Purchases of Foreign Military Equipment

This is big news

Russia To Train With German Know-how

I rather suspect the Russians will try to buy the licence to operate this training system on their own and evolve the capability of updating it themselves.

They will have a lot of new systems coming on line in the 2013-2015 time period and I doubt they will want to hand over fairly detailed information needed to simulate these items and vehicles to Germany... no matter how friendly they are.

BTW your article had something more than my posts... it has dates and deadlines.

From what I have read this system can be used to train individual soldiers on individual pieces of kit, like rifles, grenade launchers and missile systems, right up through vehicles with full crews, missile batteries with multiple vehicles, to a full Brigade all working together.

More than just a training tool, as mentioned in the article, this will enable developers of systems to see how their systems interact on a real (simulated) battlefield.

It will be a good way to train commanders and individual soldiers to use new assets like UAVs, from divisional UAVs down to hand launched systems at unit level just as one example.

Experience in operating in different terrain without burning fuel or using ammo or wearing out vehicles will be useful... but I can see each military district wanting their own system.

I assume each system can simulate all the brigade types, including artillery and other specialised units.

Russian Military plans to buy 100 French Helicopters



MOSCOW, February 22 (RIA Novosti)

The Russian Defense Ministry is planning to buy at least 45 light multipurpose helicopters from a foreign manufacturer, Vedomosti daily said on Wednesday.

The paper cited a defense industry source as saying that a contract worth over 6 billion rubles ($201 mln) for the purchase of fifteen AS350 and thirty AS355 Ecureil helicopters made by Eurocopter is in the works.

The Defense Ministry may order a total of 100 helicopters of this type mainly for training purposes.
A joint venture with Eurocopter could be set up for the assembly of AS350/355 in Russia, the source said.

The purchase of light helicopters abroad shows the urgent need for light helicopters by the Russian military, as domestic Ansats and Ka-226s are just entering the market while the Mi-34 is still under testing.

The Eurocopter AS350 is a single-engined light helicopter while the AS355 is a twin-engine variant. Both versions have been produced since the mid-1970s and sales remain strong.

Russian Military Plans to Buy Foreign Helicopters – Media | Defense | RIA Novosti

So far the number floated has been 15 single engine, and 30 twin engine.

For training I don't see why they would go to Eurocopter. Ansat-U has already been entering service specifically for training.

It seems they have gone really frenchy. Are they going to put these on the mistral
Its seems pretty impratical for any military situation, well except giving generals and high rankers new cars to drive in.
I dont see any mutual benefit between Russia and France, it just seems like a russian handout to france.
If they really wanted a light helicopter they should have gone with and amerikanyet UH-6M.
This money to buy that eurocopter should be going in russian plants so people in russian would benefit from their taxes not the frenchies

American would not really have been an option as there would be too many strings attached... you don't buy American weapons... you rent them.

I rather suspect this purchase of French Helos is part of a larger cooperation agreement, and I suspect it is a stopgap measure till the new Mi-34C1 finishes testing and is ready for full scale production in a couple of years time.

In the past such a role has been performed by the Mi-2, but it was produced in what is now a foreign country, so they might as well buy from France for the moment.

When the Russian helos are ready for mass production they can use the excuse that these French helos were designed in the 1970s and need replacing, despite being new production models.

The production facilities set up to make these helos could be used to produce the new Russian models in the future.

I am sure the French helo maker needs the business right now.

These helicopters are a different lift class above the Mi-34's little engine. Mi-34 is strictly for training while the French helos are actually light utility copters. I expect they will fill a stopgap role in the LUH.

Mi-2 is coming back in China with a JV production facility there. It is the same lift class as these choppers but it must not meet modern standards to be inducted.

French Eurocopter is the biggest maker of helicopters in the world. They don't need the business. We certainly do...

i think a primary problem for light Russian helos has been the fact that it has been an area largely ignored by Mil and Kamov.

I think the Ka-225 is brilliant, and there are designs by Irkut like the Aktai and Ansat that look like world class modern designs.

I think the main problem is delivery time.

It appears to me from the articles posted that they have chosen these French helos as mature designs that are ready to get rapidly into production.

With the joint venture they will end up with 100 odd French helos along with production facilities to build their own helo designs.

The main problem I see is that they are investing in French helicopters from the 1970s when they should be investing in new Russian designs.

The ANSAT is probably in a slightly heavier weight class, and the Aktai is probably a bit light.

Looking at this article:

Mi-34C1 snags first orders

Mi-34C1The key current light helicopter programme being pursued by the Russian Helicopters holding company is the resumed production of the heavily upgraded Mil Mi-34C1 by the Progress aircraft company in the town of Arsenyev. New helicopter features the advanced M9FV piston engine, an up-to-date avionics suite and a number of design and systems improvements aimed at enhancing the operating efficiency and reliability as well as extending the service life of the aircraft. This, coupled with a reasonable price, is going to help the Mi-34C1 to get a good niche on the market.


Russian Helicopters Mi-34C1 programme manager Dmitry Rodin told Take-off that Mil Helicopter Plant now completing two Mi-34C1 prototypes. One of them, the OP-1, is slated for the maiden flight in June to be followed by the other, the OP-2. Both Mi-34C1 prototypes will be displayed during the MAKS 2011 air show in August, one to be demonstrated as part of the flight programme and the other as a static display. The Mi-34C1 is to complete its certification programme by year-end.

On 19 May, during the HeliRussia 2011, the Russian Helicopters holding company landed its first order for the advanced machine after the launch customer UTair had placed an order for ten Mi-34C1 helicopters for its training centre. The deliveries are slated to kick off in 2012. In addition, the show saw an agreement signed by the French company Aero Progress, the latter intent on promoting the Mi-34C1 on the European market. The signatories believe the helicopter can be needed in the West, since it features a number of advantages over the popular Eurocopter EC120. The first two Mi-34C1s are planned for delivery to the French company in 2013.

Source: http://en.take-off.ru/news/102-feb2011/616-mi-34c1snagsfirstorders-20-2011

I suspect it might be a reciprocal agreement where Russia buys these two French helos and France helps market Mi-34Cs for the lighter helicopter market in Europe.

As long as the French helos are made in Russia in a factory Russia gets to keep then I think this could be good for both parties.

Certainly when compared with other areas of the Russian MIC the Russian helicopter industry actually appears to be relatively healthy and will likely deliver over 500 helicopters to the Russian military alone by 2020, and exports in some weight classes is very good.

New Helos like the Mi-34C and the Berkut offer potential in the light and very light helicopter market with very competitive prices.

I read that Russia has successfully bought Catherine TIS through Algeria despite EU sanctions without much problem. Would it be possible for Russia to acquire western ship engines the same way?

From defencepolicyasia:

Ever since Russia was sanctioned for their involvement in the Crimean war, France was bound by those sanctions to not supply weapons and technology to Russia. Joint developments between French and Russian weapon industries made Russian weapons more competitive in the market, without which Russian arms industry would slowly starve.

French and Russian cooperation benefited the Russian arms industry that employs nearly three million people, and French industrialists seeking to ramp up against stiffening competition in the global market. Restructuring of several French defence conglomerates to remain competitive took place amidst new and powerful entrants from Israel, China, Russia, Brazil, South Africa, and other Asian powers. France is currently the world’s third largest arms exporter but they constantly have to juggle between political prudence and employment back home.

To get around the sanctions, Russia went through a number of third party countries via joint ventures to have France supply directly to these third party projects rather than have these sensors assembled inside Russia, as such actions are barred by sanctions. The plan is to have the French install these sensors at the customer’s base when the Russian made vehicles arrive.

The Algerian-Russian joint venture to assemble T-90s in Algeria is one such example. Thales, according to some reports, has agreed to supply components for these Russian made tanks only if they are assembled in Algeria. OJSC Peleng, a Belorussian company that makes fire control systems and sensors for the Russian military, have been in close cooperation with French companies to provide components for their sensors used in Russian made tanks for export. In all, the sanctions had negligible effect for armoured vehicle sales and were nothing more than a nuisance.

Thats describing T-90s for Algeria being assembled in Algeria.
Are you saying that was fake & foreign components wound up in Russia?

Similar scheme I think exists for Indian Su-30 production & the 11356es to be completed/built in India for India are supposed to be getting Ukrainian engines/gearboxes that were ordered by Russia but have been un-delivered post-coup.

You might be able to use that kind of scheme for naval engines once maybe twice but not in any sustainable way.

Better is domestic production &/or analogue replacement like the Chinese license-produced diesels being used on Buyan-M.

Marine engines are a technology Russia would benefit from developing and they have several competent companies that develop engines.... Saturn and Klimov leap to mind immediately that could have been making said engines for decades if there was no other company in the Soviet Union already making them.

Engines are not trivial things and as problems with Chinese copies of German engines if you don't get them right they don't work very well, but that is just design and materials and experience.

You need strong durable parts in certain places which makes them more expensive but it is worth it. You could make the entire engine out of such materials but that just makes it more expensive, but wont necessarily make the engine more durable... harder parts can shatter in some temperature conditions more easily than softer parts.

I am sure the Chinese will get it right, but it makes sense for Russia to make their own engines and master development and production on their own... it will take time but it is worth it because a good family of scalable engines can be used at sea and on land including diesels and gas turbines.

From what they are saying they should be able to make new maritime engines and gearboxes already... it might take a few years to ramp up production and get the design and materials right so reliability might be an issue, but that is normal, and at least when Russia pays for engines it will get them...

The Russians were quite a bit behind in thermal imager technology because the Soviets focussed on low light level TV system like the EO system in the Su25TM and Ka-50 Shkval-M and Shkval-K... such technology is also used in autotracking systems in Kornet and Pantsir etc so it was valuable, but they bought thermal sights from all over the place including Sweden and South Africa and France.

They now can produce their own models which are top quality world class systems... the new thermals for the Armata vehicles and new close in thermals for their helos offering 360 degree coverage for detecting targets on the ground and for landing and taking off show they no longer need foreign assistance there. Of course foreign countries might prefer French thermals because that is what they use.

hoom wrote:Thats describing T-90s for Algeria being assembled in Algeria.
Are you saying that was fake & foreign components wound up in Russia?

Similar scheme I think exists for Indian Su-30 production & the 11356es to be completed/built in India for India are supposed to be getting Ukrainian engines/gearboxes that were ordered by Russia but have been un-delivered post-coup.

You might be able to use that kind of scheme for naval engines once maybe twice but not in any sustainable way.

Better is domestic production &/or analogue replacement like the Chinese license-produced diesels being used on Buyan-M.

What about letting India buy the frigates and then purchase them back. It would be completely legal. Also, what are the differences between military ship turbines and civilian ones?

Would it be possible to reverse engineer an MTU turbine? If not, then how was the Rolls Royce Nene, which is a much more complex engine based on physical principles, reverse engineered in the late 40s?

GarryB wrote:Marine engines are a technology Russia would benefit from developing and they have several competent companies that develop engines.... Saturn and Klimov leap to mind immediately that could have been making said engines for decades if there was no other company in the Soviet Union already making them.

Engines are not trivial things and as problems with Chinese copies of German engines if you don't get them right they don't work very well, but that is just design and materials and experience.

You need strong durable parts in certain places which makes them more expensive but it is worth it. You could make the entire engine out of such materials but that just makes it more expensive, but wont necessarily make the engine more durable... harder parts can shatter in some temperature conditions more easily than softer parts.

I am sure the Chinese will get it right, but it makes sense for Russia to make their own engines and master development and production on their own... it will take time but it is worth it because a good family of scalable engines can be used at sea and on land including diesels and gas turbines.

From what they are saying they should be able to make new maritime engines and gearboxes already... it might take a few years to ramp up production and get the design and materials right so reliability might be an issue, but that is normal, and at least when Russia pays for engines it will get them...

The Russians were quite a bit behind in thermal imager technology because the Soviets focussed on low light level TV system like the EO system in the Su25TM and Ka-50 Shkval-M and Shkval-K... such technology is also used in autotracking systems in Kornet and Pantsir etc so it was valuable, but they bought thermal sights from all over the place including Sweden and South Africa and France.

They now can produce their own models which are top quality world class systems... the new thermals for the Armata vehicles and new close in thermals for their helos offering 360 degree coverage for detecting targets on the ground and for landing and taking off show they no longer need foreign assistance there. Of course foreign countries might prefer French thermals because that is what they use.

At this point isn't the problem simply lack of industrial capacity and competent workforce pool, as we have seen with the failure to supply engines from Zvezda on time?