the Russian, u brought that up not me. I do know that the total Russian economy is very small if u compare it to countries in europe. Like twice the size of the Italian or something?

is ti more less size of German one (even with Us data) - check PPP in wiki . Russian economy is developing on more less same pace as German now. Despite US waging economical war against Russia (as US and their serfs are to scared to attack with military component) . I count thet with current reforms economy goes faster in next 2-3 years.

But most important parameter here is a military budget. This one is planned till 2027 and nothing is gonna be cut. Neither Armata nor Su-57 progammes were cancelled.


Approach towards buying new stuff in Russia is different from US though. In US they first produce pay then fix. In Russia they seem to buy after growing pains are fixed. Thus perhaps your opinion is based on lack of understanding how does it works in Russia?



I wonder how does it relate to your claims that Russia economy "now" is poor and Russia is cancelling programmes?





[quote] As for numbers of F-35 orderd by the UK, i have no idea, again im talking about Russia. Although i would not be suprised, the UK has a history of changing its military priorites ovre and over again.

so in Russia you call this cancelling to null and in UK change in priorities? am I getting it right?

Have a nice day!

likewise mate.

Hole wrote:But you can´t blame them. The lifes of hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats depend on this threat from the east.

By the way, the german army has 220 tanks. They want to raise the number by 50 or so but that will cost a few billions.

still less than millions of non-integrateable immigrants