Russian Liberal Opposition

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

I don't know about you, but since you are in US, you would not be able to go to Russia (especially if you were a US politician) and asked Russian or Chinese politicians to have them sanction your fellow countrymen, and then expect to keep your job.

Which currently elected or appointed Russian politicians are going abroad and asking for sanctions?

There is no rule that says a random party member can't go abroad and criticize the government. This is not the USSR.

And yes, as a US citizen, I could go to Russia, say that US Imperialism needs to be stopped or something similar, and I would not lose my citizenship on coming back.
Just like in any sane country.

In the link I provided, states the head of an opposition party is going to USA to ask congress to put sanctions on various Russians (journalists included).  No, I doubt if you were a party official, you could do that, or at least do that and keep your job.  Current party in Russia is saying that he should lose his position/job or at least be told he cannot run as a party official.  It is Fair Russia party saying he should be stripped of his citizenship.

Edit: Maybe not head of a party but major party member. Add to that, going and saying how bad USA is, is one thing. Asking for sanctions against your own people is a different matter.

People can vote to oust you from the party. This is not a active member of government.

The state taking away citizenship is insane, .....do I really need to spell it out? Where do you think that precedent can lead to/

Sure, my party might lose support if I did so, or I might be pushed out of party leadership.
But taking away citizenship, nah. Doesn't work like that.

TR1 wrote:People can vote to oust you from the party. This is not a active member of government.

The state taking away citizenship is insane, .....do I really need to spell it out? Where do you think that precedent can lead to/

Sure, my party might lose support if I did so, or I might be pushed out of party leadership.
But taking away citizenship, nah. Doesn't work like that.

That is were the three parties dont agree on. Communists say they should be labeled, Fair Russia says they should be exiled an current party says they should not be allowed to participate. It will be interesting on what gets passed.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:People can vote to oust you from the party. This is not a active member of government.

The state taking away citizenship is insane, .....do I really need to spell it out? Where do you think that precedent can lead to/

Sure, my party might lose support if I did so, or I might be pushed out of party leadership.
But taking away citizenship, nah. Doesn't work like that.

That is were the three parties dont agree on.  Communists say they should be labeled, Fair Russia says they should be exiled an current party says they should not be allowed to participate. It will be interesting on what gets passed.

Duma is a joke in any case.

Calling our Deputats worthless would be a compliment.

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:People can vote to oust you from the party. This is not a active member of government.

The state taking away citizenship is insane, .....do I really need to spell it out? Where do you think that precedent can lead to/

Sure, my party might lose support if I did so, or I might be pushed out of party leadership.
But taking away citizenship, nah. Doesn't work like that.

That is were the three parties dont agree on.  Communists say they should be labeled, Fair Russia says they should be exiled an current party says they should not be allowed to participate. It will be interesting on what gets passed.

Duma is a joke in any case.

Calling our Deputats worthless would be a compliment.

Rubber-stamp commitee.

They keep looking for a way to make themselves useful, but fail miserably.

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

People have their assets seized all time over countless offenses including tax evasion and it's quite common in most places around the world, but of course that never dawned on your kindergarten level of reasoning...Go on go cry to GarryB or some other moderator when you get your vagina shoved full of sand.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

People have their assets seized all time over countless offenses including tax evasion and it's quite common in most places around the world, but of course that never dawned on your kindergarten level of reasoning...Go on go cry to GarryB or some other moderator when you get your vagina shoved full of sand.

Aww, someone is upset they were banned for being a child like always .

Tax evasion is a crime. Criticizing the government is a crime too now? Wow.

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

People have their assets seized all time over countless offenses including tax evasion and it's quite common in most places around the world, but of course that never dawned on your kindergarten level of reasoning...Go on go cry to GarryB or some other moderator when you get your vagina shoved full of sand.

Aww, someone is upset they were banned for being a child like always .

Tax evasion is a crime. Criticizing the government is a crime too now? Wow.

Criticizing the government and seeking your fellow countrymen and journalists to be sanctioned, is something else. Not the same thing.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

People have their assets seized all time over countless offenses including tax evasion and it's quite common in most places around the world, but of course that never dawned on your kindergarten level of reasoning...Go on go cry to GarryB or some other moderator when you get your vagina shoved full of sand.

Aww, someone is upset they were banned for being a child like always .

Tax evasion is a crime. Criticizing the government is a crime too now? Wow.

Criticizing the government and seeking your fellow countrymen and journalists to be sanctioned, is something else.  Not the same thing.

Ok, so all those Americans screaming "impeach Bush!" and "try Bush at the Hague!" back in the day were traitors.
They deserve to have their accounts frozen, and kicked out of the country, so they can go and hate on the government elsewhere.

I've said before you guys sound like proper NKVD boots, and I'll say it again.

I am very glad all those Russian government thieves got sanctioned. Positively giddy about it actually.

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

People have their assets seized all time over countless offenses including tax evasion and it's quite common in most places around the world, but of course that never dawned on your kindergarten level of reasoning...Go on go cry to GarryB or some other moderator when you get your vagina shoved full of sand.

Aww, someone is upset they were banned for being a child like always .

Tax evasion is a crime. Criticizing the government is a crime too now? Wow.

Criticizing the government and seeking your fellow countrymen and journalists to be sanctioned, is something else.  Not the same thing.

Ok, so all those Americans screaming "impeach Bush!" and "try Bush at the Hague!" back in the day were traitors.
They deserve to have their accounts frozen, and kicked out of the country, so they can go and hate on the government elsewhere.

I've said before you guys sound like proper NKVD boots, and I'll say it again.

I am very glad all those Russian government thieves got sanctioned. Positively giddy about it actually.
That breaks no Russian laws.

If a politician from USA went to China and or Russia to ask them to have so and so sanctioned (someone in USA), I think he should lose his job.  He can be a critic, but once again, there is a clear difference between criticizing a government and targeting individuals, whom some are not even government.  Did I say he should be killed or kicked out of the country?  I said he should lose his job.  Don't put words in my mouth.

I don't know why you are giddy about how the USA is treating your former homeland and its people, and blatantly allowing the horrors to happen in Ukraine while blaming Russia entirely.  I think there is something wrong with you.  They are blatantly attacking your nation through sanctions and trying to bring your former country down.  How is that right?  How do you seem to like that?  Just because you hate Putin doesn't mean that the nation deserves to be sanctioned for something the US couldn't even provide evidence for, regardless what rhetorics were used.

You are really good at complaining and throwing insults and labeling people, then complain when someone calls you out on it. Maybe you should rethink that.

I don't think you read a single word I wrote.

Do you even understand the difference between say a member of Duma and a regional party leader?

As for sanctions, play big boy games, earn big boy consequences.

TR1 wrote:I don't think you read a single word I wrote.

Do you even understand the difference between say a member of Duma and a regional party leader?

Does it matter?  He is supposed to be a representative, be it regional or federal.  That does not make his stance any better or right.  He being a representative of Russian people in a region, and is calling for sanctions on Russian people, even a JOURNALIST (had to use bold and capital so you can also understand) is far FAR from the right thing.  If he wants to be a critic, fine.  If he wants to shout out about it, fine.  If he wants to provide evidence to his claims, great! but running over to uncle sam in USA and asking for individuals (politicians and journalists and civies) to be sanctioned is NOT fine, not in any country I know of. In USA, just for telling the truth and providing evidence of US spying on people (just spying), they treat Snowden as a Traiter: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/21/edward-snowden-murder-mike-rogers-isis-_n_6024600.html. Guess in the land of free, it isn't so free, now is it?

TR1 wrote:
As for sanctions, play big boy games, earn big boy consequences.

Yes, same thing goes for being a sell out loser seeking assistance to damage people within your own country and then being threatened and or possibly losing job or being kicked out of country.  Play stupid, win stupid prizes.

Then the Russian people can vote him out of office.
Or, if he is an unelected or appointed party member, they can cry about it and at best hope the rest of the party kicks him out. Thats it. A private citizen can recommend what the hell he wants publicly.

If Kasparov wants to go abroad and ask for sanctions, that is his deal. His assets are his, not for the Russian government thieves to freeze.

Russia caring about its journalists is particularly funny though. Foreign sanctions shouldn't be your biggest concern when it comes to Russian journalism lmao.

TR1 wrote:Then the Russian people can vote him out of office.
Or, if he is an unelected or appointed party member, they can cry about it and at best hope the rest of the party kicks him out. Thats it. A private citizen can recommend what the hell he wants publicly.

If Kasparov wants to go abroad and ask for sanctions, that is his deal. His assets are his, not for the Russian government thieves to freeze.

Russia caring about its journalists is particularly funny though. Foreign sanctions shouldn't be your biggest concern when it comes to Russian journalism lmao.

Russian Journalists biggest fear right now is either Chechens or Ukrainians it seems.

But he should be fired, plain and simple. You can try to coat it however way you want, does not mean jack.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:Then the Russian people can vote him out of office.
Or, if he is an unelected or appointed party member, they can cry about it and at best hope the rest of the party kicks him out. Thats it. A private citizen can recommend what the hell he wants publicly.

If Kasparov wants to go abroad and ask for sanctions, that is his deal. His assets are his, not for the Russian government thieves to freeze.

Russia caring about its journalists is particularly funny though. Foreign sanctions shouldn't be your biggest concern when it comes to Russian journalism lmao.

Russian Journalists biggest fear right now is either Chechens or Ukrainians it seems.

But he should be fired, plain and simple.  You can try to coat it however way you want, does not mean jack.

Fired from what?

Who employs him?

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:Then the Russian people can vote him out of office.
Or, if he is an unelected or appointed party member, they can cry about it and at best hope the rest of the party kicks him out. Thats it. A private citizen can recommend what the hell he wants publicly.

If Kasparov wants to go abroad and ask for sanctions, that is his deal. His assets are his, not for the Russian government thieves to freeze.

Russia caring about its journalists is particularly funny though. Foreign sanctions shouldn't be your biggest concern when it comes to Russian journalism lmao.

Russian Journalists biggest fear right now is either Chechens or Ukrainians it seems.

But he should be fired, plain and simple.  You can try to coat it however way you want, does not mean jack.

Fired from what?

Who employs him?

His party. And barred from participating in elections. That is MY opinion.

So Ukrainian version of Nemtsov was killed. It's bad year for Nemtsovs through whole Eastern Europe.

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

The US has a long history of economic sanctions against foreign nationals who act against Americas interests... up to and including murder and attempts at murder... how many CIA attempts were there to kill Castro?

In comparison the disassociation and freezing of assets of a domestic national is rather moderate action in comparison... or do rich traitors who continue to gain in wealth deserve their ill gotten gains?

And yes, as a US citizen, I could go to Russia, say that US Imperialism needs to be stopped or something similar, and I would not lose my citizenship on coming back.
Just like in any sane country.

That is funny, because if you go to the Middle East and join ISIS and try to go back to the US you will be arrested most likely and almost certainly lose your US citizenship.

And US politicians have already said Russia is a greater world threat than ISIS or Ebola.

Rubber-stamp commitee.

They keep looking for a way to make themselves useful, but fail miserably.

So Duma, Congress, Parliment... call it what you like... it is pretty much the same everywhere.

Tax evasion is a crime. Criticizing the government is a crime too now? Wow.

Actively trying to get an enemy state to act against your own country is a crime too. Ask the Americans... they can arrest Russians in Africa and kidnap them from Thailand, refer to them as a lord of war and put them in US prison for crimes against US INTERESTS... why shouldn't Russia be allowed to do the same?

As for sanctions, play big boy games, earn big boy consequences.

So isn't that contradicting what you have been saying on this thread?

A russian politician goes to the US to ask for sanctions against his rivals... he is playing big boy games... if he tries to return home... hang him and his family and the families pets... big boy consequences...

If it is OK to sanction Russia without any evidence and in fact with open media evidence that the west is actually doing what it is accusing Russia of doing... then clearly there are no rules.

If Kasparov wants to go abroad and ask for sanctions, that is his deal. His assets are his, not for the Russian government thieves to freeze.

Doesn't that apply to everyone? What about all the assets frozen in the US by US imposed sanctions? Surely their assets are theirs and not for the Washington government thieves to steal?

I agree with Werewolf here... you can't go to an enemy state and suggest they take any sort of action against fellow citizens and expect that to be ignored and to go unpunished.

The Russian people, and his own party should have the last word, not the government or other partys.
Freedom of speech is that.
It would be dangerous if any law  in that way pass.

People like Kasparov or Nemtsov openly speak against Russia.
Actually beg for Russia to be destroyed. This is a blatant act of treason. There must be laws about this, full stop.
When speeches don't refer against people or parties or policies but against the country itself it's easy to detect.
Openly asking for isolation and economic war and maximum NATO meddling against your own country can't be misinterpreted.
Execution is the only suitable punishment but I would compromise with citizenship and asset seizure.

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:http://rt.com/politics/251949-russia-kasyanov-opposition-citizenship/

didnt know where to put this, but another 5th coloumnist may get what is coming to him. A bill from opposition parties are pushing to strip citizenship for people such as Kasyanov for their blatant work for another country.

Kasparov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Ponomarev, Kudrin are subversion specialists and should have their assets frozen and seized!

YEah!

And their families should be arrested and "relocated" just to make sure they don't spread their ideological subversion!

People have their assets seized all time over countless offenses including tax evasion and it's quite common in most places around the world, but of course that never dawned on your kindergarten level of reasoning...Go on go cry to GarryB or some other moderator when you get your vagina shoved full of sand.

Aww, someone is upset they were banned for being a child like always .

Tax evasion is a crime. Criticizing the government is a crime too now? Wow.

Most of these cause celebres accumulate money from unaccountable sources (NGO's), which means a lot of them receive money and it doesn't show up in the tax returns. Most places in the world if you receive significant amounts of money and it doesn't show up in taxes then the Federal taxing agency will threaten to seize your assets. Most countries (including the U.S.) in the world grants law enforcement agencies the ability to seize/confiscate assets when a warrant has been assigned for several accusations of a crime, and you don't actually have to be convicted of anything either.

I have removed a section that just makes you look bad and that I would probably take action over. Can you not see that if you had stopped at the above that you have made good counter points and the rest is petty unnecessary crap that lowers the tone of this forum and actually makes you look bad. GarryB

Note in future I will expect you to not continue the way you have and censor yourself... if I have to keep doing it you will find yourself banned for a significant period and if you continue when you return... if you choose to return the ban could be permanent... I am describing a path you can choose... and I am promising the final destination will be a permanent ban... you choose.

magnumcromagnon wrote:which means a lot of them receive money and it doesn't show up in the tax returns.

Oh so now you are concerned with tax returns? By that standard half of the Russian government needs to be investigated, but ofc, they are not the TRUE threat to Russia, that some minor opposition officials are.

Most places in the world if you receive significant amounts of money and it doesn't show up in taxes then the Federal taxing agency will threaten to seize your assets.

And we all know that's neeeeever political. No, when Putin declares his mild income that's clearly ALL he makes LOL.
Also, NGO donations and personal spending are two different things. Might want to clarify between donations for political purposes and personal income.

Most countries (including the U.S.) in the world grants law enforcement agencies the ability to seize/confiscate assets when a warrant has been assigned for several accusations of a crime, and you don't actually have to be convicted of anything either.

Got it, criticizing the government should be a crime.
What crime did Kasparov commit?
Taking NGO money when Russian Law did not prohibit it for political activism is not a crime.

Of course your pre-pubescent mind struggles with elementary understanding of law enforcement. Accusing others of being upset while crying to moderators is rich coming from a guy who holds up popsicles vertically and sit on them to determine their flavor. Come back when you fixed the broken glass in your vagina.

Awww, more teenage angst! Cute.
Garry, he hurt my feelings! ;(

TR1 wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:which means a lot of them receive money and it doesn't show up in the tax returns.

Oh so now you are concerned with tax returns? By that standard half of the Russian government needs to be investigated, but ofc, they are not the TRUE threat to Russia, that some minor opposition officials are.

Same everywhere.

Most places in the world if you receive significant amounts of money and it doesn't show up in taxes then the Federal taxing agency will threaten to seize your assets.

And we all know that's neeeeever political. No, when Putin declares his mild income that's clearly ALL he makes LOL.
Also, NGO donations and personal spending are two different things. Might want to clarify between donations for political purposes and personal income.

Again we know that corruption is rampant in Russia, therefore the guy people need to create a modicum of opposition should be the Christ himself. Which unfortunately isn't the case in Russia (nor elsewhere).

Most countries (including the U.S.) in the world grants law enforcement agencies the ability to seize/confiscate assets when a warrant has been assigned for several accusations of a crime, and you don't actually have to be convicted of anything either.

Got it, criticizing the government should be a crime.
What crime did Kasparov commit?
Taking NGO money when Russian Law did not prohibit it for political activism is not a crime.

Kasparov took (is taking) money from governments that are currently hostile to Russia and have placed sanctions on her. I'm no blind man, but defending Kasparov is defending insanity.

Of course your pre-pubescent mind struggles with elementary understanding of law enforcement. Accusing others of being upset while crying to moderators is rich coming from a guy who holds up popsicles vertically and sit on them to determine their flavor. Come back when you fixed the broken glass in your vagina.

Awww, more teenage angst! Cute.
Garry, he hurt my feelings! ;(

[/quote]

Nothing to say here, let's be more constructive.

The 'same everywhere" argument is weak and quite frankly does not concern me.
It is NOT the same everywhere, it is horrific in Russia, and even if it was on the global standard that would not mean change does not need to happen.

Kasparov is gone from Russia because his political activity displeased the Kremlin. That does not sit well with me, and should not with anyone who wants Russia to have a healthy political climate.
Calling Kasparov a criminal in the same vein as Navalny is asinine.
Not even going to talk about Magnum claim that Kudrin is a "subversion specialist" and should have his assets frozen.

What Kasparov takes in now does not concern me since today he is not an active political force within Russia.