Tiger-M has 5mm plates and weighs 7t. Can increase armour but makes p/w ratio unusable. PVP is light, high p/w and well armoured. It makes an excellent light transport. Not to say we do not need a good 7t vehicle.
Well if the PVP info is correct then once it is in production the new armour could be produced for the Tiger-M as well and either make it lighter which wont be that necessary as the PVP will have been produced, or make it better protected which will make it even better. It might also be useful for the interior ministry forces to have different vehicles from the military from a political point of view.
Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear
RIA Novosti
13:20 24/02/2011
MOSCOW, February 24 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is holding talks with France on the purchase of Felin advanced "future soldier" equipment, which includes new combat clothing with body armor and a new ballistic helmet, weapons, and a portable computer.
"We will take several Felin sets, we are currently in talks with our French partners," First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said on Thursday.
Felin, produced by France's Sagem Defense & Security, is currently entering service with the French Army. The system includes a vest containing an integrated radio and GPS system, a hardened laptop computer and advanced optronics.
The new Russian state arms procurement plan includes the creation of a Russian analog of the system, Popovkin said.
"We need something no less capable than the equipment that is now being studied by the United States, Germany and other states," he said.
The Russian military command places the lives of its soldiers above all else, Popovkin said, which is why it had concluded an agreement with Italy's IVECO for armored vehicles to be made in Russia.
He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.
He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.
That is a bit harsh considering Russian domestic producers have just gone through a long period of no domestic orders... I wonder how he would react to the head of a company expressing regret that the Armed Forces is in such bad shape hinting that this would be the fault of those that manage the Armed Forces.
I should also add that a Russian produced FELIN would be good for deployment with Russian Special Units and hopefully Russian makers will learn a lot from this French gear but ultimately what they want is kit that every soldier could be issued with as standard gear. This would bring the C4IR right down to the individual soldier which should be the ultimate goal.
I think most people understand the performance and management difference between having 100 separate computers where data transfer is by floppy disk and only one computer is connected to the printer so to print you need access to that computer, and having a computer network where all 100 computers can share information and software and access to printers and scanners and the internet etc.
Will be very expensive of course, but all the components are having to be developed anyway... now however they are being developed as a set so some items can be combined to simplify or even improve performance.
For instance a big heavy battery plus big heavy body armour will be a problem. Making the battery a gel battery that fits like a vest under the body armour will make the body armour a bit more comfortable to wear and add a bit of trauma padding while at the same time being a battery. Obviously the armour vest will be heavy and the battery will be heavy, but making the battery a trauma liner for the armour vest will spread the weight and make it easier to carry and at the same time make the armour more comfortable and more effective hopefully while making the battery slightly lighter or longer lasting etc etc.
Last edited by GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.
That is a bit harsh considering Russian domestic producers have just gone through a long period of no domestic orders... I wonder how he would react to the head of a company expressing regret that the Armed Forces is in such bad shape hinting that this would be the fault of those that manage the Armed Forces.
BullZ Eye!! But he is a general ( can't wait for him to get canned) But about the gear, hope it works!
The first stuff will likely be bulky as they put in everything they want, but like anything the soldiers will pare away the stuff they really need and "lose" the rest. Hopefully over time everything they want becomes lighter and multipurpose gear can reduce the number and bulk of what is included and a more realistic evaluation of what is needed and what is wanted will make it simpler and lighter and more comfortable. Lots of testing and feedback and communication between the makers and good research on what everyone else is doing should lead to something good.
The trials are over and the General Staff like it. Wonder how many they want. I think fitting VDV rapid reaction units would be enough until we figure out how to copy it.
I suspect there are bits of it they wont even bother copying as the Russian equivalent will be good enough.
If successful they will likely incorporate the AK-200 or possibly that new bullpup rifle that can be used underwater.
They are spending lots on communications so they will likely want compatibility and it might result in Russian components they want to use as well and they might have other things they want to retain as well.
Personally I would think that due to the costs involved that spending should not be too extravagant for the moment... perhaps the FELIN for sub units of the VDV that perform recon or special missions and the Russian equivelent for the rest of the VDV and perhaps naval infantry so that the problems and issues can be worked out and the good bits and bad bits found and the complete sets evaluated.
The result should be that a final standard base set be created and anything that is not Russian made is bought through a licence production agreement. I could imagine that from the base set different modules could be added for different specialist uses. For instance all sets will need some level of protection, however some might need protection from small arms fire and fire and the cold of the tundra or the heat of the desert, while others might need protection from fire, or chemical weapons or radiation or in the case of naval infantry they might want fire and small arms protection but in a form that will float. There are materials that change colour with temperature that could be used... at minus 10 degrees C and below it becomes white while at temperatures between minus 10 degrees C and 25 degrees C it turns into a woodland camouflage pattern and at 25 degrees C up to "on fire" it turns into a desert camouflage pattern.
Russia is in talks with French military manufacturer Panhard on the purchase of 500 light armored vehicles for its border guards, a Russian arms trade watchdog said on Friday.
"Negotiations are being held on [the purchase of] 3.1-ton light armored vehicles Vehicule Blinde Leger on a 4x4 wheel platform," the Center for the Analysis of the World Arms Trade said on its website, citing Panhard Chairman Christian Mons.
The contract could amount to $260 million, the statement said.
The vehicles are meant for the Federal Security Service border guards.
Russia is also continuing talks with France on a $2 billion contract to buy Mistral class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy.
Or maybe the French loosened the requirements... ie initially you have to make 1,000 or it is not worth it for us to hand over the technology.
Obviously the Russians will only want to make 500 PVPs as that is enough to get them into service, and is a reasonable overall price for the new production facilities to make them.
By the time they have built 500 PVPs they will have incorporated the useful features like the armour etc into their own designs.
Remember these are likely for border patrol etc, but the Russian Army itself will have light brigade forces that could use a vehicle this size, so based on experience in making the PVP they might adapt the useful stuff to an existing design and make 5,000 of them... even a heavy brigade will need small light fast vehicles... these vehicles could be considered a replacement for the Jeep... everything the Humvee should have been. Light, fast, mobile, and with a reasonable level of protection (not a tank, but then not tin foil either).
The important question is how well does it handle deep snow and/or ice and/or deep mud.
France and Germany are establishing a closer military co-operation with Russia 2011-06-29 | Andrzej Wilk
Russia and France on 17 June signed a contract for the construction of two Mistral class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy. On the same day, in the shade of the Russian-French agreement, a Russian-German deal on building a modern combat training centre was struck. The centre will be based on the Russian army’s training ground in Mulino near Moscow, which is the largest in Europe. While the contract of sale of the French ships to Russia – which has been commented on by the press worldwide from the very beginning – is mainly of political significance and bears no significant impact on the condition of the Russian fleet, the implementation of the Russian-German deal – which has not been given any publicity – will fundamentally improve the combat capacity of the Russian armed forces.
France is selling helicopter carriers to Russia
Negotiations concerning Russia’s purchase of Mistral class ships from France, which are capable of transporting an equipped battalion (units of this class are capable of transporting 40 tanks, 450 soldiers and 16 heavy helicopters) started in November 2009. The purchase of the amphibious assault carriers – the first ones in its fleet – was not most important for Russia since they are not sufficiently grounded from the point of view of the navy use doctrine (this has been confirmed by contradictory Russian reports on the future allocation of the units and their tasks). What was most important were the modern command and communication systems which the ships are equipped with. One proof for the fact that Russian demands regarding the electronic equipment of the ships have been satisfied at least partly (contrary to the reservations which have been voiced also in France) was the concern expressed by the French Defence Ministry, which has announced it will examine the details of this contract. This may mean that the ship equipment issues will still be a subject of complicated negotiations. Finally, the parties reached an agreement on building two ships in France in co-operation with Russian companies (they will supply for example elements of the hull and the ship-borne attack helicopters); the estimated value of the contract is 1.2 billion euros. The ships will be built by the French-Russian DCNS-OSK shipbuilding consortium, which has been established specially for this purpose. The shares of Russian shipbuilders in the construction of the first two ships at the French Saint-Nazaire shipyard will reach 20% and 40% respectively. The first Mistral class ship for Russia is to be ready in late 2013/early 2014, and the second one is expected one year later. The option of building a further two such units, which has been announced in Russia on numerous occasions, appears purely hypothetical at the moment. The Russian armament programme by 2020 allocates no funds for the purchase of more Mistral ships. However, it is worth noting that on 17 June Russia signed one more contract with the French-Korean shipbuilding corporation, STX (the owner of DCNS), which provides for the construction of a shipway to be used for the construction of large combat ships at the Admiralteyskaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg. It is likely to be used by Russia to build completely different units for the Russian navy, for example a new aircraft carrier, which is currently being designed.
Germany is building a modern combat training centre for the Russian army
The creation of a Russian new-generation combat training centre in co-operation with Germany is one of the key elements of the Russian army’s modernisation process. The centre is to enable comprehensive training – both with the use of 3D simulators and in training ground conditions – for an expanded tactical formation (brigade), including an exercise engagementbetween two brigades. This will be the first facility of this kind in the Russian army (very few Western armies have similar training centres) and will change fundamentally the way and the nature of the training of the Russian ground forces as well as the air forces and airborne forces which co-operate with them. The centre will enable the Russian army to shorten and improve the security of the training process, to evaluate more precisely the level achieved by the trained units and to substantially cut expenses. Progress in the work on the creation of this centre is unusually rapid; the decision to create it in co-operation with Germany was made in December 2010, the Russian Defence Ministry and Germany’s Rheinmetall company signed a contract to design the centre in February 2011 and an agreement on 17 June envisaging the centre’s construction by 2013, when it is expected to commence its training activity (the centre is to reach complete readiness in 2014). The estimated value of the contract is 280 million euros, which includes simulators ordered by the Russian army in Germany, the same as those used at the Bundeswehr training centres. However, the nature of this co-operation is not strictly commercial; as progress in the implementation of the project to construct the centre is made, co-operation is being intensified between the Russian armed forces and the German army (they signed a memorandum of co-operation in the training of officers and non-commissioned officers in February this year), and the contracts are preceded by talks between senior officials representing the defence ministries of the two countries. According to some Russian sources, the Mulino combat training centre is also to be used in future by the Bundeswehr, which does not have such a large facility.
Conclusion
The deals with France and Germany constitute a small part of the Russian army’s modernisation programme currently underway. They confirm, however, that the Russian defence sector is still backward in selected areas, mainly those involving electronics, in comparison to the arms industries of the leading Western countries. On the other hand, the deals are a sign of regularly increasing Russian expenditure on military purposes, which are currently close to 3% of the country’s GDP. The Russian Federation intends to spend some 500 billion euros on the development and purchase of weapons and military equipment by 2020. It is worth noting the level of publicity the two deals have been given; the press has devoted a large amount of attention to the talks on the purchase of the French ships by Russia since their commencement, and some countries which believe that the Russian army poses a potential threat to them (mainly Estonia and Georgia) have also protested against the possibility this contract being signed. In turn, the German-Russian co-operation on the building of the combat training centre has never been an issue discussed in the press. In Germany this is a taboo subject like the previous signs of the Bundeswehr’s military co-operation with the Russian armed forces (for example, during the putting into orbit of a group of German military satellites). The two contracts clearly show the differences in the approaches of France and Germany to military co-operation with Russia. In the case of Paris this co-operation is mainly of a business and political nature, while Berlin is focusing on the business and military aspects which in future may offer benefits to both parties – regardless of the training co-operation between the Russian Armed Forces and the Bundeswehr, German firms are counting on more contracts linked to the technical modernisation of the Russian army. This is the reason why the process of reaching agreement and consequently the levels of publicity given to those two deals in the press worldwide have been different.
Oh that will end well. The Stuxnet virus that hit the IRanian reactor targeted the German components.
That simulator could end up taking down Russia's networks....give others an eye to see how Russian Commanders plan to act in war.
What a stupid purchase. Russia could have made it's own training simulator...reach out and get some of those unemployed Chinese code writers..hire them to make it in Russia...then just kill them when it's done. Very cheap to make things this way. And keep security.
So Russian Army soldier should not act as they train. Do what's not expected because the other side already knows what you will do.
It is a training simulator... there is no need to connect it to the air defence network or any other military network.
They can put trojans and viruses and bugs all through the system... it wont matter.
Most of the software can be rewritten anyway... the Russians have plenty of computer simulation game programmers and they can write the software to suit the hardware being attached to the system.
I rather doubt the Russians will want to share military technical performance data with Germany so they can program the system to accurately simulate the performance of certain hardware.
I think this is a brilliant purchase for Russia that will allow two brigade sized formations train and practise without burning fuel, wearing out tanks, or using expensive new guided ammo. It will allow them to train from individual vehicles or weapon stations (ie manpads and ATGMs teams) right up to armoured units and entire brigades against entire brigades.
Performance can be monitored and checked and recorded for later analysis, and new weapons and command and control systems can be tested without needing the actual hardware in service.
They can develop new hardware and create simulators for it and test it with the simulator for ease of use before a test deployment to check to make sure the users are using it as intended (remember all training is recorded and can be reviewed and analysed). They can also train on any terrain in any conditions day or night and any weather, without threat of cancellation or frostbite cases. They can recreate scenarios to test forces to be sent into places like the Caucuses.
Most NATO countries don't have this simulation capability...
...and the US is grumpy about Russia buying 4 helicopter carriers from France!
The point is that once they have bought this simulator it can be used as a model for future Russian designed and made simulators with Russian code, Russian military symbology and Russian hardware.
This system will need replacing or seriously upgrading in 2015 anyway because of the new hardware that will be entering service will require all new hardware simulators developed so that will be a good opportunity to upgrade the electronic hardware and software too.
I am so incredibly jealous that new Russian recruits will get a chance to play the ultimate LAN games, before using the real thing in real exercises.
SC Rosoboronexport - company of Rostechnologii group - ZAO ITT Inertial Technologies of Technokomplex, and Sagem (Safran group), at International aerospace exhibition MAKS 2011, at a ceremony attended by Vladimir Putin, chief of the government of Russia, and Sergei Chernezov, Chief Executive of Rostekhnologii, and Jean-Paul Herteman, chairman and CEO of Safran, announced today the creation of RS Alliance, a joint venture, specialized in inertial navigation systems for military aircraft.
RS-Alliance will be a key manufacturer of defense equipment within the framework of a partnership with Sagem (Safran group). This joint venture will be based in Russia and operating under Russian law.
The joint venture has been formed primarily to manufacture the new fifth-generation LINS-100RS inertial navigation system, designed to provide military aircraft with high-precision navigation capabilities. A high performing autonomous navigation system, the LINS-100RS integrates latest-generation digital laser gyros.
Serguei Chernezov, Chief Executive of Rostechnologii noted: “Cooperation between Russia and France has steadily been building momentum The creation of the RS Alliance joint venture with Sagem is a striking example of this growing cooperation. Deployment of this project is extremely important for the development of economic and commercial cooperation between the two countries, particularly in this innovative high-tech segment.”
According to Jean-Paul Herteman, Chairman and CEO of Safran: “This new joint venture will enable Sagem to foster the further development of collaboration with the Russian aviation industries. Building on this new partnership, we are especially proud of our role as an active partner in the long-term governmental and industrial collaboration established by Russia and France.”
Hmm thats nice , Indian Su-30MKI uses Laser INS from French with embedded GPS.
By GPS do you mean Navstar or Glonass?
If you mean Navstar, is it military or commercial?
This new INS system for Russian aircraft will be Glonass military, which while not as accurate as Navstar military is certainly more reliable than Navstar civilian.
This is good news as ring laser gyros are very useful bits of kit, and can be used on pretty much any platform including aircraft, weapons, land and sea vehicles etc etc.
Between this and the Thales VECTOR 100, France takes over another capability gap.
Takes over is a bit of a stretch...
Before the end of the Cold War US truck designs dominated Soviet truck parks in terms of lend lease as well as licence produced vehicles produced in the Soviet Union under licence.
When the cold war started there was suddenly a cutoff/disconnnect from the US, but the Soviet Truck industry survived and continued onwards developing new trucks.
If France wants to help improve the Russian military that is OK.
If they start getting belligerent and start trying to pull strings to get some control, then those strings can be cut and either that money spent in other countries for the same thing, or spent on a domestic capability.
Very simply using French material reduces development costs and gets Russia up to speed in terms of new technology. It will be more expensive than if some magic Russian company had kept up with the latest technology, but in the real world where Russian companies have been left behind it offers some a chance to catch up and puts them on a more level playing field than they would be without the partnership with France.
It is also helping the French, so don't think it is France just doing Russia a favour.
GarryB wrote:By GPS do you mean Navstar or Glonass?
If you mean Navstar, is it military or commercial?
I mean Navstar and its commercial , since military signal is not available to India.
I saw the latest Sigma 95 has embedded GPS and GLONASS receiver , but when these equipment was selected some time back in early 2000 the glonass option was not viable then.
This is the one MKI uses http://www.sagem-ds.com/spip.php?rubrique51
The program "A soldier of the future", supported by armies of many countries around the world, will help to equip soldiers with the latest technology in order to increase their effectiveness in combat. This program includes the modernization of armaments, not only soldiers, but the technology and body armor, surveillance systems, as well as increasing the mobility of an individual soldier by the presence of individual portable energy sources.
In the late 1990s, France started the program FELIN, designed to create complex weapons infantryman of the XXI century. FELIN (Fr. abbreviation Fantassin a Equiperments et Liassons Integres) - a set of individual equipment, featuring a modular design and open architecture, the so-called future soldier kit. In Russia it was first shown at MAKS-2009 and even then he drew the attention of our military.
The head of Russian Armed Forces General Staff, Army General Nikolai Makarov, said that the Ministry of Defense plans to buy several sets of equipment for testing. The kit includes tools FELIN body armor based on his waistcoat and unloading which are mounted armored, backpack with a capacity for potable water, as well as space for the spare stores and hand grenades.
What is a Russian KBES? The same elements as in FELIN, only domestic production. This battle set the security 6B21 "Permyachka or costume crew BM 6B15" Cowboy ", the machine Nikonov AN94, SVD sniper rifle with a sight 1PN106-01 machine gun panel 'Pecheneg." Fighters can use thermal imaging sight, "Shahin" and TV sight.
True, it weighs a full set of 36 kg and the other parameters it is not inferior, according to representatives of the Central Scientific Research Institute "Tochmash" French. In addition, "Permyachka" was tested during the fighting in the North Caucasus, where shown, according to experts CRI "Tochmash" very positive results. Moreover, it has developed a promising KBES "Warrior," which will be used all the latest achievements of science and technology, including such popular today nanotechnology.
What to choose? In economic terms, domestic KBES is much cheaper. Then, as an old Russian proverb says, not all gold that glitters. For example, the former chief weapons of the Armed Forces, Colonel-General Anatoly Sitnov argues that Western military equipment is not better than ours, and sometimes worse.
No need to believe Hollywood movies, where the Americans or the French war in the desert at 38-40 degrees plus with raised bronevorotnikami dressed as knights in armor vests, special protective clothing, helmets, boots. This gear can not only run but also to breathe, or just sit, Boil, as soft-boiled egg. Or perhaps, hard-boiled. And experts on arms is generally considered that in Western KBES'll either tear armored collar or trim back the helmet, because in certain positions firing lying down, try to raise as an infantryman's head, the helmet certainly rested in the back and collar will slip on the eye.
And in this situation is very difficult to shoot. The same number of Western vests are inferior to bullet resistance and vitality to domestic developments. Perhaps he was right the head of "Rosoboronexport" Anatoly Isaikin, when, in answer to a question about buying Western weapons, he replied that it was necessary to buy "a certain number of samples for comparative tests." This, he says, is absolutely normal. Already a batch, mass production should be organized in Russia.
Infantryman can use personal weapons: machine gun FAMAS F1, light machine gun FN Minimi sniper rifle and FR-F2. All these weapons are equipped with new sights and day and night vision, c improved means targeting, as well as small-sized camcorder. Combat helmet kit has built-in communications and optoelectronic processing system and display information. In addition, this helmet is built in a protective mask for use in case of enemy weapons of mass destruction.
It allows the soldier, not removing it, eat, drink and even smoke what else is good is the system? Using its fighters ever know the exact location of their comrades and the enemy can negotiate without raising his voice even at the strongest din of battle. The weight of the kit is not more than 26 pounds. Well, its value is large enough - about 45 thousand dollars
Is there a similar development in Russia? There is. At MAKS -2011 exhibition in CRI "Tochmash" was first presented to the new Russian military equipment set soldier (KBES) type "Barmitsa", developed by leading role of the Institute with the participation of more than 20 enterprises of the national defense. The kit, which includes the basic elements of system destruction, protection, management, and life-energy, aroused great interest among domestic and foreign experts, media representatives and visitors.
Sorry Vlad, I did read it and found it interesting, but it lacks details.
If it had direct comparisons between FELIN and the 36kg Russian version, then there would be more to talk about.
It mentions that the Russian body armour is better, but that could be an area where the French have made weight saving decisions to keep overall weight low. It mentions the Russian domestic model is cheaper, which perhaps suggests a combined French Russian set for export to third countries to reduce costs and improve sales potential.
It is just hard to make a comparison without details and specifications of each set.
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