Non-sense on russian military equipment

China's problem is that it has been living off the copy and paste crack for too long. Time to get in gear and solve the problems
indigenously. That will result in more competent engineers and better quality control.

But China is too busy trash talking Russian military equipment to "win" some export market to focus on the right priorities.
No amount of smear aimed at Russian equipment will obscure 2nd rate performance of Chinese knock-offs.

Sounds more like someone trying to get a better price on the next batch....

kvs wrote:China's problem is that it has been living off the copy and paste crack for too long.  Time to get in gear and solve the problems
indigenously.   That will result in more competent engineers and better quality control.

But China is too busy trash talking Russian military equipment to "win" some export market to focus on the right priorities.
No amount of smear aimed at Russian equipment will obscure 2nd rate performance of Chinese knock-offs.

Its all down to the contract with the Chinese. Specify cheap and you get it, specify high quality and it can be the best in the World, like Apple/Lenovo etc etc.

They have 'got into gear' and, as an example, Huawei which has been around over 30 years and is now spending $10B+ a year on R&D, more than anyone else, anywhere, and that is copying no-one. Now they are World leaders, at the bleeding edge of networks, especially 5G, technology. OK they copied Cisco/Netgear etc at the start (nothing like a bit of open source code to help, we used it) but copy and improve is a very valid strategy when you are driven and starting from nothing. Their students, who seem to be bright, are being taught at the best places in the West and taking that background home.

In defence, when you have the manpower, sometimes simple is good and the quality is in the quantity. We have no idea what their base technological capability is but we can be sure that it is improving fast.

This is what really pisses the US off, a country that isn't one of their vassals is getting ahead and out of their control with none of their back doors. Then all the vassals have to join in the condemnations.

But, as I said at the top of the page and Garry has just seconded, this looks like a potential strategy to get a better price on more Su-35s, if Russia has the capacity to make them of course.

No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best. Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles. Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

It's all a joke.

miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

It's all a joke.

If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

JohninMK wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

It's all a joke.

If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

You make the invalid assumption that the QA on Chinese mobile phones is high.

1) You have no idea what their actual failure and defect rate is. How much of Apple's production line is trashed before making out
the door. Sweatshops allow for such waste since the primary cost of production is labour and not materials. It is vastly more
difficult to apply such filtering to military equipment.

2) You have no idea what defect rate Apple garbage has in North America and elsewhere even after being filtered for non-functional
junk. I see plenty of evidence that Apple's products (e.g. laptops) are junk given the repair videos on Youtube.

3) Consumer junk is not equivalent to SAMs, jet engines and control systems of military products. People are technologically
illiterate.

4) Where it counts, China has not exhibited domestic innovation and ability to deliver. Take the Su-27 jet engines that China
has been reverse-engineering for about 25 years. You have no evidence that Chinese jet engines are at the same level or better
than those of Russia.

5) Dirty advertising is proof that Chinese military products are inferior to Russian ones. Talking about price reflecting quality
is pure nonsense. Good luck getting "what you paid for". The recent crop of BMW and Porsche engines demonstrate that
high price does not imply high quality and reliability.

BTW, to reply to the expected pooh-pooing. If reverse engineering of Soviet and Russian tech was a walk in the park, then
the yanquis would have already developed a replacement for the RD-180. They have been trying since the 1990s and still have
not delivered. But they sure talk a lot about a replacement being just around the corner.

Yet somehow China is just magically able to bootstrap its military hardware from zero with no R&D and lots of trash talk
about Russian tech. They really should STFU.

JohninMK wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

It's all a joke.

If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

I would say something but it seems KVS said it all for me.

And let me tell you, a circuit board with a processor created elsewhere and a display created elsewhere, assembling them, isn't a great feat.  Only reason why no one else does it because people want cheap shit and nothing is cheaper than China currently. I mean, people can wish for Foxconn to open a plant in their yard but lets be real, I dont. Cause I dont want to know that people in my area are jumping out the windows to their deaths due to poor working conditions and lack of a labour code.

JohninMK wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

It's all a joke.

If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

Every thechnologyin their Huawei was created by Samsung or Apple. They are totally dependant on google/android. They offer nothing more despit investing so much in r&d.

A wrong assumption made by many is that the one that copies will "improve" the copied item and make it a better item. That's wrong. Specially with such advanced technology as electronics. Why is it wrong ? Because they don't "copy" it totally. It's impossible. A bit like looking a video of a top chief making a perfect cake and trying to copy him. If 90% of the time you only cook eggs, you won't be able to do as good as the chief.

Huawei is successfull only because it was cheap but it certainly doesn't lead anything. Now they have reached the level of Apple they will be hit by a new "Huawei" company producig the same phone for half cheaper.

miketheterrible wrote:

I would say something but it seems KVS said it all for me.

I don't know what you guys life experiences are. All I will say is that me and two mates started a very advanced modem design company in 1986 and were the first in the World to make a V32 modem with all our own code on the then new M56000 DSP. I have been in the data communications hardware business ever since with one of our products made in China. I stand by my comment, in the right circumstances the Chinese make stunning products.

As to Huawei, who owns most of the key patents on 5G and please tell who they copied them from?

Garry, get this into Talking Bollocks please.

The talking bollocks is you. You assume because they managed to be half decent at mass producing some crap doesn't mean the failure rate isn't high in their production chain.

My experience is having to support the shit they make for industrial production and let me tell you, it's shit. German shit isn't much better though.

In our research group we got a low latency high bandwidth cluster interconnect switch. This is an expensive performance
part made by one of the leaders in the field and not a consumer item. The power supply failed a few hours after it was powered
up. We had to get the whole unit swapped. It was made in China.

Where all the love for Chinese production comes from is hard to understand. Dismissing the empirical evidence is not a reasonable
viewpoint.

Again, from personal experience, there are a lot of Chinese scientists who should have gone into other careers. The cultural
pressure to get a science degree generates a lot of low skill scientists who crowd out the better ones. Another pathology in
China is that they have the master professor boss paradigm. This is a very outdated and feudal concept where some pasha
professor is surrounded by minions doing his bidding. No, it is nothing like the western (and Russian to some extent) model where
the prof is a supervisor and not a master with serfs. So the master prof has a herd of researchers that are used to generate a large
number of research papers where the real contribution of the prof is marginal at best and the real contributors often do not
even get their name on the paper. In the western system the graduate students and postdocs can actually write first-author
papers even if they are supervised by a bigger name and he/she gives them valuable input.

But the focus should be on the trash talking by Chinese propaganda mouthpieces about the inferiority of Russian military equipment.
I demand to see proof and not "proof by assertion" by hacks. Until such time, no benefit of the doubt and plausibility arguments
have any value.

Yes. We aren't saying Chinese are dumb and unable to perform well. We are simply saying with the flood of cheap tech, cheap labor and cheap scientists, it really stifles development by the real good scientists and developers in China. The major companies in China aren't interested in high quality as it becomes too expensive to make. Like Germany and their industrial production. They like to think it is still high tech and quality but in reality it isn't and it survives off of people's piss poor memory of German quality. So really, I give China credit since they can make a lot of decent stuff. But reverse engineering crap doesn't make it good either just because a company like Huawei is able to make 5G gear

I can remember when Japanese cars were all considered crap and there was a lot of hostility to them here.

By about the mid to late 1980s the Japanese started making some very very good cars... the european cars were and remain pretty terrible in terms of cost and reliability here. Very expensive to buy and to fix, and not really worth the extra money.

In comparison to push the Japanese car industries they implemented legislation in Japan that made owning a car more than 3 or four years old rather expensive, so they go in to the habit of buying new models all the time and not using them very long which drove Japanese car exports for used cars... barely used cars...

They were high quality and cheap... I remember going from a Mk 4 Ford Cortina to a Toyota Corona and it was like day and night. The Cortina at high revs in top gear (4th) could do about 110km/h on the motorway... in comparison the Japanese car was much faster, much quieter... and driving at night was totally different.

The Cortina had two standard lights but was always fitted with extra sports lights and with all four turned on the view at night was pathetic... most of the time you couldn't tell they were on where there were street lights... the Toyotas lights were outstanding... I didn't like driving at night in the cortina because of the poor headlights. Every time it went for a warrant it cost money because something had to be fixed... the Toyota just needed fuel and the water and oil topped up occasionally.

I have a friend who loved British cars... he had about a dozen vehicles, but most of the time half of them weren't in a running condition...

The Chinese have a reputation of being blind copiers... which is ironic considering most countries copy ideas anyway.

I think the Chinese have as much potential as the Japanese did... I mean the Japanese still make expensive copies of US products even to this day but they rarely get shit for that.

Will move this stuff to the usual thread.

GarryB wrote:I can remember when Japanese cars were all considered crap and there was a lot of hostility to them here.

By about the mid to late 1980s the Japanese started making some very very good cars... the european cars were and remain pretty terrible in terms of cost and reliability here. Very expensive to buy and to fix, and not really worth the extra money.

In comparison to push the Japanese car industries they implemented legislation in Japan that made owning a car more than 3 or four years old rather expensive, so they go in to the habit of buying new models all the time and not using them very long which drove Japanese car exports for used cars... barely used cars...

They were high quality and cheap... I remember going from a Mk 4 Ford Cortina to a Toyota Corona and it was like day and night. The Cortina at high revs in top gear (4th) could do about 110km/h on the motorway... in comparison the Japanese car was much faster, much quieter... and driving at night was totally different.

The Cortina had two standard lights but was always fitted with extra sports lights and with all four turned on the view at night was pathetic... most of the time you couldn't tell they were on where there were street lights... the Toyotas lights were outstanding... I didn't like driving at night in the cortina because of the poor headlights. Every time it went for a warrant it cost money because something had to be fixed... the Toyota just needed fuel and the water and oil topped up occasionally.

I have a friend who loved British cars... he had about a dozen vehicles, but most of the time half of them weren't in a running condition...

The Chinese have a reputation of being blind copiers... which is ironic considering most countries copy ideas anyway.

I think the Chinese have as much potential as the Japanese did... I mean the Japanese still make expensive copies of US products even to this day but they rarely get shit for that.

Will move this stuff to the usual thread.

i further moved it here partner!

Ta, will notify others where it has gone in the original thread... this is indeed a more suitable location...

I find the typical crap that saturates pro western military media too sickening to be worth trudging through for laughs, as I am sure many of you do aswell, so I Thought it be a good idea to create a thread in order to document all of the most hilarious and retarded pro western comments for the sake of all thoes who wish to have a good laugh at the expense of thoes morons.

This could also help people who are on the fence realise just how bad the west's pathological lying, delusion and stupidity is.

Sadly I cannot recall where to find any particularly good examples of such comments but I will post any I find over here.

The-thing-next-door wrote:I find the typical crap that saturates pro western military media too sickening to be worth trudging through for laughs, as I am sure many of you do aswell, so I Thought it be a good idea to create a thread in order to document all of the most hilarious and retarded pro western comments for the sake of all thoes who wish to have a good laugh at the expense of thoes morons.

This could also help people who are on the fence realise just how bad the west's pathological lying, delusion and stupidity is.

Sadly I cannot recall where to find any particularly good examples of such comments but I will post any I find over here.

Current times at least are good for laughs, we can find tons of them

OK but to be clear posting crap here does not mean the person who posts it endorses or agrees with the content... therefore if you agree with something stupid do not post it here and try to defend it when it gets abuse... post it somewhere else to learn why it is not true.

Well I was really hoping we would all be laughing our heads of in here by now, oh well I guess I will post something I found.


This man's videos, while not too hilariously retarded are perhaps good for a few laughs and some fun mockery.







As delusional as he is he somehow actually understands the purpose of nuclear weapons as opposed to spouting condecending bullshit about the mythical "Russian aggression" whenever a defensive action is taken, but do not get wrong he is still a delusional moron.

The one thing I find particularly hilarious is that he thinks a few primitive computer chips are some wunderwaffe that will alow obsolete ASHMs to bypass Russian air defence system, it is not at all like Russian missiles have computer chips aswell is it.....

Then we get to the second part of it, he seriously thinks that supersonic missiles cannot take evasive maneuvers, what a retard.

Can you imagine how great his surprise will be if he learns about the maneuvering hypersonic missiles the russian armed forces already have?

The funny thing is that these "analysts" are just using the ambient fake stream media noise as their base of knowledge. So this clown thinks that Russia is
unable to make CPUs for military purposes that do the job. He is probably one of those idiots that thinks that 7 nm general microprocessors from Intel and AMD
are needed. He probably does not understand what an FPGA is or that 1990s CPUs are more than enough. Nobody runs massively parallel neural network
AI in any missile system. That's sci-fi.

Another common thread with these self-anointed "experts" is that they are all wallowing in wishful thinking and projection. They cannot handle that their
"enemies" can actually kick their asses. Their ego is over-invested in their "exceptional" country. A lot of people live vicariously through countries and I
have to admit that I am at least partly guilty of that. But I don't get into a bubble of delusion over it.

Hole wrote:Can you imagine how great his surprise will be if he learns about the maneuvering hypersonic missiles the russian armed forces already have?

The problem with people like him is that they are all suckling at the fake stream media tit.  CNN et al. routinely denigrate Russian mental capacity and make up
all sorts of cheesy BS about how Russia cannot into tech.    By now this BS is not even funny, it is totally out of date.   You can see the same conditioning
of Pavlov's dogs when it comes to Trump's ban on "high tech" electronics exports to China.   All sorts of credulous saps actually believe that China cannot
import substitute.   China has been near the leading edge of IC design and production for 10 years.    As with Russia in the case of military engine imports
replacement, it can both make the fabrication equipment and the ICs themselves.    China is actually able to manufacture with sub 10 nm lithography.

In fact I don't think those are, not even by far, the worst Western military videos I have seen, the guy admits very clearly that they lag badly behind Russian in AShM. He makes though a big effort trying to excuse some terrible US military planing and lack of supersonic anti-ship technology, but with little success. It seems he has not yet heard about Oniks and keeps repeating arguments that apply to extremely old soviet missiles. The argument of saying Russians have "abandoned" supersonic missiles and now practically "copy" the Harpoon with the Kh-35 was really unfortunate.

The military value of the supersonic AShMs is rather trivial: a faster missile flying low leaves the target essentially no time to react (unless airborne radars are available) and creates a huge loophole in the AD logic so that the effectiveness of the interceptors does not even matter, because they don't have time to be launched or in very little numbers. Also the targeting is much better since the ship has no time to change position nearly as much vs a faster missile as it can be the case against a subsonic one and hence EW effort is rendered practically useless.

What is always funny to see is that they justify the Russian / Soviet defensive posture in the fact that they didn't have the same resources US had, it is the same mindset we see in this and other forums from some American users, assuming, sincerely, that a country CANNOT willingly have a non predatory and imperialistic approach to foreign policy. Says really a lot about the moral standards Western civilization has reached after some centuries of world domination.

LMFS wrote:In fact I don't think those are, not even by far, the worst Western military videos I have seen

I know, I used his videos because they have a bunch or silly and retarded points as opposed to the usual demented stream of nothing but retarded lies. So in essence I chose videos that are more fun to make fun of.

Retarded lies can be hilarious at times, but only when they are really exceptionally stupid, otherwise it is just a boring stream of wasted words. The best is when a retard will try to explain something.

Anyway I noticed that this idiot was calling that nazi guided bomb "the first anti ship missile" and then as if that was not enough he mentions the wrong missile when talking about the first Soviet ASHM.